[Deck] Jund

@ dontbiteitholmes


Your points about the importance of bolts and wasteland are good of course; I just don't think they make bolt and wasteland auto-inclusion in this deck (while they definitely are in tempo decks), especially if we have already great alternatives (Punishing fire).

I'm pretty sold about the cutting of Lightning bolts, while I'd really like to find some space for 3 Wastelands if I could.
My point is: while Bolts can be completely replaced by Fires without hurting too much our strategy, the absence of some form of land desctruction can hurt.

About the other topics:

- Pulse maindeck is not essential, yet sometimes it wins games... getting rid of a bunch of Goblins or Angels is pretty strong, and being so versatile also helps against a variety of permanents. However, I used to play it in the sideboard and I could remove it from maindeck again if needed, especially if I wanna find some place for Wasteland

- I don't get why first you ask the utility of the 4th Hymn, and then you say I'm light vs combo... it doesn't seem much coherent to me. The 4th Hymn is there to fight combo, since it's like the best card we can play against those kind of decks. I really don't understand how you can consider is unnecessary while you think I should play more cards to fight combo.

- the debate of Extirpate vs Surgical: when I play black and I have tons of mana / I'm not playing tempo, then I usually prefer Extirpate over Surgical. Since it usually come in vs combo, it seems to me that the uncounterability is pretty huge to be honest. For example, against a deck full of protection like Sneak attack, split second is a factor not to be ignored.
However, I can understand the reasoning behind the choice of playing Surgical (no tempo loss), it's just Extirpate fits my playstyle better.

- Loam: I don't use it for aggressive Wasteland strategies, but only to protect myself from opponent's Wasteland aggressive strategy. It comes in vs RUG and other mana denial decks like D&T and Pox. It's a silver bullet cause I can't afford more than one, yet it has solved some games when I saw it.
I don't consider it essential, so it can be sacrificed for something better if I find that something.

- Plague vs Jitte: I don't think they cover exactly the same role. Plague is there only for tribal matchups (and for D&T, naming humans), while Jitte would be pretty cute against aggressive decks like Burn or RUG.
It is true that they share of a lot of matchups where they would be both useful, but I simply prefer using the Ooze for life-gaining ability and Plague for tribal.
The other thing is: I don't like playing Jitte in a non-Stoneforge deck, since I can't abuse its potential.
Yet Jitte remains one of the best sideboard cards for this deck, so I fully understand people playing it; it's just another case (like Extirpate over Surgical) of playstyle preferences.

- light vs combo/graveyard decks.
To be honest, this is the only point where I don't agree at all.
In game 2-3, vs combo and/or graveyard I can play: 4 Thoughtseize + 3 Duress + 4 Hymns + 4 Liliana (15 discard spells/effects) + 2 Extirpate (anti-graveyard) + 3 Pyroblast (if playing vs Sneak attack / High tide): that means around 20 anti-combo cards, 1/3 of the deck!
And I'm not even counting the maindeck Shamans and Ooze, which are outstanding vs Graveyard decks.
Combo isn't and will never be an easy match-up for Jund, but I really don't see how I could be "heavier" than this.

I've tried playing a list with 2 bolts and I already found it too lacking in bolts. I like increasing my chances of having one in my opening hand when it matters.

Does anyone play a list with 3/4 decay, 3/4 bolt, 3 hymn, 3/4 pf AND 2 libraries? Or am I asking too much?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kylehyde

I've tried playing a list with 2 bolts and I already found it too lacking in bolts. I like increasing my chances of having one in my opening hand when it matters.

Does anyone play a list with 3/4 decay, 3/4 bolt, 3 hymn, 3/4 pf AND 2 libraries? Or am I asking too much?

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My list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire

4 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp

SB: 3 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Bloodbraid Elf
SB: 1 Sylvan Library

Library in the board is for the control matchup. Library in the main for a punishing model is too demanding.

Why not Duress instead of IoK? I'm assuming the discard is for the combo matchup, so why not be able to take anything, as marginal as taking Tendrils/ETW/ADN is?

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Why not Duress instead of IoK? I'm assuming the discard is for the combo matchup, so why not be able to take anything, as marginal as taking Tendrils/ETW/ADN is?

-Matt

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Allows you to take spirit guides/shardless agent. That has been very relevant for me recently; besides, against storm I'd rather take LED/ritual first

That's fair. You have a reason besides just because, so hooray :P

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kylehyde

I've tried playing a list with 2 bolts and I already found it too lacking in bolts. I like increasing my chances of having one in my opening hand when it matters.

Does anyone play a list with 3/4 decay, 3/4 bolt, 3 hymn, 3/4 pf AND 2 libraries? Or am I asking too much?

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Any non-PFires list. Here's what I'm running right now and I don't see any major changes coming soon:

Mana: 22
3 Wasteland
3 Bloostained Mire
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Basics
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Taiga

Disruption: 18
4 Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
4 Decay
2 Liliana

Creatures: 18
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Confidant
4 Bloodbraid Elf

Other: 2
2 Sylvan Library

Board:
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge

With this list I get to run a what I believe to be a better PFire in the form of Grim Lavamancer without damaging the manabase. Lavamancer/PFires both of their pro's and cons but I've just found Lavamancer to better suit what I need.

Here is my latest list:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Strangleroot Geist

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach

3 Bayou, 2 Badlands, 1 Taiga
8 Fetches
1 of each Basic
3 Wastelands, 3 Grove

Quote:

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Originally Posted by razvan

Here is my latest list:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Strangleroot Geist

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach

3 Bayou, 2 Badlands, 1 Taiga
8 Fetches
1 of each Basic
3 Wastelands, 3 Grove

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Even though you have drs, the geists seems to be really stretching the manabase... though the geist cabal therapy synergy might be worth it

Well, in the offchance that i have hymn, geist and the need to turn 1 bolt something, this sucks, yes. Otherwise, I can mix and match with Bayou and Taiga.

In fact, that is the ONLY reason I have Taiga.

They have been nothing short of amazing though. Drawing a FoW, or even a 1st turn Thoughtseize every time. They are surprisingly hard to deal with.

Also, again, Jitte. The card is so amazing.

How come so many lists play only 3 BBE main? In my limited testing playing the deck I feel like BBE has been one of the strongest, if not the strongest, card in the entire deck. Granted I have played against a lot of Jace decks so that might have something to do with it.

Also how come so many people are so incredibly hot for Hymn? That card seems occasionally amazing, often lackluster and most of the time rather mediocre.

Regarding Lightning Bolt I think it is a powerful and efficient enough spell with broad enough application to play at least 2 md. I don't like 4 PFire as usually you only want 1 and the Grove part of the combo is the most important piece. So more bolts and shave some Pfire seems best imo.

Also, Sylvan Library is completely nuts in this deck and if you feel like they suck in multiples at least run 1 and a Sensei Top or 2 in place of the other.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eldpojken

How come so many lists play only 3 BBE main? In my limited testing playing the deck I feel like BBE has been one of the strongest, if not the strongest, card in the entire deck. Granted I have played against a lot of Jace decks so that might have something to do with it.

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She has her weaknesses. Mainly the fact that she costs 4 mana. The random nature of Cascade means she's good at gaining general card advantage, but not so great at dealing with very specific situations (say, opponent having an active Jitte, or being about to combo off).

Quote:

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Also how come so many people are so incredibly hot for Hymn? That card seems occasionally amazing, often lackluster and most of the time rather mediocre.

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When is Hymn mediocre? I understand, before the printing of DRS, the mana cost of BB used to be a serious concern, but today?

BBE: From playing the deck I felt like most of the reason I was winning was because of BBE, Bob and Library just completely overpowering whatever my opponent was doing and basically any cascade was usually good enough. THe casting cost is a fair point but in what specific matchups do you often feel that is a great hindrance, and is she still good in those MUs?

Hymn: You are often spending 2 mana (of the same color as you said) at sorcery speed on a spell that does nothing to impact the board. On the draw this can be a real concern in certain types of MUs. It is always a 2 for 1 but I think people overestimate that because oftentimes they will discard 2 cards that weren't superb while you used up a card that instead could've have been something that really put pressure on your opponent. Now you spent time and resources and might not have gotten a "real" 2 for 1 considering the strength of the discarded cards and the opponent might just draw out of it. This is a big concern when sticking many Hymns in your deck since they often are really weak topdecks past turn 4 or so and such a card MUST be really strong on the first few to to warrant inclusions which I don't think Hymn is consistently enough. In general I think people just remember the times when it hits perfect cards and freewins for them and then they use it too much as a crutch to avoid actually playing the game and just hoping to freeroll. It also does not give any information about the rest of the hand unlike something like Thoughtseize. I think there are better ways to combat combo than auto jamming 3-4 Hymn in this deck, but again, I haven't played that much with this particular archetype to tell.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eldpojken

BBE: From playing the deck I felt like most of the reason I was winning was because of BBE, Bob and Library just completely overpowering whatever my opponent was doing and basically any cascade was usually good enough. THe casting cost is a fair point but in what specific matchups do you often feel that is a great hindrance, and is she still good in those MUs?

Hymn: You are often spending 2 mana (of the same color as you said) at sorcery speed on a spell that does nothing to impact the board. On the draw this can be a real concern in certain types of MUs. It is always a 2 for 1 but I think people overestimate that because oftentimes they will discard 2 cards that weren't superb while you used up a card that instead could've have been something that really put pressure on your opponent. Now you spent time and resources and might not have gotten a "real" 2 for 1 considering the strength of the discarded cards and the opponent might just draw out of it. This is a big concern when sticking many Hymns in your deck since they often are really weak topdecks past turn 4 or so and such a card MUST be really strong on the first few to to warrant inclusions which I don't think Hymn is consistently enough. In general I think people just remember the times when it hits perfect cards and freewins for them and then they use it too much as a crutch to avoid actually playing the game and just hoping to freeroll. It also does not give any information about the rest of the hand unlike something like Thoughtseize. I think there are better ways to combat combo than auto jamming 3-4 Hymn in this deck, but again, I haven't played that much with this particular archetype to tell.

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Do not think of hymn as a discard spell or an anti combo spell. It's not that; not really. It's more of a means of generating card advantage and tempo. It's part of what makes jund DTB: its color combo is rather weak, but most of the deck are 2-for-1s. Pulse, pfire, BBE, Hymn--these cards pull you so far ahead or put your opponent so far back that jund just crushes its opponents.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

Do not think of hymn as a discard spell or an anti combo spell. It's not that; not really. It's more of a means of generating card advantage and tempo. It's part of what makes jund DTB: its color combo is rather weak, but most of the deck are 2-for-1s. Pulse, pfire, BBE, Hymn--these cards pull you so far ahead or put your opponent so far back that jund just crushes its opponents.

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I don't consider it an anti combo spell but a lot of people seem to think of it mostly as that. As for considering it a discard spell.. well that is what the card does if you read the text, relevant or not.

Aside from that you didn't really contend with any of my arguments and mostly spouted obvious statements that doesn't say anything about wether or not Hymn is better than another spell in the slot. For instance, if your criteria for cards that "pull you far ahead" is that they are 2 for 1's or better, then just stick 12 Planeswalkers in your list and proclaim it the DTB. Please give some arguments for or against why you think the effect of the card is worth including, in which matchups its strong (or even necessary) as well as weak and then hopefully we can see the reasoning that lead you to use slots (the most precious resource in deck design) for Hymn over something else.

As for Hymn generating tempo, please elaborate. To me it is pretty clear that the card only loses tempo as it costs 2, is a sorcery, and does not impact the board in any way. It does generate card advantage, but as I said in my previous post, that card advantage oftentimes isn't a "good" 2 for 1 in the sense that you trade a card that could've been something useful in the matchup instead, for 2 cards that may not be very relevant for the matchup, which might still be ok for you, but does cost you BB and often a full turn, which ofc is horrendous if you need to be the aggressor in the matchup and apply actual threats to your opponent.

BBE cascading into hymn is pretty cool.

Here's a 12th place in 1365players Grand Prix Punishing Jund deck:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10647&iddeck=77696


Creatures [15]
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants [9]
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire

Sorceries [6]
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

Enchantments [2]
2 Sylvan Library


Planeswalkers [4]
4 Liliana of the Veil

Lands [24]
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
2 Duress
1 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Pithing Needle
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction

Looks pretty strong IMO. I'd change the sideboard here due to more SnT combos but the top 16 in the tourney almost didn't feature combos so I guess he was spot on it for the meta there.
I'm curious to know how did Pernicious Deed turn out on his matches too.

Why Hymn is great imho:

- it follows the "2-for-1" theme of the deck

- we are a bit light vs combo, especially in game 1, and playing Hymn can turn a game completely if it hits combo pieces. Turn 1 Thoughtseize followed by turn 2 Hymn means a combo opponent will likely need several turns to rebuild his hand, which gives us time to beat him down and/or to disrupt him even more with other discard and Liliana.

- yes, Hymn can hurt "tempo". But we shouldn't care too much about "tempo", because we are NOT a tempo deck.
We play little mana denial and we are not as fast as decks like RUG, which has super-efficient beaters like Mongoose and Delver.
We are a mid-range deck. We are not forced to win early, because our mid game is great and we can grind out victories even vs control decks.
Playing Hymn instead of a Goyf would be terrible if our plan was "win as fast as you can", but that shouldn't be Jund's goal imho.
The only type of opponents where we should hurry up are combo decks, and vs combo Hymn is like the best card we can play anyways.

- yes, they are often terrible topdecks.
But they are as terrible in topdecking as they are great early.
In fact, the randomness of the discard effect can lead to 2 separate kind of arguments, empathizing the weaknesses but also the strengths:
- weaknesses: you can't choose the cards to discard
- strengths: you can make the opponent discard lands! Thoughtseize, Duress and Inquisition can't hit lands, while Hymn can. Forcing the discard of a land on mana-light hands can mean game over in many matchups.
And since Legacy is a mana-light format where people often starts with 1-land or 2-lands hands, an early Hymn hitting a land or even 2 is one of the strongest effect I can think of.

- since we are already playing 3-4 Liliana, I don't think "BB" is such a problem to be honest. With lots of fetchlands, Shaman and something like 3 Badlands, 2-3 Bayous and a Swamp, it shouldn't happen too often to be color-screwed.

- the "selective memory" argument, according to which we only remember the times where a certain card (or a fact, generically speaking) has been great and not when it has been weak.
Well, a part from the fact that often it works the opposite ways (we probably remember better the worst memories than the best ones), I also remember very clearly the times where Hymn has been great... for the opponent! So many times I've been beaten by Hymns forcing me to discard some key pieces.
In some grindy matchups vs other B/G/x decks like BUG, sometimes the victory goes to the deck who has played the earliest Hymn.
I remember a recent playtesting against a guy playing BUG, where the main difference between the 2 decks was the fact he was playing 4 Hymns MD and I was playing just 3... I found out that the higher chance to play Hymn earlier than me was pretty crucial, since usually the game resolved around an Hymn war in the first turns.


For me, Hymn is so strong that I'd really like to find space for the 4th copy maindeck, instead of playing 3 MD and the 4th in SB.

So, considering I'm just started playing this deck, what do you think is the best approach for the G1?
I'd think Turn 1: Deathrite for a Turn 2: Thoughtseize + Hymn to Tourach to be the ideal, but then if I get a comb odeck for opponent, a t1 Deathrite might just be a bad move. Would you depend choosing it based on if you are the first to play (in this case Deathrite) and then if you are on the draw to Thoughseize instead?

EDIT: Also, I see a lot of lists running Pernicious Deed on the sideboard. Doesnt this card hurt Jund itself a bunch? Wouldn't Engineered Explosives be a better option due to be able to pinpoint the problem?

Against an unknown opponent, I'd say T1 Thoughtseize is always the best move, both on the draw and on the play.

You don't want them to win in their turn 1 if you can avoid it, and there are different combo decks that can do it, Belcher and TES above all.