[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

I was pondering creature bases today and I wondered about a lineup akin to:

4 Confidant
3 Specter
4 Shade
3 Grunt
2 Shortfang

That would completely replace Wretch from the deck with Grunt (Maybe even moving Wretch to the SB) or is Shortfang just kind of a 'meh' creature? For those who've been playing Grunt, have you ever had problems with not getting in enough damage with him before his CU kicks in too much? I know that our deck usually amounts quite abit of cards in its graveyards, and with all the LD and hand disruption against the opponent, they'll have some in their graveyards. So maybe it isn't too much of a problem then, I'm thinking. I should most likely just test the card first.

I've also cut back on 1 Wasteland in my build, as it seems people in my area are leaning more towards mono-colored/heavy in basics decks, so it has performed less than stellar. I've also wanted to add StP to the MD for a long time and when I did and played in my tournament, it was great. Sure they gained some life, but it allowed you to do something everyone has complained about the deck since the beginning: Deal with a threat once it's in play.

My biggest issue with comparing Wretch vs Grunt in these two instances is mainly when the abilities (or ability and upkeep cost, for those of you who are technical about it) actually happen. Grunt requires a continuous upkeep increment of 2 cards per turn, for a 4/4 body. That's really good. Only problem, is this is a requirement for him, not an ability, and only happens on your turn (usually when things have either already happened, or haven't happened yet). Wretch, on the other hand, only a 2/2, and the ability costs 1 to use per card, but it's targeted at instant speed. So at this point, the comparison really depends on what you plan on facing, in my opinion.

Wretch's "strength" decks- Survival, IGGY Pop, Salvager Game, Dredge decks, upkeep recursion (E.Dragon, Ichorid, etc), Eternal Witness abilities, and anything with flashback.

Grunts "strength" decks- Dredge decks (due to insane amounts of cards "thrown away"), cycling decks (Rifter, for example), Threshold (a key DtB for this deck)

So we see that Wretch's activation on the spot ability seems to win out vs Grunt. Now onto our ability to keep them alive:

Wretch- Dies to damn near anything. Bolt, StP, Smother, Infest, a "chained" Darkblast, Contagion.....the list really does go on. 2 mana, and 2/2, with no "fix" to the dying.

Grunt- Dies to ALMOST everything. Bolt/direct damage can't really get rid of this guy as well, causing typically a 2 for 1 (or even a 3 for 1 if they need to use Fireblast). Also lives through Infest, and multiple E.Plagues, and Contagion (even if it is only a 0/2, still a chump blocker).

So Grunt almost hands down has advantage, as commonly seen removal hits both of these guys, but the lesser common burn and black removal spells tends to lose out against him, or have to 2-for-1.

So it's still a bit of a toss up. Casting costs aren't really that much of an issue, depending on how long you can keep your white sources out. Double black is nearly impossible NOT to have, so Wretch has favor there, comapred to Grunt needing one of our 5 sources of white (all of which are non-basic, and mostly dependant on fetchlands). Also, Wretch can be a first turn drop through Dark Ritual, and combine with Cursed Scroll or Duress, that's a good first turn. Small favor in Wretch.

The "cost" to keep around isn't really a comparison. Wretch stays around as long as he doesn't die, Grunt requires continuous payment, but in most cases, he's easy to keep around for probably the first 3-4 turns he's in play, since you're able to split the cost between graveyards. Small favor in Wretch, but not much.

But now we get to threat comparison. Grunt is a 4/4 body, that's really all we want him for. He's a solid clock, and a good blocker. Wretch, a 2/2, with utility ability, can cripple the right decks to the point of losing. So at this point, we come down to speed vs utility. Against typical opponents, what decks will we see, and what is better for them. I'd say this is the easiest "split' case of the deck, where either of them actually really depend on the metagame people are seeing. So my conclusion, consider these 4 slots your "metagame" choices for MD, and adjust accordingly. IMO, there really isn't a right or wrong to choosing one of these over the other.

So after people make their decisions on these two, what else do we think needs to be looked at for possible replacement?

A.) I would never ever ever cut Wasteland. Every good deck runs nonbasics for one reason or another. They're often the best lands in the deck. Wasteland is SInkhole 5-8.

B.) I would never cut Scepter.

