Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
12 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
4 Time Spiral
1 Meditate
1 Wipe Away
1 Snap
1 Turnabout
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 High Tide
-sideboard-
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Rebuild
1 Snap
1 Wipe Away
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pact of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Grafdigger's Cage
This is just what I personally run however. The average list will still have a main deck Blue Sun's Zenith, and sometimes -1 Flusterstorm +1 Pact of Negation in the main. As well as no main deck bounce, & -1 Candelabra of Tawnos, +2 Turnabout in the main. Also the Sensei's Divining Tops are a "newer trend" that has spawned more recently, thank you Colin Chilbert / Di.
As far as the sideboard goes, it's more common to see a second Surgical Extraction &/or a Ravenous Trap instead of the Grafdigger's Cage, making everything in the sideboard a Cunning Wish'able target. Some builds do Rebuild, others do Hurkyl's Recall. Everything else is fairly traditional about the sideboard, a lot of 1 of's to make Cunning Wish awesome.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
So I had an idea, and I wanted your guys' opinion.
What about switching a maindeck High Tide into the sideboard permanently and pulling in another counterspell (Pact of Negation, Swan Song, or Spell Pierce) to have 8 maindeck counters and 10 virtual copies of High Tide versus the previous 8 copies Game 1?
Yay/Nay? Just a thought. Might try playtesting it.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
feline
This is just what I personally run however. The average list will still have a main deck Blue Sun's Zenith, and sometimes -1 Flusterstorm +1 Pact of Negation in the main. As well as no main deck bounce, & -1 Candelabra of Tawnos, +2 Turnabout in the main. Also the Sensei's Divining Tops are a "newer trend" that has spawned more recently, thank you Colin Chilbert / Di.
As far as the sideboard goes, it's more common to see a second Surgical Extraction &/or a Ravenous Trap instead of the Grafdigger's Cage, making everything in the sideboard a Cunning Wish'able target. Some builds do Rebuild, others do Hurkyl's Recall. Everything else is fairly traditional about the sideboard, a lot of 1 of's to make Cunning Wish awesome.
How do you feel about the 2/2 Sideboard/Maindeck split with the Flusterstorms and the extra Pact? Does it depend on the meta or just a personal preference? How have you felt about Game 1 about the choice?
How have you felt about the Tops? Has the free card and continual filtering won you games?
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
elijah
So I had an idea, and I wanted your guys' opinion.
What about switching a maindeck High Tide into the sideboard permanently and pulling in another counterspell (Pact of Negation, Swan Song, or Spell Pierce) to have 8 maindeck counters and 10 virtual copies of High Tide versus the previous 8 copies Game 1?
Yay/Nay? Just a thought. Might try playtesting it.
I've seen a successful list packing 3 high tides maindeck, but it was quite a while ago.
Anyway, I don't like the idea: take into account that high tide is blue instant and you have a deck with at least 11 dig spells and 4 merchants already. Chances are you will be struggling to find the other combo piece, Time Spiral, for it is a sorcery.
As far as I am concerned, i'd maximize the odds of naturally drawing into HT rather than putting myself into the mindset that I can still spend a Wish to find it (and three mana is huge) while I cantrip for Islands+Spirals+Protections. The best target for Cunning Wish is pact of negation indeed, so to speak: you really want to use a Cunning Wish for that because the moment where you are more vulnerable to disruption is the moment where you go off starting by high tide and ending up resolving your first (and hopefully last) time spiral; if it's turn 4 you want to spare mana and you want pact rather than flusterstorm sometimes.
Anyway, the more I go in depth on developping a high tide deck, the more I am convinced that it is really a matter of personal preference; I tried many many lists, proxy'ed candelabras, experimented weird cards: and I found that I cannot even consistently play the deck to a win by goldfishing when I play lists that are very different from what I usually play, even though some player was successful with it. I tested the deck that top8'ed in Milan and I found it to be horribly inconsistant in my hands. I know i'm an average player but I can't really help thinking that not playing one copy of Pact of Negation in my maindeck is a suicide, and I really value Intuition to be a miracle card in G1, reducing your chances to fizzle to nearly 0%: also that list packed 4 tops too, and while top is a good card, fullset is really unbearable imho.
