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The new triple black enchantment, Dark Prophecy would only work with some sort of assured reccurence strategy of Ghasts and Spirit. Probably too fragile to set up and not immediately uber Crush-y. It would obviously work well with my personal favorite Black enchantment, Bitterblossom, but the lifeloss would be too severe to be viable.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=370596
The reason why card draw+life loss=bad is that Pox's card advantage lies in it's virtual CA, not 'draw more cards' advantage like Standstill or Sign in Blood etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
The two approaches I've tested for improving Top Decking involved Sensei's Top and just having stronger permanents on the field [Lili + Cursed Scroll]. Ultimately, the 2nd route proved a success so it's better to have lock pieces rather than hard card draw.
Yeah, the deck can win without card draw or filtering. If so then why try improve it in an area it does not need improvement? Nowadays i just look for stronger cards, and the right mix of them.
Could HPM work into a more controlly, less aggressive Pox build such as this? IMO I see it playing better in a creature-light deck.
//23 hand-land
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
3 Pox
//7 pains in arse
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Cursed Scroll
//4 beaters:
2 Haunted Plate Mail
2 Nether Spirit
//26 mana sources:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
11 Swamp
This has the boost of Dark Rituals plus almost no creatures to max out on value of Plate Mail and Innocent Blood effects. Dropped to 3 Pox to facilitate Cursed Scroll activation and Plate Mail casting. Maybe it should be -1 Pox + 1 Ghost Quarter?
Any value in running Disfigure in the SB instead of Funeral Charm/Darkblast, to deal with DRS and SFM and other Squires? This list could hypothetically support Damnation in an aggro-heavy meta, or Nether Void in a spell-heavy one.
What do you guys think of this list? I've had a tremendous amount of success with it. 15-3 in overall games and 7-1 in matches. I beat sneak and show twice, esper deathblade twice, hive mind, dredge, a random planeswalker build, and lost to storm in a very close match. RUG, BUG delver, merfolk, elves, enchantress, jund are fairly easy match-ups as well. Surprisingly, Goblins can be a bit hard, but I'm yet to find a deck that really does well consistently against it.
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Mox Diamond
2 Sylvan Library
4 Dark Confidant
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Chrome Mox
19
1 Life from the loam
1 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
3 Sinkhole
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
17
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Swamp
24
SB
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Rest in Peace
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Necroplasm
2 Duress
2 pithing needle
Justifications:
Pithing needle main: wrecks deathrite shaman, fetches, sneak attack, griselbrand, stoneforge, aether vial, wirewood symbiote, like all of maverick, all cool lands, and i could go on. regardless of where you play and what the meta is, if you're playing legacy, pithing needle will almost always be a "wish I had one of those now" for any pox deck, so might as well main deck a couple.
ensnaring bridge: good for goblins, and slowing down very fast decks. this build is slightly slower than the average pox build, so you really need a hoser like the bridge. resolve this card G1 against really any deck that beats down with creatures, and liliana will ride you to victory
BOB: my absolute favorite card in this deck. he is an utter and total house. if you don't believe me then play test with him, and he has surprising good synergy with smallpox. have both in your opening hand? simply play smallpox first. have just bob in the opener? play him, and even if you draw smallpox next turn, he's already replaced himself. how often do you get to the point where you've wrecked you opponent but you're left out of resources? bob does the trick for you.
4X tabernacles between main and board: i just have them and want to use them. they maybe could be replaced with better cards, but its up there with bob as one of my all time favs. as long as i own 4, I'll likely use em.
This build really relies on the SB and does quite well in the combo match-ups. If given one turn, it will rarely lose. Its not your typical pox build. It sacrifices a bit of early explosive consistency with late game dominance, and given the right hand, t1 bob, hymn, or library is too good a start for most decks. Yes, there is a bit more variance with the opening hands in this build as opposed to the good ol mono black version, but the nut draw for this deck is about as good as it gets. I've won many games with a T1 hymn (mox diamond), followed by a smallpox, followed by a wasteland and Bob.
