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Just wondering.., based on your SB list, it seems your meta doesn't have combo or you just accept the fact that when your up against combo its good game for you. You also have 5 sb vs creature based decks.., i thought you don't have problems with them..Quote:
Originally Posted by TossUsToLions
This is the common sideboard debate. Accept losses and make sure that your good matchups are even better, or try and cover everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
You're right, there is little combo in my meta, except for dredge, where I bring in 7 cards. I also have the singleton Ooze main. The rest of the decks that I play against are mostly NO Rug, Merfolk, Zoo, Stoneblade, and Bant.
Aggro is a good matchup, but my SB makes it even better. Some decks, such as Affinity, Gobbos, and Zoo can actually be tough in reality. In theory they seem great, but things don't always work out like they should. For example, Gobbos seems like an easy matchup because you can just Stoneforge for a Jitte, right? Well what if you don't have a SFM in your starting hand? What if they have first turn Lackey, and an Incinerator for your first turn drop? GG? With SB, I now have more answers to their first turn play (PtE) and a card that basically auto-wins me the game (Dueling Ground).
Ic.. nice meta hahaha, lucky you, as for me im currently running this SBQuote:
Originally Posted by TossUsToLions
3 chalice of the void
2 thorn of amethyst
2 gaddock teeg
1 path to exile
2 choke
2 jotun grunt
1 bojuka bog
2 xx still don't know yet.
currently im thinking of the following for the last 2 slots:
1 stoneforge - vs mirror or any aggro decks
1 pte / wingshards
1 choke / tsunami / armageddon - vs control decks
Im still not sure of the grunt slot but why i decide to pick grunt is bec, he is good vs gy decks and zoo, while relic or tormods is only good for gy decks. I know ghostly prison or dueling grounds would be good aswell for both zoo and a GY specific deck like ichorid.. but i wanted a threat and not a preventive solution to the problem.
I'm little sceptically about how good Path to Exile is in this deck, specially in world of Missteps. We play wastelands, this plan isn't working together. I suggest to use Wing Shards with Missteps. Wing Shards can take out protected creatures and works good with Flash creatures most of the time its game breaking, it dodge missteps which is common in almost all decks.
Let me show little analysis which creature need to be took off in first turn:
- Noble Hierarch/BoP/any other mana dude - ramp is always bad on opponent side
- Goblin Lackey - if not StP its really nasty
- Confidant from Mox Diamond - CA in opponent
- Mother of Runes
- Servant Painter from Sol Land
And here list ended in first turn.
Other dudes, are in later turns
Ok lets see how PtE works on them:
- Mana Dudes - Pure Card Disadvantage on our side - not worth
- Goblin Lackey - Giving mana to Goblins is almost as bad as free Gob in play
- Dark Confidant - here it works
- MoR - works also, but impact isn't great its almost as free basic land in play
- Servant Painter - here it works
So after first look it's mostly not working. Note also that its 1 cmc which mean - can be easily missteped.
When PtE is worth ? In late game vs Big dudes as opposite KotRs/Stalker/Goyf. But in latet game we have mostly a lot of mana and wing shards can be useful the same with option as 2/3 for 1.
It also dodge nasty protection for example Progenitus which can be problematic if cheated enough fast or with enough support.
And here is analysis after testing Beast Within:
Works well vs:
- Deedstills
- Mostly Jaces
- KotRs
- Enchantress
- Painter Servant
mostly everything which doesn't use too much creatures, 3/3 dude isn't problematic. But it's situational card, being on instant can be used on many ways:
- In response to Deed Blow
- At End of turn as 3/3 dude
- In combat as fog or blocker
- As catch all answer vs enchantress
- As Stone Rain when opponent is screwed
- As 3/3 hasty creature when opponent is on low life
- In resp to Standstill
But probably more testing is needed here to improve this card - its situational.
Also I loved EE as one of in E.Tutor, I found that our table is mostly cost diversity It can be used as 2 for 1 Surgical Deed :], and also nice vs EtW/Zombie/Thopter cleaner. It also can dodge Missteps, and other cost restrictions.
@fatal
wing shards is really great but sometimes you need targeted removals, all the points you've pointed out are correct but the chances of you having to draw an early pte is very low as to use it early on, thats why most of the pte users i think only uses 1-2 on the SB.
@_erbs_
Please give me examples are they other then in simple analysis wrote upper ?
I should also add Dredge deck where PtE are very good.
Btw: Good news for us, again we are King of the Hill in DtB in TCDecks meta analysis.
Normally a WG packs 4 stp and 1-2-3 pte on the SB, now the chances of drawing pte over stp in any parts of the game is slightly lower, even if you get a pte early you will still kill key targets with it. Like grim lavamancer which will seldom attack left unkilled can easily kill all your creatures. An active knight of the reliquary can wreck your manabase or filter your opponents library. Same goes for bob, which will not attack unless you have no blockers. Those scenarios for me are much important over a sure kill via wing shards, which costs double white and 1 generic mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
You are right about drawback in cost in Wing Shards.
Bob is also good example mention before, but GW have really good mana base, most of time playing vs Wastelands you can mostly always fetch basics, so this example doesn't convince me.
Lavamancer can be pain here also you have right, but think a little about PtE drawback which can be really game changing. For example vs NO RUG, Pathing first turn Lavamancer gives +1 turn to cast NO which can be trouble to handle. In this MU I would always want Wing Shards instead of PtE.
Ok, let see other deck which use Lavamancer - Zoo it its 50/50 MU most important are KotRs/StP in this MU. PtE on first turn Lavamancer can speed them out and destroy mana daniel plan vs them. Recycling KotR isn't scary. Bad is second turn KotR with our Cad Disadvantage (PtE is CD).
I never wasn't fan of PtE but now in the world of Missteps they lost much more. Actually I'm missing good isntant speed, point removal for 1W without drawback. As long as we don't get any of it, I would probably use Wing Shards on sb which are also good vs Prog/Protect - but remember that is my personal opinion, I wrote why I think this way, if anybody has other opinions share with your arguments.
There are:
Journey to Nowhere
Oblivion Ring
Last Breath
Lignify
Soul Snare
as options.
I really like berserk with beater decks and see a lot of upside with creatures like Rafiq, KoR, Goyf, and maybe even Terravore.
Has anyone done testing with berserk in this deck/archetype ?
Edit: correct typo and add Rafiq in place of Crusader.
If you want to kill early Lackey/Confidant/Hierarch/Painter - maybe Sunlance?
Berserk + Mirran Crusader = No.
I meant rafiq, appologies.
Long time lurker, 1st time poster. I play local tourneys about once a month, but I'm not sure w/ the meta how to shape the sideboard and some main deck choices. I'm not sold on the ooze, ppl over value new cards. The meta is all merfolk, goblins and silly decks(high tide, lands, hive mind, ant and dredge). Half of the time the opponent is playing a single colored deck, heavy on the merfolk.
4 mother of runes
4 noble hierarch
2 scryb ranger
2 tarmogoyf*
4 stone forge mystic
2 qasali pridemage
1 eternal witness
4 knight of the reliquary
1 thrun*the last troll
4 green sun's zenith
4 swords to plowshares
2 sylvan library
1 batterskull
1 sword of light and shadow
1 jitte
1 elspeth, the knight errant
3 wasteland
4 windswept Heath
2 misty rain forest
2 horizon canopy
4 Savannah*
2 forest
2 plains
1 dryad arbor
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
Sb
2 Krosan grip
2 phyrexian revoker*
2 path to exile
3 thorn of amethyst*
1 bodjuka bog
2 Dueling grounds*
1 enlightened tutor
2 kitchen finks
Ooze is worth his prize.
Let analysis your meta:
Merfolks - + 3 Mental Misstep
Goblins - + 1 Jitte (you can play 2 MD it still worth) + 3 Mental Misstep
Lands - + 3 Mental Misstep, + 1 Wasteland, + 1 Ooze
Dredge - + 3 Mental Misstep + 1 Gaddock Teeg
Hive Mind - + 3 Mental Misstep + 1 Gaddock Teeg
ANT - + 3 Mental Misstep + 1 Gaddock Teeg
Total:
+ 3 Mental Misstep
+ 1 Umezawa's Jitte
+ 1 Wasteland
+ 1 Ooze
+ 1 Gaddock Teeg
Those cards could be helpful MD.
Now think what we can replace:
You didn't post any control decks as BUG Still, or U/w Control so:
- 2 Sylvan Library
- 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
- Savannah/or plains adding one more fetchland, and then add one more land best will be on one MoR which are poor against Combo
- 1 Tarmogoyf - one really enough, its mostly a wall which doesn't do too much
- 1 SoLS - I don't see here any controls, or Aggro Mirrors where this sword shin so second Jitte would be much better vs Goblins/Fish
1 More slots needed, I suggest MoR slot, to improve MU vs Combo/Dredge and other things where see is medicore.
Now SB plans:
Fish:
+ 2 Dueling Grounds its really enough, sometimes ppl put also Chokes which working on Controls, but I think its not needed here.
+ 2 Path to Exile
- 1 Ooze
- Gaddock Teeg - it depends on opponent SB plan if he using Submerge Gaddock Should stay - in this situation probably Thrun is the worst one due to high cost
- 1 Qasali Pridemage - yes, vs Opponent Jitte we have second Jitte so better fetch Jitte with SFM and be sure it will resolve, 1 QP enough
- 1 Thinking about last slot here it depends on your play style but probably I would took of Eternal Witness 6 spot removal is easily enough and not needed to fetching them.
Your opponent sb plan in this MU - mostly:
- Submerge
- Umezawa's Jitte
- Sower of Temptation
- Threads of Disloyalty
- Dismember
- Mind Harness
The most dangerous is Submerge, your strategy is to fetch Scryb as soon as possible and equip it, removing threads (Lords) from point removal.
Goblins
Similar to Folks but I wouldn't add Path to Exile.
So:
+ 2 Dueling Grounds
- 1 Gaddock Teeg - dead card in this MU
- 1 Thrun - he is just to slow
Opponent SB plan:
-Pyrokinesis - don't think that Gaddock can save you from it, with such a heavy removal deck it will die to Gemplam mostly
- Perish - if he runs B splash
Strategy - Similar to Folks Jitte - Go they can't handle fast jitte. With Dueling Backup, you can also add E.Tutor to stabilize Duelings.
High Tide:
Basically he can't go with Gaddock on table, but he can answer it by Cuning Wish - Snap/Chain of Vapor/any other bounce (if MoR is on table with Split Second), the most important here is to Fetch Gaddock asap and clock with Mental Missteps countering cantrips. Important is first turn drop + GSZ + Beater and number of MM on hand.
SB plan:
+3 Thorn of Amethyst
+1 E. Tutor
-4 StP
More hate on table mean more time for beating, if your hand doesn't contain hate or very fast clock - ship it.
SB in opponent:
- Snap
- Hibernation
- Repeal - this card is garbage as soon as Gaddock hit the table.
I like Rafiq in this MU which can be really nice dmg dealer - but it depends on your play style.
Lands:
This MU isn't so bad as most ppl think key are wastelands, Hierarchs and our MD hate - Ooze
SB plan:
+ 1 Bojuka Bog
+ 3 Thorn of Amethyst
- 3 StP
- 1 Maze of Ith
I would add one Tormod's Crypt to SB in slot of Kitchen Finks - they're mostly used vs hard aggro as Zoo, which isn't present in your meta. Crypt would improve Lands/Dredge/ANT MU.
Opponent SB plan:
+ Zuran Orb
+ Bojuka if not in MD
+ Tabrnacle - 2 total
+ EE/Oblivion Stone
Strategy is easy, Fetch Ooze and sculpt his engine, MM his ramp (Exploration/Manabond) avoid Mindslaver/Scapeshift (depends on their win con) with Gaddock Teeg, Waste thier tabernacle. Remember that Gaddock Teeg also stops EE, look out for Oblivion Stone if he runing it use Revokers it also works well vs Zuran Orb, but mostly Pithing Needle would be better here (can name Maze).
Hive Mind:
Its bad MU, key to victory is clock and disrupt - Wastelands, Gaddock Teeg, MM cantrips, blow up Grim Monoliths - first game is hard to win, but not impossible - depends on your opponent hand. If he made mistake and use Emrakul as wincon he lose.
Game 2 depends how many hate you have. Best weapon - for sure Angel's Grace, but it's too narrow mostly so:
+ 3 Thorn of Amethyst
+ 1 Enlightened Tutor
+ 2 Krosan Grip
- 2 Scryb Ranger
- 4 StP
Card which is missing is Ethersworn Canonist, also you can replace one Hierarch to Birds of Paradise to have a changes for paying pacts - its little change, but sometimes worth.
Canonist stops S&T hive Mind plan, if you can blow it up. I also use Aven Mindcensors which works well vs Intuition.
Opponent SB:
Firespout
Ancient Grudge
As soon as you stick KotR on table with any hate its win.
Dredge:
This MU isn't bad. I played about 10 Dredge players this year on tournament and never lost which is my really good record. Important is starting hand.
your Sb:
+ 1 Bojuka Bog
+ 2 Dueling Grounds
+ 2 Path to Exile
+ 1 E.Tutor
-2 Scryb Ranger
-1 Eternal Witness
-1 Thrun
-1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 MoR - do nothing, only stall which is bad vs Dredge
Key is MMs, Wastelands, Jitte, GY hate,Gaddock, KotRs. Don't forgot that you can recycle Dryad Arbor to blow up Bridges, Sculpt GY with Ooze, Stick Grounds and the wins is yours.
Opponent SB plan:
-Firestorm
-Ancient Grudge
Firestorms can be pain, but MM can really mess up his plans. Also Ooze sculpting important things in GY.
Remember that Amoeba triggers from GY you can Remove it with Ooze in resp to its trigger.
ANT:
An other independent from us MU, but isn't so bad with good MD.
Key to victory - Manadrop + GSZ + Misstep. Or just good clock + Missteps. Most of them can't deal with Gaddock G1 - its our window to win.
SB plan:
+3 Torn of Amethyst
+1 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Bojuka Bog
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
-2 Scryb Ranger
-1 Thrun
-2 StP - sometimes life matter..
-2 Qasali Pridemage
Again missing Tormod's Crypt which mostly avoid IGG plan which is prime vs Aggro, also Canonist would help.
His sb:
+ Chain of Vapor
+ Echoing Truth
+ More bounce/Slaughter Pact
Ok so there are advice based on upper analysis to SB:
+ 1 Tormod's Crypt - Improve Dredge, ANT, Lands MU
+ 1 Ethersworn Canonist Improve Hive Mind, ANT, Spiral MU
+ 1-2 Angel's Greace/Sundial of the Infinite, Improve Hive Mind MU which is hard here.
Slots to replace:
-2 Kitchen Finks - they're slow and doesn't bring to much its only good vs fast Zoo/Burn MU
-2 phyrexian Revoker - not working so good, can be used vs Goblins and Fishes but its only soft hate, and easily to took off.
I hope it helps :)
Hell yeah, it does alot, thanks. but in the interest of using your adivice properly, are you advocating, dropping the Mothers for the Missteps? a friend of mine, playtested it like crazy in Deadguy Ale and never seemed great crammed in a non Blue deck
You can simple replace one Savannah for one Tropical but it's not necessary paying 2 life is almost always worth that tempo.
DeadAle Guy is diffrent deck, much more incosistant than GW. Also note that:
6-7 Fetchlands + 4 Hierarchs are about 10-11 Blue source - mostly enough. It fits to this deck, Mom need mana to be played this doesn't. MM improve bad MU - mostly Combo, but works also good vs a lot of things. Playtest them you will see that MoR isn't so great. It only wait for tap to get removal in respond, it doesn't attack nor stops important things. Sure she can be good in midrange mirror, but MM are just better in my eyes for being free with bigger spectrum.
Best for you will be testing :)
Side in Gaddock Teeg vs. Lands as well. Actually, you should have 1 maindeck anyways. Against Lands, it shuts down Smokestack/Mindslaver but most importantly, Engineered Explosives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
Yes, I was metion that later just didn't wrote that upper:
Quote:
Strategy is easy, Fetch Ooze and sculpt his engine, MM his ramp (Exploration/Manabond) avoid Mindslaver/Scapeshift (depends on their win con) with Gaddock Teeg, Waste thier tabernacle. Remember that Gaddock Teeg also stops EE, look out for Oblivion Stone if he runing it use Revokers it also works well vs Zuran Orb, but mostly Pithing Needle would be better here (can name Maze).
Hello,
I have recently built a maverick deck since i really like the idea of fetching utility cards. Ive been following this thread for some time now but im still a bit confused on how to play it. I know its a difficult deck to play and i would really appreciate it if I could get feedbacks, thanks!
here are some scenarios that im still not sure on what to do.
-if i have a chance to ramp a kotr should i play it? what if i have sfm in hand, which to play first?
-if i get "out muscled" by my opponent via multiple lords, what can i do?
-if im against an opponent with FoW(control/merfolks), should i try to hold back my kotr/gsz?
-when are the times should i fetch batterskull/jitte?
-early game if i have a chance to play multiple exalted creatures should i play them and go aggro? or play kotr when i have the chance?
heres the current list im running:
(26 creatures)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Thrun, the last Troll
(2 enchantment)
2 Sylvan library
(4 sorcery)
4 Green Sun's zenith
(4 instant)
4 Swords to Plowshares
(3 artifact)
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawas Jitte
(21 lands)
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 verdant catacombs
2 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
1 maze of ith
1 Gaea's Cradle
most of the time I practice with my friend using his merfolk deck. I know merfolk is supposed to be good MU for mavericks but most of the time i play, he wins by 60/40 in his favor. im confused on what misplays im doing. I try to destroy his vials early whenever i can. I usually lose when he gets to bring down a lot of lords around 4th turn(via untapping lands using merrow rejeerey). I try to fetch sryb ranger whenever i need him. Most of the time he saves his FoW for gsz. I know batterskull is strong against merfolk but if he gets around 3-4 lords early game I cant do much, defensively. even if i land batterskull 3rd turn he can just simply use dismember.