Grats dude!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
How do you usually board vs RUG and Stoneblade?
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Grats dude!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
How do you usually board vs RUG and Stoneblade?
Against RUG and (stock) StoneBlade I generally board identically:
-2 Breakthrough
-1 Ichorid
+1 Cabal Therapy
+2 Ancient Grudge
Now, I am not going to purport this is always correct, because it isn't sometimes. I usually leave just one Breakthrough in for game two. Remember, Dredge is very subjective, and what works for one player might not for another.
For a *potential* game three, the Breakthroughs generally come back in and I just go with the main deck. I sometimes don't even concern myself with boarding aggressively, as there are several factors involved in my decision making like:
How well does my opponent know this match-up? What hate do I care about when my deck is already explosive as is? Do I even care? Is my opponent competent enough to mulligan correctly? Are they running Leyline? Do I just feel like rolling them quick and not even care about their hand?
The list goes on and on. I just think it depends on so many variables. Sometimes I will just shuffle fifteen cards into my deck and take all fifteen of them out after the fact - in the very good match-ups. Most people don't know how to play against Dredge, and sometimes the best strategy is to board in as little as possible - if anything.
Therapy is key for information, too. When you rip their hand apart, it doesn't matter anyway.
I personally wouldn't cut Ichorids when my opponent could have Surgicals in his deck (which both Stoneblade and RUG often have), but as you said it's also matter of preference.
Congratz on the finish, though. And a very nice report!
Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
That's the reason I decided to cut an Ichorid in that scenario. Ichorid by itself as a two-of is more than sufficient when an opponent has shifted cards to their sideboard while watering themselves down looking for some form of hate. A Surgical hitting Ichorid is only going to max out at two, and sometimes an opponent will gun for it when they see it. This can mislead a prepared opponent into thinking you're purposefully altering your primary angle of attack with the deck by trying to grind out the win with Ichorids.
Hitting two Ichorids with Surgical Extraction isn't really optimal, but two Ichorids can fuel both Dread Return and tokens off Bridge. Either way, if an opponent Surgical Extraction's Bridge - which they should - you still have two Ichorids/Dread Return to fall back on. Three is probably fine, but in most instances people diversify their threats post-board when they care about Surgical Extraction. I really don't care about it and just run at the opponent head-on, which I why I beat it.
Another thing to note: RUG really doesn't run Surgical over Crypt right now, as S.E. is seeing primarily more play in StoneBlade, BUG and U/r Delver variants. Most people here run Crypts and Relic in their sideboard, sans Extraction, which is why I tend to prepare accordingly. But in the vast majority of games I've played against RUG, Extraction has been virtually non-existent or a non-factor. I suppose this is just a compressed impression on my take of the current meta, but in my particular meta such is not the case.
With regards to stoneblade the correct play is to DRAW, DREDGE and DISCARD Right? My problem is if they got surgical extraction in hand they just shoot your golgaris and you're basically dead. Especially if they turn 2 stoneforge into Batterskull then Jitte.
If you don't DDD, you run the risk of walking into counters and your dredgers will be stuck in hand. It's also very hard to mull because you can't DDD if you mull. I'm kinda having a hard time deciding on how to really play against stoneblade or esper.
What do you guys generally do against this deck? I've beaten some with DDD but if they get some of the nuts it's no longer a battle. What about boarding? Are ancient grudges the best thing we can bring?
Quad Ichorids or keep the combo against Stoneblade in Game 2? To the veteran dredgers I need your mighty wisdom!
Played at a major tournament last sunday. Went 4-2-1, 1 Win shy of the Top 8 and Round 1 being paired against a teammate who lucky top decked me with a Surgical on Game 3.
I think DDD is the right way most time, but often, you can keep hands which have enough stuff to get through counters (e.g.: 2 Lands, 1 Dredger, 1 Therapy, 2 Study Effects, 1 random), but most times even here I would DDD only for getting the first Dredger into the grave.Quote:
Originally Posted by blindspotxxx
Usually, I run a quodlazer or quodlazer -2+2 Citadel List, but sometimes I test the combo list with DR, and when I board g2, I feel like:
The greatest/only problem against UWx Blade is (Snapcaster+)extraction >>> Extraction only wents good, if your opponent was able to cast 2 of them, and then only if they hit Ichorid AND Narcomoeba. So the only thing we can do against this draw is, that we Cabal Therapy Extractions away, before relevant cards are in the Grave, or to hate it with 1 off Memory's Journey (what shouldn't be the plan).
This says, that we nearly can't do anything against nutsdraw or multiple extractions, so my plan is to NOT to board out the Dread Returns and the Targets, because it could win you the game, if Ichorid and Moeba are extracted. I had this scenario multiple times, and in many of these games I just had 1 or 2 zombie token(s), and was able to cast a thug, a pimp or a stinkweed from hand to DR into a big Troll (or another winmore fattie) protected by therapy.