What I mean is: just go for a test. If you like it, go for it and don't think about it again just because someone on the internet told you so.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cave
I've seen a successful list packing 3 high tides maindeck, but it was quite a while ago.
Anyway, I don't like the idea: take into account that high tide is blue instant and you have a deck with at least 11 dig spells and 4 merchants already. Chances are you will be struggling to find the other combo piece, Time Spiral, for it is a sorcery.
As far as I am concerned, i'd maximize the odds of naturally drawing into HT rather than putting myself into the mindset that I can still spend a Wish to find it (and three mana is huge) while I cantrip for Islands+Spirals+Protections. The best target for Cunning Wish is pact of negation indeed, so to speak: you really want to use a Cunning Wish for that because the moment where you are more vulnerable to disruption is the moment where you go off starting by high tide and ending up resolving your first (and hopefully last) time spiral; if it's turn 4 you want to spare mana and you want pact rather than flusterstorm sometimes.
Anyway, the more I go in depth on developping a high tide deck, the more I am convinced that it is really a matter of personal preference; I tried many many lists, proxy'ed candelabras, experimented weird cards: and I found that I cannot even consistently play the deck to a win by goldfishing when I play lists that are very different from what I usually play, even though some player was successful with it. I tested the deck that top8'ed in Milan and I found it to be horribly inconsistant in my hands. I know i'm an average player but I can't really help thinking that not playing one copy of Pact of Negation in my maindeck is a suicide, and I really value Intuition to be a miracle card in G1, reducing your chances to fizzle to nearly 0%: also that list packed 4 tops too, and while top is a good card, fullset is really unbearable imho.
What I mean is: just go for a test. If you like it, go for it and don't think about it again just because someone on the internet told you so.
Fair enough. Thanks.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Currently I'm playing this list:
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Merchan Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
3 Repeal
2 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Sensei's Divining Top
8 Fetchland
10 Island
Sb:
2 Graffdigger's Cage
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
3 Swan Song
1 Flusterstorm
1 Snap
1 Intuition
1 Wipe Away
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall (i'm not very sure on which is the best)
1 Surgical Extraction
I have liked Repeal ever. The card is a answer against any kind of permanent hate except Gaddock Teeg. So when I swap the Preordain by Sensei's Divining Top and saw that Top has some problem when drawed in multiples I thought on playing repeal again. It is very good when you are comboing and can cycle it while untapping some lands with candelabra or changing it for two cards with Top and some mana.
Tonight I will record some videos playing against BUG and probably next monday them will be online.
I had some thoughts about my bad beating in Ovinotto (Milan) some weeks ago. I had not tried Swan Song maindeck and I was afraid about play it maindeck and only played one on my sideboard, playing Pact of Negation and Misdirection instead. Now I think Flusterstorm and Swan Song are the best counters supporting FoW in this deck, so I think they are the counters you have to play. I will opt on playing Fluster maindeck and Swan Song on sideboard now beacuse my meta is higher on midrange decks and low in Miracles/Countertop, but I think you can toy with the numbers to adapt it for certain metagames. Also playing three maindeck Repeal let's me less afraid to play against Countertop.
Also, I'm not sure right now on playing Brain Freeze on my sideboard. I rarely needed it. I use to use it to not having to take so many time producing mana to kill with BSZ. The only times when I had to use it were in games were my resources were wasted with multiple Extirpates (Spiral, Tide). I'm also don't know if playing BSZ maindeck I have to play a second one in sideboard. Maybe I can suprime one kill condition on sideboard playing BSZ + BSZ or BSZ + Freeze preseving one slot for a real sideboard card.
About the issue of playing only 3 High Tide maindeck, I don't think it is a good idea. You usually only want it in your sideboard to protect it about being extirpated completely and in game 1 it is very difficult to happen. For games two and three you will side out against any deck with a reasonable probability playing Surgical Extraction.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
You are a well known player, you don't want to run the risk of people knowing that and trying to discard+extract your only win condition :laugh: (just kidding)
Repeal is a good card indeed, it buys you a lot of time, plus you plan to play swan song and repeal can just bounce the token for U if you don't have better targets.
Despite this, I was reading the thread again (like I do sometimes) and I was stuck on these posts where a guy says Capsize is good because it makes infinite mana with candelabra of tawnos: well, now that sdtop-mania has spread all around the High Tide players, I figured out that if you also have a SDT while going for infinite mana, you can also draw your entire library with SDT by activating Top's tap ability and then bouncing it with Capsize.
