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Nice one, looks solid! I dont have bridges/explosives unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Im playing almost the same list, except 2 rotting rats, 1 scourge, 1 angler, 2 lingering souls and the 4th feeder, replacing the abrades, entombs and and bridge from your list!
SB is a couple innocent bloods and surgicals, silent gravestone, some bridges, lilianas, abrades and wear/tear!
So I started experimenting with the Entomb package yesterday. I was shocked at how many lines of play there by simply adding that card. I definitely had multiple points where I didn't know what the correct entomb target was.
-Dakmor Salvage is pretty intuitive, if you are short a land drop or if you need to trigger bloodghasts.
-Bridge from Below for the go-wide aspect
-Gravecrawler to cast it from the graveyard
-Bloodghast with a land drop to return it to play
-Faithless looting for card filtering.
-Scourge of Nel Toth to go big and evasive.
-Lingering souls for blockers
So which is the best line and worst lines from peoples experience?
Also, has anyone toyed with Judgment Incarnation cycle (Anger, Filth) to give evasion or haste? It might be win-more, but swampwalking past a TNN or a DeathShadow doesn't sound that crazy.
Speaking of which, how is the death shadow matchup? How do you board?
So I took my latest list for a spin to a weekly 4 round tournament of 30 players. I couldn't get my hands on a Bridge from Below so I played a 3rd Lingering Souls instead. I ended up taking 1st place. Here's the list and a brief report:
3 Carrion Feeder
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
1 Scourge of Nel Toth
2 Abrade
4 Entomb
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
3 Lingering Souls
3 Goblin Bombardment
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
4 Badlands
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
//SB
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Fatal Push
3 Wear // Tear
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Liliana of the Veil
R1 2-0 vs. Mardu Midrange
G1 There isn't much Mardu can do against us as we both try to abuse our GY for value except that we do it better...
Out: 4 TS, 4 Therapy
In: 3 Push, 3 Wear, 2 EE
G2 He was banking on 3 Leyline of the Void postboard and didn't hit them.
R2 2-1 vs. Steel Stompy
Out: 4 TS, 4 Therapy, 4 Entomb
In: 3 Push, 3 Wear, 2 EE, 2 Bridge, 2 Liliana
G1 he opens up with T1 Chalice backed up by Welding Jar. I scoop.
G2 I open with a zombie while he lands a Chalice followed by Opal, Overseer and Ballista. I figured my only out at this point was to point my Abrade at the Overseer EOT and pray I draw an Explosives for the blowout. Topdeck EE like a thief and steal the game.
G3 I mull to 5 to find a 2 lander with Abrade and 2 Push. He has a T0 Leyline and opens with a Thorn followed by 3 Ballistas that each get removed. I draw a Wear for Leyline and he Wastes me while beating me down with a 4/4 Ravager. I stabilize with Bombardment, 2 Crawlers and a Bloodghast against his empty board.
R3 2-1 vs. Burn
G1 I get a tripple hit on Flame rift with Therapy and barely clock him out because he thought Ghasts could block...
Out: 4 TS, 1 Souls
In: 3 Push, 2 Liliana
G2 I get an aggreasive Feeder opener and take him out with Bombardment and 3 Ghasts while he's holding a Bolt and I am at 4 life. A terrible matchup overall. A lot of luck G1 and some good Pushes go a long way.
R4 2-0 vs. UWr Stoneblade
G1 I shred his hand on T3, Abrade his Jitte and ride Bombardment.
Out: 4 TS, 3 Therapy, 1 Scourge, 1 Badlands
In: 3 Wear, 2 EE, 2 Bridge, 2 Liliana
G2 I grind him out with Ghast, Souls and Bombardment. He has no RiP in his board so the matchup is much easier against 3 Surgical + Snaps. TNN never gets to attack...
I also played some friendlies inbetween rounds and went 1-1 pre-board against Burn and 2-0 postboard against UW RiP-Helm.
In summation:
-EE was MVP against all of the cards/decks that I usually struggle with (RiP, Cage, Chalice, CB, Empty the Warrens, Jitte, and so much more!)
-Bridge from Below was not necessary at any point but I am certain could help tremendously against Burn and against Steel Stompy pre-board.
-Ensnaring Bridges were not needed all night but I am sure the day will come where I will be really happy to have them against the common Eldrazi, Sneak n Show, Turbo Depths/Lands, and even Reanimator. Today, however, I would have preferred a 3rd Liliana and even a 3rd EE instead.