C.) I think Grunt is superior to Wretch. Because the hate ability is mostly there for the prevalent Thres matchup. But the 4/4 beat stick is far more important generally.

D.) Nezumi Graverobber may be better than Shortfang for it's synergy with Grunt, not sure though. But it's 4B ability is very relevant. Graverobbing your opponent or your own threats is very strong.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

A.) I would never ever ever cut Wasteland. Every good deck runs nonbasics for one reason or another. They're often the best lands in the deck. Wasteland is SInkhole 5-8.

B.) I would never cut Scepter.

C.) I think Grunt is superior to Wretch. Because the hate ability is mostly there for the prevalent Thres matchup. But the 4/4 beat stick is far more important generally.

D.) Nezumi Graverobber may be better than Shortfang for it's synergy with Grunt, not sure though. But it's 4B ability is very relevant. Graverobbing your opponent or your own threats is very strong.

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A) I'd say it would depend on what you plan to see. In my meta, they're borderline useless and are tapped for colorless mana about 90% of the time. I didn't cut them completely, just down to 3.

B) I didn't even know Scepter was added.

C) DWZ covered those points very nicely.

D) Truth be told, I'm not sold on either one right now. I'm liking the creature base so far the way it is, so only testing will tell whether either is needed.

I added Grunts to the deck over Wretch for the time being, just to see how it works out.

A) It's literally 80% of the time a dead card out here. Threshold loves it, because it makes their graveyard grow that much faster, with no tempo loss vs us, since it's land for land, and they're already typically running more than us. Every other deck out there is 2 or less colors, and work just as many basics in as we have Sinkholes, if not more, so it's still not putting tempo in our favor.

B) Scepter, or Scroll? Cause cutting Scroll honestly is much better than keeping it in, especially if your matchups aren't against Goblins. It was there to pick off the things that annoy us, SGC, Piledriver, Warchief, etc......not to attempt hitting Thresh creatures or other x/3+ stuff, which we see more often now. Most aggro decks now outrace Scroll, it was great against Goblins because their threats really are mainly the Piledriver, which is always x/2.

C) As stated before, it's a metagame choice. I personally don't see Grunt doing much better than Wretch at this point, with Rifter, U/G/w Thresh, Solidarity, or RGSA being the typical matchups I see in the finals. None of those decks are honestly that scared of Grunt, they all pack removal or work around him.

D) Still uncertain myself if either of them work in here. They both cover issues I feel the deck is weak on: continuous utility. One forces discard, one forces graveyard removal. Both are pretty damn useful in this format right now. But Graverobber seems much better, simply because we have ways to kill opponents creatures that are online, and with most situations, we can flip a Graverobber and hit 5 mana pretty consistently.

I will be doing more testing with changes, since I'm already missing most of my Wastelands, I'll continue playing without them. I'm probably still going to be more geared towards playing Solidarity or IGGY, but I still want to see this deck stay a top contender.

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Originally Posted by laststepdown

I'll have to admit, I've had 3 Jotun Grunt in place of Withered Wretch for quite a while. It's huge compared to Wretch-while it comes down the same turn-That's sideboard though-I still run Rotting Giant main. Perhaps I should just take the leap and pull out Giant?

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I think this is a solid move. Jotun Grunt fills every reason you'd want to run a giant (Being an undercosted huge body), and simultaneously takes over Wretch's job as Graveyard Janitor. The dissynergy between Jotun Grunt and Rotting Giant makes a huge difference, as often one or two cards is the difference between getting 2 swings with a Grunt and 3. Rotting Giant seems incredibly weak to me now.

Here's my current test build...

-8 Swamp
+8 Fetchlands

-4 Cards (Samples: Dark Confidant, Scroll, Verdict, Plague (Or Withered Wretch if you have a build that plays that))
+4 Exalted Angel

Confidant has lost me one too many games due to the lifeloss.

This deck needs a finisher desperately. It can annihilate combo and control without the help of Confidant and it can slow the kill of any aggressive deck by a turn or two with the disruption without the help of confidant either.

But the ground battle reaches a stalemate far too easily. Confidant sucks in those many situations where you just stuck there with the ground war at a stalemate desperately hoping to topdeck a Swords or Vindicate.

