Pardon my ignorance, but how does this deck beat Sneak and Show? Isn't 4 emrakul GG for you? You can't really make them draw a card after they're out of cards in library since you're red. Please tell me I'm missing something.
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Pardon my ignorance, but how does this deck beat Sneak and Show? Isn't 4 emrakul GG for you? You can't really make them draw a card after they're out of cards in library since you're red. Please tell me I'm missing something.
Ensnaring bridge, revoker on sneak, red blasts for snt. Dork beatdown and jaya g1. Crypts, koth, more beatdown game 2Quote:
Originally Posted by Clown of Tresserhorn
You board out your Grindstones for the aforementioned Bridges, extra Revokers and/or blasts, and what ever else can be used against them by shaving an artifact mana, recruiter or what ever depending. It's true your mill plan is bunked, but your Moons are still strong because it does slow their mana development which means it buys time for your dork beatdown plan. Jaya/PS is plan A, but getting the beats on with your 1/X and 2/X critters will often seal the deal.
In the past I have had SnT players use Through the Breach in sideboard games against me when I would name Sneak Attack with Revoker. Later on they admitted they boarded a number out for that very situation (they were familiar with Painter) Honestly, I will first name Griselbrand with Revoker instead of Sneak Attack on a blind play. If they drop a Sneak Attack and pass then of course I'll be naming it with a Revoker in hand, but most of teh time Griselbrand is more dangerous because he'll draw another X hands before and after connecting and then they have all the gas in the world to deal with your side of the board or just kill you the next turn.
I tested it last night at my LGS in a very small tourney. Overall really liked the white.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Im playing 5 fetches (4 mesa, 1 marsh flat), and 1 plains. Getting white before moon isnt too bad. PLUS!!! I used E tutor to just get moon turn 1, then slam it turn 2 in games that moon just ended it.
However, seeing the polarization between moon with fetches and 2 duals, I am playing 4 lotus petal. I had no problems getting white within a few turns after a moon, and I get to "choose" to play the moon when it best benefits me.
Definetely gonna keep testing this. I may just become a convert to the splash!
I did like what I tested of the White splash, but fetching a white makes dropping a Moon harder. Maybe running more petals is the answer. I might jump back in and test that.
Nah, you just fetch up a mountain or plateau.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Remember: You don't play a moon just to play a moon. It should be devestation to your opponent. So, shutting you off white temporarily should not matter.
Hypothetically say you have:
City of Traitors, Arid Mesa, Petal, Blood Moon, Painter, Ancient Tomb, E Tutor
You "could" turn one blood moon here and shut off your tutor, or you can play painter and petal turn 1 to tutor up the grindstone for a turn 2 win. Only against a greedy land base deck would I turn one the moon here, but if you do against shardless BUG, doest really matter that you shut your E tutor off.
I am currently in the middle of testing out 3 different variations based on the current overall meta, which seems to be more creature decks.
1st:
7 sol
3 fetch
2 furnace
7 mountain
1 petal
4 ssg
3 top
4 stone
2 bridge
2 revoker
3 welder
4 rec
4 painter
1 jaya
1 magus
2 looting
4 moon
4 pyro
2 reb
board:
4 firebolt (from seth's months old list, pretty good synergy with overall deck. more description at bottom)
4 crypt (don't want to lose to graveyard. I feel like most lists are skimping big time)
1 bridge
1 koth
1 manic
4 undecided slots (combo of martyr, ratchet, leyline, trinisphere most likely)
That is my generic current list for a Welder build. The real innovation comes in these next two lists
Only change from above is -1 furnace, -1 mountain, -1 petal for +3 Grove of the burnwillows. SB -4 firebolt, +4 punishing Fire. It remains to be seen which works out better. Obviously this change can't be used with any type of splash and can't have any more than 5 moons. Fires has similar synergy with the deck as you can grind them into your yard.
Lastly a white splash as it frees up a lot of board space
Main will have 2-3 tutors, and down to 1 bridge.
2 bridge
1 trinisphere
1 ethersworn
4 firebolt
1 koth
1 manic
Some amounts of grave hate and other stuff etc.
Burn has always been nice but it sucks when you draw it in matchups that don't matter. Seth was really onto something boarding the burn way back when and as long as people want to grind out creature advantage it is nice to have again. Above is a short summary of the different directions I may take. Anyone have thoughts on it?
I guess I'm still skeptical about this, since:Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
1) Your clock is astronomically slow
2) If they even fetch 1 island, they're pretty much immune to blood moon (SnT even plays them in the SB).
3) They have way more card selection than painter.
All of this, of course, is speculation. Painter + Jaya does seem pretty savage. I should mention that I have Reuben Bresler's build sleeved up, which would explain my discomfort with the SnT matchup. I plan on replacing the Chandra's with an additional SDT and bolt. Also, it feels like the SB should have atleast 1 GY removal spell (probably Crypt).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clown of Tresserhorn
I disagree with Jandax's board plan. I always take out moons against Sneak and never take out recruiters against any deck. They even play their own moons sometimes. I bring in Koth, whatever extra bridges I have, and crypts to make up the difference. Moon sucks for the reason you mentioned. 1 island and its rough. They also play petals.
Sneak and show really isn't that bad of a matchup if you know how to play it. Beatdown goes faster than you think a lot of times. You can chain recruiters and whatnot into revokers or SSGs. If you revoke sneak and/or blast their first show and tell, it might take them a while to recover. Koth can kill very quick too. Like I said, not playing grave hate in the board just takes out so many angles of attack, since sometimes becoming a three card combo deck is better than trying to play as a bad control deck with minimal card manipulation
Jack
I like the list. I agree more sideboard hate for the graveyard not less. I think people forget that strong sideboard cards not only work defensively against dredge and DRS but can be offensively with your combo. Crypt and Rest in Peace allow you to combo through Eldrazi. They with Bridges really do give you a chance. Moon is largely trash in the match ups with Eldrazi anyway. Moon is also mostly garbage against most other competent combo players. It is strongest against mid range, RUG, and Jace decks. Which luckily that makes up over half the meta.
I am happy you have tried out the Firebolt. Residency has kicked my ass, but when I was testing last I loved it.
For anyone testing the white splash I recommend at least considering the following cards:
Rest in Peace
Helm of obedience
SoLS
Peacekeeper
O Ring( I think this card is still stronger than the recently spoiled Chained to the Rocks, although the card has potential)
How are people finding planes walkers in the decks? The new Chandra seems interesting, and while she fits the overall strategy of the deck I am not sold she is as n alternate win condition. What have others thought?
Seth
Thanks for mentioning chained to the rocks it completely slipped my mind. Maybe it deserves one slot as a e-tutorable stp.
Regarding Chandra, I haven't used her. If I did, I could only see her being great in an ensnaring bridge version. In that she would be a miniature jace. There are too many creatures that don't die to the plus 1 and can just attack once to kill. Maybe someone else wants to test it. I have too many other ideas to worry about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clown of Tresserhorn
The thing is, my plan was just a ground work for how to approach the matchup. Moons slow them down but don't stop them, and when combined with things like Bridges and Thorns, you stand a shot at pulling off your dork beatdown, or at the very least get Jaya/PS on line. Koth is good beats, I like him. But I just don't think the three card combo (Crypt, GS, PS) is an out to play for. Vs Reanimator hell yeah, but not SnT in my experience. The more time they spend doing their thing the more time they buy you. I'd say w/o a doubt Blasts are golden in this matchup, as they'll often sculpt a counter hand to either wait for you to try and resolve one of your threats or protect their combo with three or four counters of their own. Again, I've had my wins when Thorns and Bridges were on the table. To me those must be the cards you want to fan open and have resolve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
The PFires version seems sweet, honestly. I was running a build for a while with Magma Jet's (like Drew) for a while, and recently changed to a more Welder-centric build due to most grave hate being Deathrite Shaman that only hits Painter. In doing so, dropping burn and switching to Faithless Looting made the deck feel a bit more like a combo-ish deck rather than a mono-red control deck, which is generally how I tend to play it. I found grindstone more often and was more resilient when trying to combo off, but had trouble with stopping my opponent's plans as effectively as I did with Magma Jet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
Grove/PFires seems like it can help in that regard in the matches you want it and provides inevitability as well. I'll be interested to test it out if I can ever find time to play magic again.