What are your thoughts?
Nice list! Using Moxen to power out extremely powerful 2cc spells early and the burying them with Liliana. Have you thought about running Chalice of the Void in your SB to beat storm, since you can play it turn 1 fairly often with 5 moxen! It would be far more asymmetrical than the spheres. I guess 5spheres works too, but seems like it slows down your own game plan.
As a frequent Goblins player, I can see why Goblins could be a bit hard. You're low on early creature removal (turn 1 Lackey can connect against you somewhat often), Mogg War-Marshall and other card advantage dorks mitigates poxing effects, and their dudes - including Piledriver - can swing right under Ensnaring Bridge. Tabernacle is a beating, but I don't think boarding into 4 Tabernacles - 4 legendary lands that do not produce mana - is necessarily a good solution. Instead of having 2 more Tabernacles in the board, what about making them Crop Rotation or Engineered Plague?
How are your Tin Fins and Reanimator matchups, with potentially no grave hate until turn 2 on the draw, often too late against those decks? If you had Crop Rotations in the board instead of more Tabernacles, then you could both run Rest in Peace and Crop Rotate into a 1-of Bojuka Bog....
It is a very solid list in the traditional mono black Liliana Pox mold, it's not too far off my list. I replaced my singleton Bloodghast with a singleton HPM. We'll see how that goes. 4cmc is never a sure thing for Pox and you'd hate to have to discard your own HPM. I can see why you'd want to use two each of HPM and Spirit to get them out there, but it could be bad to get both Spirits out with no Spinning Darkness. As far as boarded in creature kill, there are many effective ones, including those you mentioned plus, Diabolic edict, Infest, Perish, Dysropia. They all have thier advantages and disadvantages per the meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Very Interesting list. Hard to argue with results. My mono black pox list is very good and wins mostly, but I can't say I went 15-3 with it at any point in a top deck tourney environment, though it is probably something like that in a kitchen table casual Legacy environment.Quote:
Originally Posted by plutajp
I have seen Loam Pox, Solar Pox and Aggro Loam and Deadguy Ale. I guess this list is like a Deadguy Solar Loam Pox. It seems to sacrifice a bit of consistency and synergy for raw power in great cards. It also strikes me as a deck that requires and rewards very skillful play in using Bobs and pox effects well together among other things. The Moxen are vulnerable to certain things, but no doubt add a bit of speed and flexibility. Do the Thalias slow you down as well, as pox has a lot of non creature spells? Also you can kick me one of those extra Tabernacles if yiu go below 4. ;)
Very solid list. Perhaps you could run a singleton Sensei's Divining Top ( maybe -1 Innocent Blood or Pox). Regarding disfigure, i don't like it in the SB. If you wanna deal with Squires you can replace 1 Swamp in the MD with a Cabal Pit (-2/-2 its nice)Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Hey thanks for the input. I actually had Chalice in the SB not too long ago and it didn't work out as well as planned because it was really only good against combo, which sphere effects do a better job of beating. While chalice would win me some games outright, it seemed far too defensive, and not being able to duress or pithing needle were hurting me more than chalice was helping.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Crop rotation was also into there recently and I may add it back, but I'm not too sure yet. My list plays "card" advantage in any way, so 4x tabernacles may lead to 3 "dead" cards, but against any deck that runs wasteland I like matching up 1 for 1 against their land removal. If 4x tabernacles are properly played (especially against wasteland) having those extra three win me multiple turns and win me every mana battle. This is worth much much more than 3 cards. This being said, you are correct, pulling maybe 1 for a crop rotation would seem to make sense as it pretty much is still playing with 4.
Engineered plague is certainly something to consider. I've also given some thought to ghostly prison. Ghostly prison and Tabernacle both out? I don't see how I can lose.