You can't attack them because they have too many threats, most of them bigger than yours. That seems to happen virtually any time you are facing any of the stompy deck from Fairie Stompy to Angel Stompy and Zilla Stompy.

When you get a Confidant, it only speeds up their kill. Angel is the answer to those situations, the answer that you so wish you could cast with Confidant.

I urge everyone to try this out.

At the very least, I want to and fully plan to run Exalted Angel alongside Confidant, where people squeeze in 4 Withered Wretch. Plenty of decks feel comfortable running FoW alongside Confidant. Atleast Angel gives you the life back.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

Here's my current test build...Confidant has lost me one too many games due to the lifeloss.

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The subtitle of this thread is B/w Confidant. Dark Confidant is the best card in the deck. There is no discussion about 4x Dark Confidant.

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Jotun Grunt is an absolute bomb. I don't know if there should be 2 or 3 played because you can't keep 2 alive and because it requires W but having one is extremely strong. A 4/4 body combined with Yard hate is insane for this deck. The upkeep is pretty easy. Wasteland pays the first, Ritual/Hymn the next, Wasteland, Duress, Confidant etc.

In all honesty, losing Confidant turns this into a bad suicide/control deck. It's already pretty much been agreed he's what Suicide black needed years ago, being the draw engine that's removable + a hitter (unlike Phyrexian Arena and such). He's the core of what the deck functions on, which is why it's such a low curve and so utility driven.

It's true Confidant can lose you games when he's sitting there in a stalemate situation, but the deck would lose at that point with or without him. If at any point in time your so far behind that he's a liability, your going to lose even if it's a finisher in his place, because chances are you wouldn't have drawn into half the cards you had that were keeping you alive without him.

Exalted Angel would be a nice threat, but the deck VERY rarely has double white, which is needed for both casting her, or flipping her. And even then, she'll still die to a majority of the same things that kill most creatures. If we want a solid finisher, it HAS to dodge either StP, bounce, Incinerators, or have some kind of protection elements. If we wanted to go as far as to get a "finisher" that cost that much, we could find better under that casting cost. Not to mention, her life gain wouldn't do this deck any good without providing synergy for Bob to dig further (but it hurts a lot seeing her from his reveal), so we'd have to get a new draw engine to replace him. If we ditch the card advantage he provides, we're basically trying our best to keep up tempo with the opponent.

Also, Exalted is much more the control deck creature. She belongs in a deck that packs enough countermagic to keep her on the table for 5 turns, this deck cannot do that. We would have to hold back disruption just so we have it when she hits the table, because it won't cost much for the opponent to take her out, flipped or not. She slows the deck down too much keeping her alive to provide an adequate clock.

Like I said, Exalted Angel can replace the 2x Plague and 2x Verdict slots in the original build.

Thus it would have synergy with Confidant.

The WW cc shouldn't be a problem when you're running 4 Duals, 8 Fetches, and a Tainted Field or two. That's about the same amount of white sources Angel Stax and about a billion other decks that utitilize Angel run.

Angel is actually fairly hard to remove. Bolts, Smothers, and now that you're running 16 creatures, Edicts won't get rid of her. The only thing that would is a Swords. And I promise you that the Swords would've been well spent on that Specter or that Shade or Confidant as well. Plus you infact do run a lot of disruption. Duress should get rid of their Swords before hands if nothing else.

This is a control deck. Sure it doesn't run countermagic, but it runs Duress, Hymns, Swords and Vindicates to produce nearly the exact same effect (disrupt combo and slow down aggro to the point that you survive till turn 4 when Angel produces huge swings).

We've been saying this deck needs a nice threat for a while now haven't we. Why not sideboard the Verdicts and Plagues in the original build which really don't do all that much, and run Angel in their place.

Tainted Field has really been obsoleted by Godless Shrine, as it's a white source you can search for with fetchlands, and the opening hand of wasteland-field is unkeepable.

The problem I have with Angel (besides the WW of course) is the promotion of 8 fetchlands and more than 1 Shrine, while running Bob. Yes, it gains you life, but I'b be more inclined to run Jitte than Angel for it's casting cost along with board control. When compared to Jotun Grunt, we're talking about the same amount of removal that can kill it (besides Smother) at less than half the CMC.

There's no question that Jitte would be absolutely incredible in this deck. It's incredible in any deck that can support it.

The problem is, this deck can't support Jitte. It simply doesn't run enough creatures. And those that it does run die very easily.

Jotun Grunt similarily is awesome. But it only sticks around for two turns. It's not going to win you any wars of attrition.

Really it comes down to either having a nice threat, which Grunt takes care of, or having continuous disruption, either with Shortfang or Graverobber.

The deck either needs to continue being able to short the opponent on lands, cards in hand, or graveyard hate to keep what we have being enough, or we need to make the Grunt and Shades more abled to kill off the opponent faster.

This is literally what it comes down to.

Disruption is not this deck's weakness. This decks weakness is it's complete incapability to deal with any resolved threat with a butt larger than 2. Sure, it might be able to Vindicate or perhaps trade a Shade with the first. But this is the main reason it has trouble against nongoblins aggro decks.

I've tried Grunt. He does help a bit. But the fact that he only sticks around for two or perhaps 3 attacks if you're lucky, makes him incapable of answering this problem by himself. This is why I'm looking towards Angel.

With a grunt and another dork they may be dead in 3 turns.

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Originally Posted by DeathwingZERO

The deck either needs to continue being able to short the opponent on lands, cards in hand...

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Then let's try Panoptic Mirror! Awesome with Sinkhole or Vindicate. *cough*

I loved Angel myself, but the problem is, that Incinerator and Swords still get her. Not to talk about Landstill, which can burn her down with Bolt+Jet/Fire as well as WoG her.

The second thing is, if you want a Turn 4 Angel its cc are 5WW... you can't disrupt in the 3rd Turn then, unless you have a Ritual to get Angel out and Hymn before.

I'd say because of that, even Sarcomany + Negator would do better in this deck. And this is still not very considered at all - cause it's 8 Slots for a 5/5 Body with a huge drawback. If you can get out Sarcomany before, its much better, but then you can't ritual the Negator out, what will make him less dangerous.

I think Shortfang and Robber are not needed too. I like the idea of putting in Mutilate much more, then upping the creaturecount.

So far,

This may seem REALLY farfetched, but what about Mother of Runes? She's a quick drop, can protect herself if she lives for a turn (short of -x/-x mass spells), and can make any creature typically a threat, or a strong blocker at the very least.

Given, she's not big, and she probably won't stick around long, BUT, she's literally more of a threat than anything else in the deck, just because she makes removal harder to pull off against the real threats.

Anybody got any ideas on this one? There's a good chance it'll get shot down immediately, but the idea of making each of our creatures typically either unblockable or infinite blockers, seems at least worth testing.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

The problem is, this deck can't support Jitte. It simply doesn't run enough creatures. And those that it does run die very easily.

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I've actually been playing 2 Jitte in my build and have yet to have problems with supporting it. So far it's been more of a blessing than a disappointment.

Angel seems like it would be nice, but I think not what the deck needs. I'd be more inclined to hold onto her till the middle/late game when I've disrupted my opponent enough. Of course if I'm winning by then, I'd still be less inclined to drop her. And there have been times when I've been glad the highest cc of the deck was 3. When I've been at 4-6 life, the last thing I'd wanna see would be a random flipped over Angel nailing me to the dome for 6.

@Mother of Runes: She may be definitely worth testing. I just feel that with the whole format gunning for certain other 1/1 body, her chances of surviving could be zilch. But then if they're pointing removal at her, that's a removal spell that's not going to be pointed at one of your other creatures. Still, the ability to make our creatures into infinite blockers is appealing. Or even pushing through that stalemate with a Shade to seal the game. Definitely worth testing.

Do you run Cursed Scroll along with Jitte?

A big problem for me had always been keeping one of your 12 threats alive in a format packed to the brims with removal. Even running 2 Grunts as well doesn't help since Grunts only live for two turns.

Without an accompanying threat, Jitte is downright worthless.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

Do you run Cursed Scroll along with Jitte?

A big problem for me had always been keeping one of your 12 threats alive in a format packed to the brims with removal. Even running 2 Grunts as well doesn't help since Grunts only live for two turns.

Without an accompanying threat, Jitte is downright worthless.

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No, I've long since dropped Scroll, as I found it really lacking. I play 15 (I think) threats, along with the disruption to keep most of them safe. So it's never been that much trouble for me.