Except Blood Moon is probably stronger than PF/Grove. Then you just have a bad red Control deck.
@ kapn cook's list:
How has the two maindeck Bridges been for you? Seems that most matches we lose comes from either getting beat down, or from Eldrazi decks, so maybe it's not a terribad idea to run two or even three main. Just prepare for the bad matchups by presideboarding, huh?
Also, if that's going to be the case, wouldn't a Welder heavy build be of more use? This is just an open ended question
I was playing 1 magus main, went back to 2 and asked myself could maindeck bridge be more beneficial to my build and decided yes. So I cut 1 magus and the 7th blast since it seemed a little overkill (except against Omni). Anyways, the bridges are good against almost all DTB's and allow you to steal game 1s fairly often and against random decks. Dredge, sneak, merfolk and reanimator (tidespout/aod only out) can't beat it g1. Delver decks can't remove it except bug and it slows down a ton of others like dnt and gobs. Looting pitches whatever shit you don't need in certain matchups, but like I said in my other post, it may be better to run 1 bridge and etutors so you get cooler stuff from the board and better maindeck utility, especially since heavy moons has never been my forte.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
I never said punishing fire was good or bad but it deserves like 50 games of testing or so. The best part is that the fires would be in the side so moons are still as good as always main. We don't care too much about the opponent gaining life either. Then post board if you have moons and fires you can decide what roll you want to take and can evaluate your opening hand accordingly. Only time will tell which I like better, but I am definitely happier running whatever burn spell you fancy in the side.
As far as odds of drawing the Bridge go, if you want to see it game ones most of the time, would three not be a better number? Thinking back to my losses over the past two tournaments, a game one Bridge would have been game itself, so I'm going to jam three with three welders to see if that's too clunky. It may just be the adaptation the deck needs to stay afloat given the recent success of iPainter in the SCG coverage and people's over all awareness of the deck and Blood Moon
I am not sold on Bridge. I mean I run it in my side but its not that great against all the decks listed. You are not going to stop Goblins with Bridge, DnT either often. If I was going to run a card to lock with it would be Meekstone. It locks out the other decks listed and you do not need to race to drop your hand. I find that to be the hardest thing to do. Also against a deck like Goblins the power of most of the beaters is 1 or 2. Piledriver, the one to fear in beatdown mode is 1 when you first attack with it.
My issue has always been that we have a rather high mana curve and a limited supply of coloured mana. Sometimes drawing Jaya while you have a Magus in your hand is enough to stop you from ever being able to empty your hand with the haste needed.
If you are totally sold on Bridge, I would look at running a full Welder build with LED's as a mana source.
Actually, I am considering cutting bridge. the current meta lacks fast aggro decks, like zoo. I only board in bridge against sneakattack. Against thresh or jund, I donnot even board bridge in, instead I run relic, which may be better in my opinion. And bridge is totally useless against tribal decks. And as for Death and taxes or maverick, I prefer more removal to bridge.
In regards to Meekstone: it doesn't stop eldrazi.
I'm playing the white splash right now, and really want to make room for 1 main bridge.
I think it's a huge mistake to cut bridge. It stops the beats period and it is not difficult to empty one's hand or keep the count low. Sure Piledriver starts off as a 1/2, but any Magus or SSG or whatever can trade with it. Jaya shoots it down while keeping your hand in check for Bridges. It's up to play style in the end, but Bridge solves a lot of problems for this deck.