Taking into account that those two wonderful artifacts stay on the board when you time spiral (therefore you are very likely to have them on the battlefield at some point during your combo), I think someone who's playing candelabras and tops could use this fact to thin some slots in the deck, as capsize acts as a turnabout (with candles) and as a arbitrarily large USZ to himself (with top). Namely when I see people playing 1 USZ maindeck +1 side, either one could be gone for a capsize.
It's just a random idea though.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DuKeLiO
1 Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall (i'm not very sure on which is the best)
Also, I'm not sure right now on playing Brain Freeze on my sideboard. I rarely needed it. I use to use it to not having to take so many time producing mana to kill with BSZ. The only times when I had to use it were in games were my resources were wasted with multiple Extirpates (Spiral, Tide). I'm also don't know if playing BSZ maindeck I have to play a second one in sideboard. Maybe I can suprime one kill condition on sideboard playing BSZ + BSZ or BSZ + Freeze preseving one slot for a real sideboard card.
About the issue of playing only 3 High Tide maindeck, I don't think it is a good idea. You usually only want it in your sideboard to protect it about being extirpated completely and in game 1 it is very difficult to happen. For games two and three you will side out against any deck with a reasonable probability playing Surgical Extraction.
I find Rebuild to be better because for one more mana, you get a card that has cycling stapled to it, and it doesn't target (relevant vs. Witchbane Orb).
Brain Freeze isn't absolutely necessary but it is advisable. Mana Screw DOES happen and you want to have a backup. However, if you really wanted to take this card out from the sideboard you could.
I personally found Blue Sun's Zenith maindeck to be a waste of space.
Very few people play Surgical Extraction or Extirpate maindeck. Having 4 mainboard High Tide is a must. Moving one to the sideboard is a safety precaution that is made vs. every deck G2 and 3 just in case they have Surgical Extraction or Extirpate.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
203995014
I find Rebuild to be better because for one more mana, you get a card that has cycling stapled to it, and it doesn't target (relevant vs. Witchbane Orb).
Leyline of Sanctity is also a card as well. So there's that.
I think Rebuild is better against Chalice decks, because it's really rare to get Chaliced at 3, unless they're tapping out to do it, whereas Chalice at 2 is a thing, especially in a deck with Ancient Tombs and City of Traitors, it doesn't seem unreasonable to see that happen. I debated going down to Hurkyl for decks like Affinity and MUD, but can't bring myself to do it in case I accidentally get caught needing to get around the Chalice.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cave
You are a well known player, you don't want to run the risk of people knowing that and trying to discard+extract your only win condition :laugh: (just kidding)
Repeal is a good card indeed, it buys you a lot of time, plus you plan to play swan song and repeal can just bounce the token for U if you don't have better targets.
Despite this, I was reading the thread again (like I do sometimes) and I was stuck on these posts where a guy says Capsize is good because it makes infinite mana with candelabra of tawnos: well, now that sdtop-mania has spread all around the High Tide players, I figured out that if you also have a SDT while going for infinite mana, you can also draw your entire library with SDT by activating Top's tap ability and then bouncing it with Capsize.
Taking into account that those two wonderful artifacts stay on the board when you time spiral (therefore you are very likely to have them on the battlefield at some point during your combo), I think someone who's playing candelabras and tops could use this fact to thin some slots in the deck, as capsize acts as a turnabout (with candles) and as a arbitrarily large USZ to himself (with top). Namely when I see people playing 1 USZ maindeck +1 side, either one could be gone for a capsize.
It's just a random idea though.
Incredible... I managed to open the eyes of somebody on Capsize :laugh:
If you read the old thread, I think I was already advertising quite strongly for playing Capsize when playing SDT + Candles. I have not enough time right now to explain it again (or find my old post), but I'll try to post something more detailed this evening (if I am ready to go to GP Antwerp).
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Finally the videos are up.
We played 3 games of High Tide against Shardless BUG and 3 games against TES.
http://es-es.twitch.tv/evolutiongoya/b/472826459
I hadn't thought on the Capsize + Sensei issue, so may be I'll try it. I liked when I played it some years ago beacuse I could bounce every permanent on my opponent side before playing a Spiral.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DuKeLiO
Finally the videos are up.
We played 3 games of High Tide against Shardless BUG and 3 games against TES.
http://es-es.twitch.tv/evolutiongoya/b/472826459
I hadn't thought on the Capsize + Sensei issue, so may be I'll try it. I liked when I played it some years ago beacuse I could bounce every permanent on my opponent side before playing a Spiral.
Thanks for these.
Don't know if someone commented on it (watched without sound), but last game against TES you could have Surgical Extractioned one of your own spells (failing to find the card) just to shuffle your library, and use Top to see 3 new cards.
Keep'em coming!
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
The problem with that play is that I have already a Time Spiral on Top of my library, so maybe is easier to find one High Tide on one card rather than the Tide and Spiral with 3 cards; but maybe be your play is better, I didn't do the math.
The comments haven't too much value, beacuse neither people know about Legacy enough, but are fun if you speak spanish.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DuKeLiO
The problem with that play is that I have already a Time Spiral on Top of my library, so maybe is easier to find one High Tide on one card rather than the Tide and Spiral with 3 cards; but maybe be your play is better, I didn't do the math.
The comments haven't too much value, beacuse neither people know about Legacy enough, but are fun if you speak spanish.
You can stack the top look, then draw and surgical before the look resolves, giving you the Time Spiral in hand and a look to find a High Tide in 3 cards.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DuKeLiO
The problem with that play is that I have already a Time Spiral on Top of my library, so maybe is easier to find one High Tide on one card rather than the Tide and Spiral with 3 cards; but maybe be your play is better, I didn't do the math.
The comments haven't too much value, beacuse neither people know about Legacy enough, but are fun if you speak spanish.
Guess I wasn't clear. I'm talking about 2:10:00. You had resolved 2 Tides, had a Top, and started resolving a Brainstorm with 3 lands up, having 3x lands, 2xFluster, Tide and Surgical. For me, putting back 2 lands, and Surgicalning something would have gotten you to see 3 cards with a possible 9 mana.
I speak Portuguese, so maybe will try to put sound on later to see if I can catch anything. =]
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Anybody making the treck to Indianapolis this Sunday besides myself?
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Sorry I am a little late on this but I did play today in indy. Was going strong at 5-1 lost round 3 to esper deathblade. After round 6 I faced uwr delver and then round 8 rug delver. This deck is my achilles heel and I need to work on this match up. Round 9 I faced a white blue concoction of snap caster mage venser the lab that lets you bounce a wizzard and stoneforge mystic. In this last match up he had better hands and more outs. I beat 2-0 something round 1 honestly didn't see much from this guy other than black discard but he was running other colors. Round 2 I beat tin fins 2-0 then round 4 2-1 ad naus. Final games consisted of him playing 9 spells me countering 1 for a total of 10 storm after playing tendrills. I had remora out and I flustered his tendrills but he had 3 led and mana floating to more than enough pay for it. Then I pact of negation one copy. While at a lonely 1 and having to pay 5 during my upkeep things were looking quite grim. However I played high tide then turn about then untaped my three mana with candle and paid for the pact. I returned with vengeance and killed him. Round 5 2-0 junk and then round 6 2-0 sneak and show. believe it or not I won game 2 off the back of a 2/2 bird token. I was in the start of going off I had bstorm and time spiral in hand I went to b storm for any possible counter back up he swan songed my spell then I played spiral to get around 5 or 6 counters and some land. He didn't drawl much and I beat him from 12 to 0 with the token. There are changes that I need to make in this deck and I'm going to do some heavy testing in the next couple of weeks or months till I get it all down.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Has anybody seen this??
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...7&iddeck=86948
No candles, 4 tops (too much in my opinion), 407 bodies, top 8.
GC.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GoldenCid
Yeah, we were discussing it 3-4 pages ago. 4 Tops are too much but redundancy and consistency are very good when metagame is infested with those boring midrange discard decks. Most interesting aspect in that deck is that he's probably the only one high tide list to ever make such an important result with 3 cloud of faeries. He said that their versatility (cycle, chumpblock) makes up for the fact that they are a bad untapper when compared to candelabra. Plus, if your main goal is to brainfreeze, faeries can do a lot of spells and mana when snapped/echoing truth'd.:laugh:
I envy him though, I can't really play this deck without an intuition md in g1. Way too good.