-I came close to being cut off white against Steel Stompy. I didn't care because I don't need much white at all but perhaps a 3rd Scrubland is in order? Most likely not...
Thanks for the Feedback. I appreciate that. I think that Zombardment benefits from it's rogue-factor. Some players might not know deck or archetype at all. But you are right, I was lucky to win those close games. Nevertheless every player needs some kind of luck to win games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Maybe LtLH is win-more. The DnT-matchup seems pretty bad even though I still like LtLH in there. Do we need Dread of Night to win this?! My idea as a basic principal about Liliana, the Last Hope, Dark Confidant, Gurmag Angler and Bitterblossom is to add cards that are incredible powerful on it's own. This should increase our topdecks at the expense of synergy and explosiveness.
Congratulations on your victory! Also thanks for the effort you put in here. To begin with: I really like 90% of your decklist!Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
- Maybe the forth Badlands is of value.
- Engineered Explosives was my 16. sideboard-card in mind, I'm happy it performed well for you!
- Three Fatal Push might improve half of our matchups.
Thinks I'd like to question:
- Starting with the most important topic: I really like our discard spells especially in game two and three. I don't board (all of them) out in order to pick up hatecards like Rest in Peace or Equipment.
- I don't think Abrade is good enough for a maindeck card but that might be a meta call (Chalice of the Void)
- For me Lingering Souls is too good to not use the playset.
- With Wasteland in the format and Stitcher's Supplier in our own deck a third Scrubland feels saver for me.
- In a meta full of Brainstorm what do you think about Kambal, Consul of Allocation in the board?
- What is your opinion on Dark Confidant, Gurmag Angler and Bitterblossom?
Again thanks for sharing that tournament report! :-)
I'm including one Haunted Dead to let me start gravecrawler from zero more easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by maCHOOga
Anger could be cute with Scourge. Bloodghasts turn on haste eventually though and i don't know if g-wide decks really need haste that badly in general. Filth in SB could be cute.
I haven't played against DS yet but it sounds really winnable. Block with souls and throw them at face. Important to not do the shadow player's job too early. Make them ding themselves down to 5 and then go ham with hasty ghasts and bombardments.
@maCHOOga,
1st: Entomb's best use is as the best form of Bloodghast. Ghast as a card is better in your GY than your hand because it only costs a land drop to cast from there. Entomb costs half of Ghast. This play allows more Bombardment abuse, Feeder abuse, and most importantly enables Therapy flashback very early.
2nd: Entomb as additional discard is crucial when maximizing interaction G1 against various decks that may have hard to interact plans or key disruption pieces.
3rd: Entomb to go over the top. Usually this takes the form of a T3+ Entomb for Bridge or Scourge. One of the best ways to go over the top is also to Entomb for more Ghasts.
4th: Entomb for Souls is usually a desperation move. You either can't find a way to build a board or you are under pressure and need blockers.
The other uses for Entomb are mostly fringe like grabing a Faithless in a stall game when you need to dig in order to get rid of lock pieces for example. Gravecrawler is rarely a target because Ghast is usually the cheaper and faster recursion dork for most intents and purposes. This doesn't mean Entombing for Crawler and Looting isn't good or optimal, they are just not the main reasons to play Entomb.
The incarnations are extreme corner cases and just plain suck in general... Even Glory has no place. I've pretty much tried all the possible Entomb targets (Volcanic Spray, Coffin Purge, Grudge and Ray of Revelation, Darkblast and Loam, even weird flashback gain life cards...) and they are, for the most part, too narrow and/or underwhelming even for the SB. Purpose #1-3 are enough to justify a full set IMO. Don't get me wrong, Grudge and Darkblast are good cards and an Entomb package makes them more availlable. However, when compared to EE, Wear, Push and Liliana, they are not comparable in terms of matchup applicability and impact.
I haven't had a chance to test against Death's Shadow (even though I've been meaning to) but I honestly believe it is a very favorable Delver matchup if we don't get Wasted out of the game. I know I have Push, EE, and Liliana postboard and it should be a walk in the park.
@EtwasSteIn,
I think DnT is one of our best matchups! There is no way they can fight an active Bombardment and their GY hate is quite limited. I am happy to play the fair game against them too because our deck is so much more tempo efficient and we have strong answers to all of their major plays (Jitte, BSK, RiP, Crusader). My DnT opponents usually squirm in their seat with discomfort. My SB plan is something like this:
-4 TS -3 Therapy -1 Scourge
+3 Push +3 Wear +2 EE (used to be Zealous Persecution/Sudden Death)
Between 2 Abrade, 3 Push, 3 Wear and 2 EE there aren't many haymakers that stick on their side. No need for Dread. I'd even shove a 3rd EE in there if I could and they wouldn't have an ounce of a chance.
Badlands is the best land to produce red with and red is essential to the deck. If I could justify a single Mountain I would drop the 4th Badlands but as it is, Mountain isn't worth a damn. With Supplier and Looting you will often have to bin a Badlands (or more!) and it could prove fatal against a 4x Wasteland deck. A smart opponent will aim their Wastelands at Badlands always because losing white is not a problem. With only 3 Badlands, if you bin one and eat 2 Wastelands, you are now cut off red.
Concerning discard, I believe discard is amazing as a G1 plan and terrible against decks that generate a board position G2-3. G1 discard is like FoW, it is fast, it interacts with nearly anything and everything, and it gives us a fighting chance against Combo decks. The main downside to discard is also it's biggest flaw: you pay mana and lose cards to remove cards that haven't been paid for, and once those cards have been paid for you can't interact with them anymore. Discard spells are all tempo-negative and do not offer any comeback potential. Discarding a card appears to be the best way to deal with it but in reality it is not. If your goal is to deal with a card, removing it is by far superior to discarding it in most cases because it is a relevant play at any stage. I preffer being prepared for likely scenarios than to hope for unlikely ones. This is why my SB plans for almost every non-combo decks involve replacing 7-8 discard spells. I only keep a single Therapy as an Entomb target when I know I will be up against something like Stoneforge Mystic.
Perhaps you are correct about Abrade as a meta call. Then again, everything is a meta call when you think about it. :P Abrade is a strange card but it plays a key role in the deck. Mainly, Abrade gives you outs G1 to cards/decks that don't expect to be answered G1 like Chalice, Jitte and BSK. The other big reason to play Abrade that isn't obvious is that it enables a critical mass of removal for creatures and artifacts G2-3 when combined with the SB. Having redundant and various answers to various problematic permanents is key when dealing with efficient cards and specific hate cards. If we can efficiently take control of the pace of a game, our synergy will do the rest.
Lingering Souls is an amazing card and the more you have, the more you can comfortably Loot. The reality about Souls is that they are clunky. Multiple copies can get in the way and many Souls don't necessarily translate to a winning position. Many decks just don't care about them... I played 4 copies for a long time because I wanted to maximize my Loots and Suppliers but I realized that:
1st: Souls is not always a good play, therefore my deck doesn't get better by having Souls all the time, and
2nd: you don't need the full set against the decks where Souls shine, so 2-3 copies is often all you truly need.
I would play a 3rd Scrubland as my 21st land. The reason why I opted for 2 is because I honestly don't care if I get cut off. As I mentionned earlier, I am happier that my opponent fires their Waste at my Scrubs than my Baddies anyway. The only white cards I have are a few Souls mainboard that I can easily dump and cast with black mana, and the Enchantment half of Wear. The decks that pack Wasteland don't generally have key enchantments to remove later in the game and going up to 3 on EE is uncommon. There is always Paradise as a potential 3rd white source in a long game too!
Kambal is slow, vulerable and doesn't stop Brainstorm from being good. I would only consider him in a meta filled with Burn players.
Dark Confidant is simply great in any deck that can play him. He does it all: beat and grind! His drawback is easily mitigated by a sac outlet. I played 4 Bobs when I played zombie-less bombardment (4 DRS, 4 Pyro, 4 Entomb, 4 Bolts, 3 Decay list) and he was crucial in every game I played. With all the zombie synergy and the flashback Lootings, grinding is our strength. I simply don't have space to dedicate to non-synergy grind in the deck. I'd rather focus on better early plays, bigger synergy, and efficient answers with whatever flex slots I can muster by shaving to the bare minimum. I would play Bob in a different shell like something with more generic "good cards" like Decay, Blossoms, Young Pyro, and Liliana.
Gurmag Angler is very good in any Supplier/Looting deck. My original Supplier list played 3. The only reason I don't play him is that the cards in my deck are currently better than Gurmag. It may sound crazy but in a zombardment shell, Feeder is better at generating a clock and offers better support. Gurmag as a grindy resilient threat is not needed when you have a million recurring threats. Finally, Scourge is bigger, flies, and is way more accessible as an over-the-top finisher or board-staller. I don't need Gurmags for the same reasons I don't need additional Scourges.
Bitterblossom is narrow, slow, and a liability in certain matchups. Blossom makes us better at what we do best already: have recurring insignificant creatures constantly hit the battlefield. The main appeal to Blossom is that it doesn't care about GY hate and it is difficult to remove. I can see Blossoms shine against Miracles and all flavors of Grixis Control decks. Given that Grixis is a legit 80-20 matchup in our favor and that Miracles isn't a bad matchup by any stretch (possibly around 65-35), I don't see the use for Blossoms right now.
@Queerios, Thanks for the feedback. I agree with shaving all/most of the discard in fair matchups. I also shave a lingering souls against heavy counterspell decks.
@ All
I played a slightly modified version of Queerios deck to a 5-0 finish in the weekly community league. I think I've found the point where I'm happy enough with the deck to start playing mtgo leagues. This has felt like the most streamlined version I've played to date. I completely underestimated the power of Scourge of Nel Toth. That card is stupid good in this deck with entombs.
3 Carrion Feeder
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
1 Scourge of Nel Toth
2 Dismember*
4 Entomb
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
3 Lingering Souls
3 Goblin Bombardment
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Dakmor Salvage**
9 Black Fetchlands
3 Badlands
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
//SB
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Collective Brutality ***
2 Cryptbreaker ****
3 Wear // Tear
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Liliana of the Veil
Here is my reasoning:
* The "two" removal spots is a metagame call. I prefer dismember, but I definitely could see the argument for abrade.
** This turns entomb into a bad ramp spell if you need to hit a land drop. Also, it allows entomb to trigger bloodghasts. I just wish it was more than dredge 2.
*** The community league is a burn heavy metagame and this card is their worst nightmare. To add to it, discarding cards for more modes isn't really a disadvantage in this deck.
**** I borrowed this tech from the RB Reanimator PT deck. It avoids the graveyard and is great with E-bridge to control hand size. It's also a kill on sight card or it will spiral out of control. I was going to try Magus of the Moon in this spot but without mana accelerators, it seems very slow.
Matchups were:
1.) Monoblack Reanimator.
Cryptbreaker + Ensnaring Bridge enabled a 20 to 0 turn staring down a terastadon. It drew me +4 cards as they flounder to assemble a new reanimation target.
2.) UR WizardDelver (Swiss + Finals)
UR Delver with Wizards lightning. Nothing exciting except for cabal therapy being OP at buffering lifetotals. I did die to a sulfuric vortex because I missed 2 points of damage in a turn. Doh!
3.) Burn (Swiss + Semis)
Each time, I tore apart their hand and managed to close out the game quickly. I always blind therapy the highest damage spell being PoP or Fireblast.
@maCHOOga,
Good job on yet another good finish! It's good to see Zombardment players crush.
I really like Brutality against Burn. I think brutality is more of a mainboard card than a SB card as it doesn't do anything particularly well (other than wreck burn). I like my SB cards to give me an edge. Swapping Brutality with Dismember (or even Push) from the main/side would have been arguably a better meta call if you anticipate combo and burn. I would definitely play Brutality > Abrade if my meta had less SFM and Chalice decks and more Combo and Burn/UR Delver decks.
I don't think Dakmor is any good even with Entomb. In fact, I think it is absolutely horrible. The opportunity cost is very real (-1 fetch) and leads to bad openers and bad draws. I'd rather Entomb for Souls and flash it back rather than use an Entomb and lose a draw step fot a tapped nonbasic Swamp that triggers a few Ghasts.
Looking at the reasons why you play Cryptbreaker it seems like they also apply to Liliana. However, Liliana has many additional reasons to be chosen over Breaker. I suggest you check out all of the matchups where you want Breaker and see if Liliana is good instead. Then, check out all the other matchups that get improved by more Liliana. I love Breaker and I'm all for cheaper solutions. Sadly, I don't believe he is up there with Lily.
Do you mind expanding on Swamp#3? When I look at our deck, I want as many fetches as possible and as little non-fetches possible mainly for color availability and Bloodghast shenanigans. When it comes to non-fetches, we have: Utility lands, duals, and basics. If we are to operate on an optimal amount of lands (20-21) for a given curve (2 opener, 3 by T3), utility lands that don't produce colored mana (aka: can't cast spells) don't get to participate in our manabase calculations (they compete with spells instead). With that in mind, utility lands other than Paradise generally don't make the cut (Dakmore for instance). Duals cast the most spells and are vulnerable to certain land hate. Given that casting spells > being resistant to land hate that aims at preventing you from casting spells, it is more important to have an adequate dual base than basic base. Basics therefore occupy the slot of our residual fetchable lands that give us an edge against non-basic hate. All that basically boils down to:
Fetches > Duals > Basics > Colorless Utility Lands
First you start with an Undiscovered Paradise because it is a 5 color utility land with diminishing returns (can't play 2). I wouldn't play less than 10 fetches here as that translates to 1/6th of our deck therefore optimizing our chances of having exactly 1 fetch in a mulligan to 6. However, more fetches are better than more duals and basics. Then you need a healthy amount of red sources (3-4) and white sources (2-3) for a total of 6-7 duals. Finally it's up to how many basics you need to operate smoothly against non-basic hate. 1 Swamp casts everything non-red/white except Scourge, Ghast and Liliana. 2 Swamp casts everything non-red/white. Let's look at the most common reasons to play basics:
Wasteland: the most common nonbasic offender. Can be debilitating in multiples or combined with Loam. The more basics the better here as long as you have access to all the colors necessary to cast your spells. This usually means that the best way to play against non-Loam Wastelands with an optimal list is to power through by playing more duals than they play Wastes. By fetching basics you essentially allow Wasteland to cut you off your secondary colors while they reduce your land amount. By fetching multiple duals you protect certain colors and only end up being restricted on the land count. More than 2 basics are good against Loam. A basic Mountain makes more sense here.
Blood Moon/B2B: Blood Moon will give you red mana so the more swamps, the better against either of those cards. B2B can be dealt with and usually doesn't prevent you from casting spells. 2 Swamps is enough to operate under B2B and Moon. Additional basics makes them more availlable under Moon and overall decreases the value of an opposing Moon or B2B.
Price of Progress: I will always grab a Badlands against Burn as my first land and follow it up with 2 Swamps. By that point I don't need to make more land drops and the game has already taken a decisive form where I am either winning or losing. If I am winning, great, if I am losing, another Swamp over a dual usually won't dig me out. A basic Mountain makes more sense here.
For an open meta, most decks don't rely on non-basic hate so more fetches = more consistency and synergy. That alone is reason enough ro maximize fetches and minimize duals and basics. Against nonbasic hate, Wasteland is the most common and more duals and fetches are prefferable to more than 2 Swamp. As for Moon and B2B, you would indeed benefit slightly from more basics. Against PoP I just don't see the point... In the end you gain a marginal edge at the expense of a global edge.
Played paper to a 2-0-1 finish last night as well with my weekly legacy event.
Two wins against death and taxes, they both fell into the "how do I ever beat this" camp. Board out discard for games 2 and 3 and seemed very easy matchup.
Draw with Sneak and Show. We played for glory and I lost the match in three games. I searched the conversations and didn't see much about sneak and show. I still feel like I overboarded, but not sure.
In: +2 Liliana, +2 Ensnaring Bridge, +3 Surgical, +2 Cryptbreaker
Out: -2 Dismember, -3 Lingering Souls, -3 Goblin Bombardment, -1 Scourge of Nel Toth
Basically all games played out the same... I tore apart their hand, if they drew brainstorm runner-runner, I died, if not I won. I also took a line where I entombed cabal therapy over a gravecrawler/bloodghast to take away an omniscience leaving them with nothing. The end result was I really couldn't establish a board presence fast enough to close out the game. I think I need to leave scourge in because it speeds the clock by a lot over the army of 2/1s. It's also why I brought in cryptbreaker, as it can snowball quickly and they are likely to bring in graphdiggers cage.
@Qweerios
After reading your reply, thinking about it and playing. I'm 100% on board with playing a fetch over the dakmoor salvage. Dredge 2 isn't enough to warrant it and the coming into play tapped is a cost.
As for the 2 v 3 swamps it all comes down to probability. We are playing the random variable of Stitcher's supplier of around 11% of our deck. I definitely had a scenario in the beginning where I milled over a scrubland, drew the 2nd and had it wastelanded; effectively cutting off white. At that point, I moved to the 3rd scrubland. The same argument can be applied to the 3rd basic swamp. But I can see the other case of play the 11th fetchland.
I still like cryptbreaker and will continue testing it, although its entirely possible that it moves out to make more sideboard slots available.
Against Sneak n Show I think Souls are better than Breaker. I sometimes keep 1 copy to Entomb for because Souls combined with a Feeder can blank Griselbrand long enough. I also bring in all my Wear postboard because their SB plan involves either 4x Leyline of Sanctity or 4x Grafdigger's Cage (standard). Wear also removes Sneak Attack when Liliana puts them in topdeck mode after a discard onslaught. Scourge and Breaker require too much setup for a clock. You can always try Bridge from Below as it is the fastest way to put up huge board presence. Personally I believe Crawler, Feeder and Ghast put up a great clock by themselves so I just care about disruption. Liliana is the nail in the coffin for me because SnT decks cannot go off in topdeck mode without Sneak Attack.