Tin-fins I havent played against yet, but pithing needle will go a long way. I don't think I'll have much of a problem with this matchup because I effectively have nine turn one plays post board. The four one mana discard and the five moxen, playing into my hymns, RIPs, and sphere effects. Tin fins on the play can get me if they go off turn one, but if they give me a turn, i like my chances. Reanimator is a bit harder because of all the counter magic, but theyre not killing me from storm so its really just iona i worry about. Needle can take care of griselbrand and the bridge everything else. If i cant play black though, well I just lose. I still like my odds and dont think the deck is particularly weak against reanimator/tin-fins, its just a harder matchup.
Yeah I guess you're right, Deadguy Solar Loam Pox does seem to be a good way to put it. I couldn't agree more, the deck sacrifices consistency and synergy for raw power. It does this brutally well, but its very hard to pilot. Its all about the mulligan and the SB. The duresses pretty much always have to come in and they pave the way for the power spells. Counters are very good against this deck since it relies on fewer but more powerful cards. If even one is countered, it can really set you back, but you just have to throw your hymns and smallpoxes out in front to clear the way for Bob/lily/library. I feel mono B pox doesn't have this second supercharge that bob and library give me. Its like pox on steroids. Where mono black has just an innocent blood in hand after both players hands are torn apart from discard and counters, I drop a bob or library and rarely lose. Tabernacle is usually what keeps me alive and gets me to this point against faster decks that mono B pox has a better match up with.Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
The deck is still in in its infancy, but I am very excited from its early results. Maybe I just got lucky in my first 8 rounds, but even if I did, I think I've found a home brew I can stick with and spend some time fine tuning.
The Sphere/thalia effects are actually never a problem because they only come in against combo, and having even one field is a world of hurt for any combo deck. Its a small annoyance for me, but it totally shuts them down. And with all the lands I run it usually just sets me back a turn.
Sounds like a good build when playing with that strategy. Be sure and keep us updated with its progress. Are Vindicates a bridge too far? I'm sure you considered them and nixed them for some reason.
You'll have to excuse me if I find this deck strange. This looks like a Rock/Junk deck guest starring Smallpox. If you want to get the most out of it, you should just run regular removal instead of Pox FX. The defense "BoB replaces himself with Smallpox" is actually a con, not a pro. Phyrexian Arena is immune to Poxes and costs less life than when BoB reveals Liliana.Quote:
Originally Posted by plutajp
Pox decks don't run card draw. BoB or Phyrexian Arena, Sign in Blood, or even Underworld Connections just don't work in previous testings. Pox decks shouldn't be weak to its own Pox FX which is why regular creatures outside Tombstalker are usually omitted.
Great Rock list though. :cool:
Yeah, one should always say something nice about peoples pet decks:laugh:
One must pamper their pet decks from time to time and give it treats.
That last list definitely seems awkward - no offense meant.
It doesn't behave like pox and it doesn't even barely ressembles the rock. Too many moxen, not enough synergy for my taste.
Well, the state of Legacy now seems to be much more about powering out cards that are powerful on their own more than synergistically. Pox tries some judo to use this against them and trade with them while trying to break the pox effect symmetry. By skilful play, I mean that to play a deck that fights itself a bit like that, means you have to really play it in a way that you understand intimately. He seems to have some success with it, so more power to him. I'd just like to see if he can keep that up over time. I certainly have a few pet decks: BW Bitterblossom/Siuls tokens and a mono-white Cloudpost deck that is a hoot. None of them have four Tabernacles though!
Strictly out of curiosity as I haven't played Legacy Pox in ages, how's the match up vs. the various combo decks these days?
With Dark Ritual, Duress, Hymn to Tourach, Inquisition of Kozilek, Wrench Mind, Blackmail, Cabal Therapy, and Liliana of the Veil able to be run in any Pox deck, Combo should be a joke. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Grollub
Be careful: Past in Flames combo decks (like ANT) may still win before sideboard (and even after if you don't bring hate).Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata