Why not replace guide goblin with vexing devil?
4 Delver of secrets
4 Vexing devil
3 Snapcaster/Lavamancer
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Why not replace guide goblin with vexing devil?
4 Delver of secrets
4 Vexing devil
3 Snapcaster/Lavamancer
That's pretty much the only reasonable thing to do but even though I really like the Devil I think that this should be tested pretty well because not having haste in direct comparison might be a huge disadvantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by GranataGoblin
Generally I think the takes on this deck which are basically Burn splash Delver + Brainstorm are pretty bad. I can't see those 8 cards being a shitty manabase (compared to 1x Mountains) worth when 10+% of the field is Canadian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SupREME-10
Good news: no need to cut anything. As you and Kich only run 58 cards there are still two slots available ;-)
I wonder if it's still necessary to run Price of Progress. As the goal of this deck is to win by turn 3 or 4, how much damage will PoP do reliably in these turns?
With Vexing Devil and Thunderous Wrath the amount of damage this deck deals will increase significantly. Thus, I think the situational PoP as a finisher has become obsolete.
Well, this is the list I will most likely run after the release of Avacyn Restored:
//Creatures: 14
4x Goblin Guide
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Vexing Devil
2x Grim Lavamancer
//Instants: 17
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Thunderous Wrath
2x Fireblast
//Sorceries: 11
4x Rift Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
3x Ponder
//Lands: 18
As Vexing Devil might often resolve as a direct damage spell I decided to raise the creature count by two Grim Lavamancers. Still like these guys very much.
//SB: 15
4x Pyroblast
4x Smash to Smithereens
4x Echoing Truth
3x Tormod's Crypt
Comments appreciated.
Oh, wow I'm not sure why I counted 17 sorceries. I would just add 2 Lava Spike's then. Or one more fireblast / price. But I would rather up the lava spike count.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandoz
Pyroblast seems like a poor sideboard choice in decks like these. Truth makes sense for dredge, STS is amazing. Like, you have to ask yourself what Pyroblast actually does--it is probably going to let a burn resolve that will kill the opponent. But what are you dropping? Probably a burn spell, which makes it redundant. If you're dropping daze for it then you're leaving mana open that you could be using to hurt them, and dropping creatures for it seems bad.
Thanks for your reply, Kich.
The Pyroblasts are a relic of my Spiral Tide paranoia. :-)
As the count of blue cards has become too low, I replaced Force of Will with these.
I tried Pyrostatic Pillar and Flusterstorm in those slots as well. Not sure, what the right sideboard strategy in the current and upcoming meta is though.
Basically, my sideboard plan is as follows:
- 2 Grim Lavamancer, - 2 Thunderous Wrath/Fireblast:
+ 4 Echoing Truth (mainly against Enchantments. But as a universal hate card it works against many other things as well)
alternatively:
+ 4 Pyroblasts (if I have to deal with heavy blue permission)
The 4 Smash to Smithereens will always replace the 4 Rift Bolts when sided in.
That way I think the game plan of the deck will not be affected that much even after sideboarding.
I would run pillars all day. I've only had extremely positive results from utilizing them. Spiral Tide has to go pretty far out of their way to deal with it. It's also quite reasonable to race them as they often have to go off turn 4--any time they time spiral you just hope to hit a fireblast and blow them out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandoz
This is nearly identical to the list I've been testing as well. I run the third Lavamancer over the third Thunderous Wrath, but overall it's been treating me really well so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandoz
So i posted a list on the Burn thread that jares pointed to me would be better here, the thing is i had overlooked Delver and wasn't in my list. So after reading that and this thread i think this would be a great list atm and the one i'll be testing:
//Creatures [16]
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Vexing Devil
4 Grim Lavamancer
//Instants/Sorceries [26]
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Thunderous Wrath
2 Price of Progress
//Lands [18]
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
//Sideboard
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Mindbreak Trap
What do you guys think?
Snapcaster isn't very good in this deck and very slow, I would drop them for Goblin Guide's. Force of Will is also very bad in this deck, snapcaster's are often just "Random Blue Card in Hand to pitch for Force" since they're too slow to be relevant when you're casting FOW.Quote:
Originally Posted by kasparovski
Cut the snapcaster, drop FOW for more burn, and it should be solid.
The idea of playing a Burn + Control list doesn't work out--your creatures aren't strong enough to get there by themselves, you end up having to burn your opponent's threats to keep yourself in the game, in the end you end up just not doing much damage on them and rely on absurdly huge PoP's to win--which good players casually play around because it's not that great of a card anymore. People run basics, most people try to fetch them over duals if they can.
To the above poster (towards the top) that recommended dropping goblin guide from the list, goblin guide is practically the bread and butter of the deck, he does -way- too much work to drop him.
Glad you found the right thread for you. :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by kasparovski
I agree that Force of Will doesn't fit this deck too well for a variety of reasons, the most basic of which is that I think that there aren't enough blue cards to support it. Having said that, I feel that, while Daze seems like a better fit, it's still a bad top-deck, but I guess that it's something that we'll have to deal with for this deck until a better option comes around. Has anyone tried forgoing Daze altogether in favor of more Burn/Draw? Maybe a singleton Temporal Mastery just for kicks? :tongue: Running more Ponder and even Preordain will certainly help the frequency with which you'll be able to play Thunderous Wrath - in fact, maybe even Magma Jet could be considered as a one or two-of.
Snapcaster Mage doesn't look to good in a deck that wants to run just 18 lands, while also being alongside 5cc (Force of Will) and 6cc (Thunderous Wrath) cards. The best benefit that you could probably do with a Snapcaster Mage is to use and maximize cards with Phyrexian mana costs in the sideboard (e.g. Surgical Extraction).
Those are just my two-cents. I hope that helps.
Cheers,
jares
Great feedback guys, i guess i'll try this then:
//Creatures [16]
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Vexing Devil
4 Grim Lavamancer
//Instants/Sorceries [26]
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
3 Thunderous Wrath
2 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
//Lands [18]
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
//Sideboard
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Sulfuric Vortex
I knew Snapcaster Mage would be slower and thought that with control i could use it but having played Burn recently i understand the need of speed in this and what you guys said about Force of Will etc, just thought would be able to help the deck against combo etc, but i guess it decreases it's potency to much. Still, saw some of this decks making tops on tcdecks so can't be that bad no?
So i guess my doubts now are if it's better to use the 4th Grim Lavamancer or not, if Fireblast is the best option there and if Sulfuric Vortex would be better in main deck and probably on that slot. Sulfuric Vortex while not that great of a card per se it helps to anul a big weakness of this deck and Fireblast sounds weird when also playing with islands, not like we'll ever have to many mountains will we?
btw, how do you guys have the cards linked here?
edit: nice, thanks again kich867
Creatures [16]
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Vexing Devil
4 Grim Lavamancer
Instants/Sorceries [26]
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
3 Thunderous Wrath
2 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
Lands [18]
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Sulfuric Vortex
Quote this post! ^_^!!
Basically, you just have [cards] some cards [cards], except the second one is going to have a / in front of cards. Or maybe, replace ('s with ['s for the real deal:
(cards) some cards (/cards)
Force is occasionally in some side-boards for combo, and that I agree with. Sometimes it's main decked, but honestly I don't see how they can really push through with it. I often find myself with a lonely FOW in hand with no blue to pitch to it--I mean what do you pitch? Brainstorm, ponder, delver? Daze is the only real option because lategame dazes suck.
Alternatively, if you want to make it look a little more organized, putting //'s in front of a line "comments" it out (if you're familiar with programming).
Like this:
//Creatures [16]
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Vexing Devil
4 Grim Lavamancer
//Instants/Sorceries [26]
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
3 Thunderous Wrath
2 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
//Lands [18]
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
//Sideboard
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Sulfuric Vortex
I like this set up personally, others just make a section for all their cards, or you can have the whole thing in it, I think this just looks prettier haha.
Thanks man :smile: see post above yours.
Idk, don't think that's a very good reason not to board FoW, if everything we have to pitch is good then great, means we have a great deck! Once i was playing with a friend that was playing with a budget deck of humans and i used a FoW pitching another FoW and he was like fu. But yeah, cards are only good if useful and at that moment the second FoW was good for that. This is an example but yeah, i would pitch all of those you said if it make sense in a match and it would be the play with the biggest expected value.
Lava Spike is terrible when you're playing creatures. You need cards that have the ability to affect the board state. I've been liking Vapor Snag in this deck. The 1 life can make a difference, and it's a great tempo play, letting your Guides or Devils swing past Knights and Goyfs (if Devil resolves without dying for 4 damage, it's likely because your opponent has a blocker). I would recommend testing the card as a 3-of in the maindeck. I play 3 Submerges in the sideboard as well. With 6 bounce effects, Maverick has a hard time keeping their big bodies on the battlefield. It also gives you an out to things like Sphinx of the Steel Wind...
I also like the tempo-ish feel that Vapor Snag is able to provide, though it does make you a bit more dependent on your creatures on dealing damage, though that won't really be a major issue. Some have used Rift Bolts instead of Lava Spike, though that alternative also has its issues, but at least it can target creatures whenever necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
Cheers,
jares
I would much rather run lava spike over vapor snag. Goyfs and Knights should never get big enough to be a threat with this deck, if they have (at least knights), you're likely already in a losing position and a bounce won't bring you back. Vapor Snag's reliance on creatures is sketchy.Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
I don't want to rely on the creatures, they aren't strong enough to do that, I just want them to swing once or twice and get some damage in before I flip burn-mode on.
It's also worth noting that Vapor Snag isn't as good a top-deck as the other burn spells available.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
Regards,
jares
Some more tweaking:
//Creatures [14]
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Vexing Devil
3 Grim Lavamancer
//Instants/Sorceries [26]
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lava Spike
2 Rift Bolt
3 Thunderous Wrath
2 Price of Progress
1 Fireblast
//Enchantments
2 Sulfuric Vortex
//Lands [18]
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
3 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
//Sideboard
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
-1 Devil and -1 Grim for +2 Sulfuric. - i have a feeling Sulfuric will be helpful enough to be in main deck and that those other 2 creatures might be to much. Also by boarding Sulfuric in MD gained space in SB to have Pyrostatic Pillar that might come in handy.
4 Lava Spike might be to much and like i said i don't like Fireblast that much here so -1 of each and +2 Rift Bolts for variety and keep what i think are good burn stuff.
Also don't like the Vapor Snag idea in this deck after what kich867 said about having control in this list. I'm completely on board that this should look more like a slight built in terms of concept, some creatures dealing damage and then some burn. We just have better creatures and draw that now let us use Thunderous Wrath better then any deck. Vexing is also probably better here then anywhere and since we're using fetches and have tons of stuff going into the graveyard i still think it would be to much to cut on the grim entirely.
The deck is looking really strong now and would be really surprised if it doesn't make some very good results in the upcoming weeks.
btw Flame Rift is the only notable spell omission in this list comparing to the std burn list that has been having good results and might try to take the 2 Sulfuric Vortex and maybe 1 Ponder (or the lonely Fireblast) to include 3 and see how it goes. I just never really liked much of the card but i might be wrong and overlooking it.
Given the sligh-ish nature of the deck, would it be theoretically beneficial to run Pyrokinesis in the deck to ease the possible inconsistencies induced by running Thunderous Wrath (possibly a full set)?
Cheers,
jares
I'm not convinced by Wrath. Pyrokinesis is actually a very interesting idea in the sideboard. Unlike Force of Will, Pyrokinesis generally produces card advantage. Pyrokinesis is especially godly against decks like Maverick and Elves, preventing them from out-tempoing you and granting you CA.
I'll have to try it out. Thanks for the idea.
My initial worries:
- Not enough room in the sideboard.
- Not a high enough red count.
- Pyrokinesis is an awful topdeck, generally even more awful for a deck that doesn't have a way to fill its hand with cards (lacking Goblin Ringleader).
peace,
4eak