My SnT SB:
Out: 2 Abrade 2 Souls 3 Bombardment 1 Bridge 1 Scourge 1 Mountain
In: 1 Duress 3 Surgical 3 Wear 3 Liliana
Abrade goes back in G3 if I scout a full set of Cages or the new Artisan.
Now that I only play 2-3 Souls mainboard and EE > ZP, I really don't mind being cut off white. Just flashback a Looting or a late Therapy on yourself and you can cast Souls without white. Again, with Wear as the only white SB card, 2 Scrubs is enough.
After writing all this stuff about the manabase I realized that a basic Mountain over the 4 Badlands wasn't a bad idea. I goldfished some openers and really appreciated how I could easily operate entirely on basics. This line is great against Wasteland decks (mostly Delver) and Burn. Being able to completely blank Wasteland and PoP for your first 3 land drops can really make a difference. It also strengthens our game plan against Loam decks. All it took was to replace a Badlands with a Mountain (20 to 19 black sources) and a black fetch with an Arid Mesa (11 to 10 fetches for Swamp). Here's what I tested:
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa
3 Badlands
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
I've also cut all Ensnaring Bridges from my SB because I find the card too narrow and passive. I added back the 3rd Liliana and threw in a Duress that fills some gaps I had against combo and Burn.
Did quite well in casual legacy jamming tonight. Sloppy report incoming
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Bloodghast
2 Gravecrawler
2 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Haunted Dead
1 Scourge of Nel Toth
4 Lingering Souls
1 Bridge from Below
3 Goblin Bombardment
1 Darkblast
2 Abrade
4 Faithless Looting
3 Entomb
2 Diabolic Intent
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Swamp
4 Badlands
2 Scrubland
11 black fetch
SB:
3 Wear and Tear
1 Umezawa's jitte
2 Urborg Justice
1 Backlash
1 Bitterblossom
1 Coffin Purge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Dread of Night
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Zealous Persecution
Match 1: Rug Delver
Discard takes threats and I get there with time to spare, 2-0
Match 2: Sneak & Show
Discard takes the first match, Tear on Sneak Attack takes the second
Match 3: Goblins
G1 was a rout. Creature kill in the main is good. G2 had my zealous persecution cast too early and I let him lackey in a seige gang commander accidentally. G3 he RiPed too early, and I played above ground until I could tear it, and valuetown got there
Match 4: Dragon Stompy
g1 TS 3-ball, he rips chalice and I see only one land in 14 cards.
g2 was a good fight, and the incredible valuetown took it over
g3 he was land screwed so I took it.
g4 (i said it was casual!) his double chalice into rabblemaster closed it off
g5 early sin prodder into hazoret into chandra into rabblemaster. :(
One game vs miracles in which I mis-sequenced and let too much die to terminuses when I had bombardment in hand
one game vs bug rector fit where he drew no gas.
Abrade was good.
Sculler was quite good but could still be borderline. I included it as a way to start gravecrawler chains from nowhere but that didn't seem necessary
darkblast was instrumental in fighting early threats (delver, warren instigator)
3 bombardments felt weird. I never had it when I really wanted it (or i milled it), and I had 2 when I didn't want any.
Haunted dead was great as a jump-start for gravecrawler and a discard outlet/stall
Diabolic intent was very good at getting bullets that weren't graveyard-castable. 2 times I got lands with it vs wasteland decks.
Stitcher often milled stuff that was completely useless. Thinking an angler to diabolic intent for could be strong. I almost want it to be tombstalker since I only have 3 crawlers and have a few ways to jumpstart them.
Greetings Zombie Throwers,
congrats on your results! Today was my second tournament with Zombardment in Hamburg, Germany. After the discussion here I played the following 75:
3 Carrion Feeder
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
2 Dark Confidant
2 Abrade
3 Entomb
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
3 Lingering Souls
3 Goblin Bombardment
1 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
2 Badlands
1 Dragonskull Summit
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
//SB
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Wear // Tear
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Fatal Push
1 Sudden Demise
Match 1: Big Eldrazi
Game 1: This is the first and last game I started on the play. Early discard and a decent clock did the job.
Game 2: Early ramp Grim Monolith into Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger killed me without any chance.