In conclusion, I mean that the Plan for combolists should be to board all LED's out in the UWx-Blade + Extraction/Extirpate-Matchup, and some Breakthroughs if necessary. Then you board in all grudges and journeys/purges/puryfies you have + claims/firestorms if you have enough space and would not destroy the decks consistancy too much and obviously only if you run them.
(Maybe there is another Plan like don't board speed out at all and ignore hate. If you do that, you have to fight against counters and need good hands because you won't DDD more than one or 2 turns, if you use this strategy.)
If you know stoneblade is playing surgical extraction and not Leylines or artifact hate then this matchup is usually in our favor.
Esperblade is easier because they run less countermagic in exchange for more irreverent threats against us. It is easy to strip their hate with therapy. Or go all in with LED and two different dredgers. Esper version tends to use Leylines more often however which need to be dealt with differently.
U/W stoneblade is tougher though. They are more likely to use extraction making them more predictable. I wouldn't DDD unless you have two different dredgers because extraction will blow you out. Cabal Therapy is crucial in this matchup.
In either match up I would not board out LED. Breakthrough is most likely to go first especially against U\W versions.
Agree, but I would board out LED first, because it does not draw cards (i mean e.g.: After struggling with a leyline and some hate, you wan't more a breakthrough to kill your opponent fast, than a LED for discard your hand, because you always have enough outlets, even if you board all 4 LEDs out, you have at least 16-20 cards for discarding, so I see Breakthrough > LED).Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
DDDing against UWx-extraction-blade does obviously only make sense, if you don't have another choice (because you have only 1 outlet for example, caused from a mulligan), or if you have 2 Dredgers against extraction. But i think it isn't false if you have only 1 dredger or 2 trolls/thugs/imps and then go DDD because good opponents wouldn't be so stupid and extract a ddded Dredger blind. If they realize, that this isn't the safest way and the best target, then extraction is only relevant if you are already/constantly dredging.
I agree with not boarding out the LEDs. The card is great for forcing your opponent to make a play mistake or to pressure him into wasting countermagic. Remember that LED is also a massive enabler where Breakthrough requires you to already have a Dredger in the yard. I get that you can use Breakthrough as a weak enabler as well, but then you lose the overall potential for punching through a countermagic wall with Faithless Looting. Maybe it's preference, but I've been keeping the LEDs in for almost every matchup.
I agree that after fighting Leyline or whatever hate you want to try and make the board as much in your favor as possible. This is why I leave in LED and board out most or all my breakthroughs. Breakthrough is bad in multiples in long drawn out matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedris
Picture these two hand:
Hand One: LED,LED, careful study, and some number of dredgers.
Hand Two: Breakthrough, Breakthrough, careful study, and some number of dredgers.
For these two hands let's assume we have two or three lands in play. After battleling hate this seems like a fair number of lands right? You just finished dealing with your opponent's hate and want to go off.
Let's assume best case scenario for both hands. Hand one can potentially dredge 36 cards in one turn, assuming all grave trolls and faithless looting showing up when needed. Hand two can potentially dredge 24 cards, assuming you see all four trolls.
Now picture same hands but this time you have three lands in play with one being Cephalid Coliseum. Hand one can dredge up to 54 cards(assuming we are the topdeck king)! Hand two can still only dredge up to 24 cards in one turn.
Lion's Eye Diamond dredge build's strength over LEDless dredge is that it can win in one turn, not just turn one which happens on occasion.
Since the printing of Faithless Looting, I am more confidant in boarding out breakthrough. After boarding out all your breakthroughs you will still have 11 or 12 draw effects counting Cephalid Coliseum and you can still flashback Faithless Looting.
LEDs are also better at drawing out countermagic than breakthrough. First or second turn you can play out LED in hopes it will get countered to push a Pimp or careful study through. If LED doesn't get countered it still helps in the late game. If breakthrough doesn't get countered you might be setting yourself up to a blow out by a crypt next turn. I believe despite it's function LED as a card is actually better at playing cautiously than Breakthrough.
Sure, LED is a very good card and enables some tricks with it. Sure, You MAY Dredge more times with a single LED + Study + dredger than Breakthrough + Study + dredger, but you always have to hit a looting, and with 2 times dredging i don't see much consistancy in this move postboard. Study resp crack LED looks more like Loosing against topdeck crypt or massgy-removal than Study, Breakthrough, because hitting some dredgers (9-10 at this moment) in 2 dredges is a greater chance than hitting a Looting (4off) in 2 dredges.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
Note that LED AND Breakthrough lose against crypt, you just don't cast Breakthrough against Crypt/Trap/Relic and you don't crack LED against Crypt/Trap/Relic, the result is the same. The only contrast is, that Breakthrough can be played for x>0, so that you may use it as a drawspell without a totally all-in move.
Then, if we recapitulate your 2 scenarios, in the LED, LED, Study, some Dredgers and 2-3 Lands version, you might have a problem against a counter for study, so that you only can slowdredge, or topdeck lucky.
In the Breakthrough, Breakthrough, Study, some Dredgers and 2-3 Lands version, your Study might be countered, and then you may cast Breakthrough for x=1 (so that it costs 1U, not that Spell Snare is irrelevant in postboard games) this turn or the following, if you only have 2 lands and then, if it resolves, you can keep the other Breakthrough for "going off" again.
So Hand 1 loses against 1 counter, and Hand 2 only against 2. Maybe that is irrelevant, because of that Slowdredging started with LED might kill the control opponent too, but in conclusion LED needs a dredger (in hand or in grave) and another card to be good, where Breakthrough needs only a dredger in grave. If you would have only 1 Land in these scenarios, LED would be better for sure.
In the end:
LED and Breakthrough are both cards you might board out in the Blade matchup but i think it depends on the opponents SB and your personal preferences, which you are going to board out at first. I just like the usage of Breakthrough as a NOT-all-in card but yes, it's slower in being an outlet than LED.
This situation would never happen. The counterspell would be used to stop your chain/claim aimed at their hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedris
The point is: UW Stoneblade doesn't use Crypt/Relic/Trap. You'll face Surgical Extraction 95% of time, because of its beautiful synergy with Snapcaster Mage. Siding out LED is wrong in the majority of situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedris
Unless you're talking about Esper Blade, that can bring some random Leyline of the Void form times to times. But they don't usually bring artifact-formed hate.
The boarding for Ancient Grudge is to deal with fast Batterskull and Jitte. You won't really hit a Relic of Progenitus with it.
Alright short report from me.
Finished 15th in a 89 man-event on sunday [5-2] with the following list:
Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
Graveyard Goodies
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
other stuff
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
2 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
Sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Memory's Journey
1 Angel of Despair
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Round 1: Dredge
G1: We both know each other and we both know what we play. I won the dieroll and I started. I opened with Double LED, land -> CS -> sacced 1 LED in response for triple red and failed to find a Looting. He did an exorbitant start with LED, land, BT, Lootings ending his turn with 9 Zombies and a 18/18 Troll [3 Ichorids yarded]. 1 turn later I was dead, okay G2.
G2: We talked like 5 minutes how stupid the mirror and the boardings are, then we get started. I mulled to 5 due to bad opening hands, He also mulled to 5. My opening hand was Looting, Study, GGT, Land, Coliseum which should be good enough. He opened with Leyline. >.< I never found hate for the Leyline and died 2 turns after. He told me that his opening hand was: Leyline, Claim, Stinkweed, Lootings & Rainbow and he found a Coliseum in his Lootings. Massively exaggerated, what should I say? Well, the dredge-god wasn't on my side in that game.
Round 2: Pox
G1: I just wanted to check the pairings when a mate called me and said. Sit down here, and I thought "Oh no, another mate". I knew he was on Pox and I knew he played 3 Extirpates main, so I did not like that MU. He won the dieroll kept his 7 and started to laugh out loud. I started with a rainbowland and said "Bad pokerface" to him playing a Cabal Therapy naming Extirpate. I hit 2. 1 Turn later I flayerkilled him.
G2: He mulled to 5 and I knew he also has Leyline in the board. He had no Leyline, but extirpated my Moebas on turn 2. I created 2 Zombies the next turn with 1 Ichorid. 1 turn later 2 Zombies & 1 Ichorid sarificed themself to summon Iona. GG
Round 3: Sneak and Show
G1: I mulled to 5 due to superbad hands with lots of lands and no draw / dredgers. I still couldn't do anything and needed to hope to find a single discardspell. He kept his hand. Turn 4 Sneak Attack into Emrakul & Progenitus -> GG
G2: Just a turn 2 Progenitus which I couldn't race.
Round 4: Hivemind
G1: I Flayerkilled him on turn 2 and know what he was playing due to seeing his hand thanks to Cabal Therapy.
G2: He did a 2nd turn Show and Tell into Emrakul. I had my Angel of Despair in hand. Awesome! Finished the game 2 turns later with Angel & Ichorids.
Round 5: Hivemind
Basically the same as Round 4. The only exceptions were that G1 lasts a bit longer and Show and Tell was cast in turn 3 at game 2.
Round 6: Pox
G1: He started with Swamp -> Go. I opened with Rainbowland, LED, Looting, response LEDcrack, Looting again and a full graveyard. He did EoT -> Entomb. I thought: "Fuck, reanimator, Elesh -> GG". Luckily he yarded a Nether Spirit and I was sure he is on Pox. I flayerkilled him turn 2.
G2: I kept a strange opening hand with 2 Rainbowlands, 3 Coliseums a Thug and a Study. He opened with Swamp -> Pithing Needle. I thought: "Oh man... don't call Coliseum". He was thinking a few seconds and named Dread Return. I played Gemstone Mine -> Study, yarding a Flayer and a Thug because I didn't find any other Dredgers. He drew for his turn and played Extirpate, targeting my Flayer [SCG-Niveau anyone?]. 2 turns later I showed him that Dread Return isn't an activated abillity and brought a Iona into play. :tongue:
Round 7: Hivemind [seriously wtf]
G1: I therapied him turn 2 and knew he was on Hivemind, 1 turn later I killed him with Ichorids and Flayer.
G2: He mulliganed to 6 and opened with Leyline, Land, Top. I played a Study which found me 2 other Studies/Lootings. He played another land doing nothing. I played my 2 Studies, still finding no out to that stupid Leyline. EoT he Lim-Dûl's Vaulted. In his turn he did Ancient Tomb -> Show and Tell into Emrakul. Guess what? I had the Angel again. 2 turns later he was dead.
Nothing to add here from the tourney. My thougts are the same like before. Grudge does nothing these days. So does Putrid Imp which always gets boarded out. [except for the mirror] My next list will probably cut some Imps for Rainbowlands and more Breakthrough again.
Also, here is a picture of my MVP this weekend: Angel of Eldrazi-slaying.
http://img7.imagebanana.com/img/vita...lofDespair.JPG
See you guys, and keep on dredging.
Thank You gentlemen for your replies. Really depends on the draw huh? Would you guys keep a 7 card hand for DDD with no Draw Effects? Assuming against stoneblade. I guess it's safe to conclude that as long as they play Snapcaster Surgical is the form of hate and DDD route ain't good for it. Maybe just Mull normally and don't fear counters is the best move? Ok now i know what the ancient grudges are for, their not really there for the hate but rather for the Equipment.
Nice report :) A very odd set of matchups though haha. No wonder Angel of Despair was your MVP this whole weekend. :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
Good job NecroYawgmoth. Really three Hive Minds!
In regards to your first game, I have been blind naming LED with any Cabal Therapies on the play for my first turn. My thought process is that only dredge, belcher , TES, or Reanimator can blow me out after ten or fifteen cards have entered my graveyard. Don't know if the opportunity was there for you or not, but it is a good strategy to adopt. Especially in the current meta.
This list looks absolutely savage.Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
4 Claim out of the board is about the best thing I've seen. I might change:
-1 Flayer
-1 Dread Return
+1 Flame Kin Zealot
+1 Breakthrough
I've played just about every combo deck except for dredge. I'll put this beast together and start testing. Congrats on your finish.
I know about this strategy and I follow the same logic. Unfortunately there was no Moeba for me to flashback a Therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
I just dislike FKZ. It doesn't do anything except winning now. In ~90% of the time tha 1 turn doesn't even matter because you Therapied their hand away and created a shitload of Zombies anyway. I think Flayer is better because it also helps against akward cards instead of just winning now. [He is like a combination of Angel & FKZ]. If I'd play only 2 DRs main, my target of choice would be Angel of Despair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clown of Tresserhorn
That's essentially what most of the available Dread Return targets are meant for - combo finishes. Whether it's Flayer or FKZ, it really doesn't matter as long as they ultimately win you the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
I agree on the principle that Cabal Therapies can be enough when creating tokens and stripping an opponent's hand apart, which is why I opt to run Sun Titan. It doesn't necessarily create a "win more" scenario for the deck, but either ensures you will win the game the following turn by blasting through your deck, or it will throw you back into a winning position when the game is effectively out of reach. FKZ and Flayer really don't do this optimally, but Titan can.
Also, congrats on the finish. I am, however, not a fan of running only twelve lands - four of which that do not produce Red mana for Looting or Black mana for Putrid Imp. That can create some incredibly awkward scenarios with off-colored land-spell hands to start the game.
Additionally, two Breakthrough main seems a bit light. Game one you're going straight combo and you ideally want to be able to blow the game wide open as soon as possible. By trimming back on the number of Breakthroughs, you're essentially putting more weight on your basic filter spells to do most of the work for you, thus making you mulligan even more aggressively to find a land to fit the color cost of the spell intended to be cast (because you're only running twelve lands, this makes it even harder).