Game 3: An average hand was enough for the win, because my opponent missed a few landdrops. Pretty happy to win this match against a very skilled player who played Zombardment a few years ago.
Match 2: W Gideon Control
Game 1: My second opponent played a unique mono white Gideon control deck with cards like Chalice of the Void, Wrath of God and Humility maindeck. I was able to discard some hate and win with a swarm of Zombies through a Humility. Carrion Feeder keep their +1/+1 counters and Goblin Bombardment does not care if the victim was 10/10 or 1/1!
Game 2: I answered two Rest in Peace but a growing Gideon was one more turn short to kill me. I topdecked a land in the last possible turn and was able to win with a hasty Bloodghast.
Match 3: UWB Stoneblade
Game 1: Three Zombies got plowshares until two True-name Nemesis slayed me. I was one turn short.
Game 2: I took a mulligan to six with one land and Faithless Looting, but in my top four cards there was no land. Nevertheless I was still in the game but lost a grindy game versus two Zealous Persecution and a Snapcaster Mage.
Match 4: Turbodepths
Game 1: My discard didn't stop a turn three Marit Lage. I was able to chumpblock her with Spirit token two times but my clock was too slow.
Game 2: I wrecked my opponents hand but from this desperate position he drew the perfect card three times in a row. Nothing to complain, no chance to win versus combo with those draws.
Match 5: Grixis Death Shadow
Game 1: I remember that this was a long and close game where Lingering Souls was key to win.
Game 2: The Grixis player started with a Leyline of the Void and played very aggressive with his own life. I had my Goblin Bombardment but could not find a creature from the top when he was at one life.
Game 3: Again I faced a turn zero Leyline of the Void but this time I was prepared: I smashed his Leyline with Wear // Tear and killed two Death Shadow's with an Engineered Explosive. My Liliana of the Veil took care of another Shadow and his Liliana, the Last Hope fall apart to my creatures.
Overall: 3-2 (8. place, 24 players)
Abstract
- 20 lands felt fragile even though I did not face Death and Taxes. Next time I will play 21 again.
- Two Swamps are good enough and without Zealous Persecution two Scrubland are fine. Dragonskull Summit will be a Badlands or at least Blood Crypt soon. We need at least three fetchable red/black sources.
- I did not cast Abrade but with all those Death and Taxes, Eldrazi and Chalice I will keep them main.
- Gurmag Angler is a great card but I did not miss him today.
- Engineered Explosive and Liliana of the Veil were good, Fatal Push was great. Maybe Tragic Slip might be even better. I will keep a cmc1 spot-removal.
TL;DR:
Zombardment is super fun and good enough for Legacy! Keep up testing for the flexible slots in this great deck :-)
Greetings Stephan
Why no love for Innocent Blood? Also, could one run this as more controllish version with Smallpox? Thou would be whole different beast then I quess.
Please share your insight, just about to pick missing cards.
Played this weeks Legacy Challenge with 84 players. Went 6-1 and made top 8 where I lost o Death’s Shadow.
Decklist at https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...nge-2018-08-20
Rene Randrup
Ur oppoentn just told me he only had such a great luck against U :) Well done !Quote:
Originally Posted by ReneRandrup
Hey Rene, loving your innovations and big props for your amazing results week after week.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReneRandrup
Will there be any chance you'll start uploading some of your recent matches online? :)
@Rene,
It appears to me like the mtgo meta is seeing a wave of Death's Shadow as the main replacement for Grixis Delver. Perhaps Decay > Bob would be a good addition? I've always found we have good matchups against grindy decks and combo decks while we struggle against hyper-aggressive strategies and prison decks. Bob exacerbates this aspect while Decay mitigates it.
Why only 3 TS? Isn't it our best T1 play in the blind G1? Is it because of Bob? If so, why Bob over TS?
I see you are not a fan of Scourge and you seem to like having 2 Bridges. I think Bridge is clunky and that 1 copy always gets the job done. Scourge is an even more popular avenue for me because he gives me specifically everything I need to win certain matchups (mainly non-white control and Delver). I guess one could argue that they are functionally similar while Bridge has more explosive potential. One of the main appeal to Scourge IMO is the fact that it requires less/different setup than Bridge and therefore the split package is more versatile. What is your opinion on the matter?
Is Phyrexian Altar really good or mostly a fun-of? I have a hard time believing it's actually good for the functioning of the deck compared to a 3rd Bombardment for instance.
Thanks and keep up the good work!
I played around with Alter (and most of Rene's list) and I found that it is really nothing more than part of a 3 piece combo of Gravecrawler, Bridge, and Alter to make infinite zombies. While Rene's decks have put up results and I am not in love with the Alter combo and would rather have something like the 3rd bombardment, a Bitterblossom, or even a fatty (fish or Scourge). So in short, it's cute, can win the game very fast if needed, but is fragile IMOQuote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
I played the following list at a weekly 30 player 4 round tournament:
3 Carrion Feeder
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
1 Scourge of Nel Toth
2 Abrade
4 Entomb
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
3 Lingering Souls
3 Goblin Bombardment
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
3 Badlands
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
//SB
1 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Fatal Push
3 Wear // Tear
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Engineered Explosives
Again, the shop was sold out of Bridge from Below so I played a 3rd Souls instead which is arguably better in some matchups. The room was LOADED with SFM decks... I saw Tundras left and right, Delver with SFM, Maverick, a DnT, Red Stompy and Eldrazi, a couple of Death's Shadow Delver, Dredge, and I am certain the usual Grixis/Czech/BUG Control guys were there too.
R1 0-2 vs. UW Stoneblade with Standstill, Mishra, and Wasteland
G1 I flood and he plays SFM into BSK with FoW and Pierce backup for Therapy and Abrade
In: 2 EE 3 Wear 3 Liliana
Out: 1 Scourge 4 TS 3 Therapy
G2 He has SFM into BSK with double Pierce and double FoW backup while I am stuck on 2 mana the entire game. Looting gets Pierced, Therapy get's Forced, EE gets Pierced and Wear gets Forced. He eventually Surgicals Souls when my only cards in hand are Souls.
We play 2 more games for fun and I get stuck on 2 mana holding 2 Lilies and EE against TNN. He Jaces 5 brainstorms before I hit a 3rd land so I concede. The last game he gets crushed. We then have this little disagreement over the matchup where he believes it is unfavorable for me while I believe the opposite.
R2 2-0 vs. Esperblade
G1 I discard BSK and Abrade Jitte. I ride Souls and Ghast with Bombardment while he struggles with 2 Jaces and a TNN.
Same SB
G2 I answer BSK, Jitte, and RiP with a Therapy and a Wear and grind him out with Liliana.
R3 1-2 vs. UW Stoneblade
G1 I keep a 1 lander with plenty of interaction and put him on Miracles. My 2 Feeders get Plowed. I Therapy his T2 SFM into Jitte naming Jitte but he had BSK in hand and FoW for the flashback. The game is long and grindy but I find the second land too late and TNN and BSK beats me down while I looked for an Abrade all game with 4x Looting + Flashback.
Same SB...
G2 He has Force and Pierce to backup his SFM but I Abrade BSK and race his Jitte TNN for exactsies with Ghasts (until they get Extracted) and Souls with Bombardment.
G3 I deal with Jitte and play through RiP. The game goes long and I am completely flooded with 6 lands. I make a missplay where I therapy in the blind when hes on 4 lands and name BSK because he had not been doing much other than play lands, a Jitte, and counter my 3 Bombardments. Since he had Jitte and BSK in his hand every game I figured he was probably holding BSK because of poor shuffling, and waited on his 5th land drop to play it. He was holding more counters and a Jace which then landed, brainstormed a SFM into BSK while I was holding a bunch of lands and had used up my therapy. I kill Jace and the game goes long while he beats with his BSK. I chump with Souls and wait for one of ten answers that never show. On my last turn I play Liliana but it gets double Pierced and I die.
R4 vs. 2-0 Canadian Thresh
G1 I get stifled but I kept a land heavy hand. Looting for 2 Ghasts and Entomb for Scourge means that he has to counter the 6/6 Flyer I am casting every turn. The demon eventually hits play when I am at 7 life from Goyf beats and I take it from there.
In: 3 Push 3 Liliana 2 EE
Out: 4 TS 4 Therapy
G2 I eat a Stifle but the basics do a good job of blanking his Wasteland. I Push a Goyf and EE a Delver. Bombardment + Souls and Ghast grinds him out while he is holding soft counters for my Lilies.
Given the high concentration of SFM and Chalice decks in my meta, I think a 3rd Abrade over the 3rd Soul would be reasonable, at least until I can get my hands on a Bridge. Abrade is often my only answer to a desperate situation G1.
I hit a lot of bad Stitcher flips and there were no good opportunities to fetch a Bridge throughout my last 2 tournaments. I think I want to review Feeder's relevance in the deck if I choose to play Bridge-less.
All of my stitcher flips are bad to medium with this deck. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios