Chinese fakes

The guys arguing about the ethics of this are missing the point entirely. This has nothing to do with morality or what is right and wrong. Excessive counterfeiting is the endgame for the current way Wizards handles the rising price of staples, simple as that. You can condemn or justify it as much as you want but that is completely moot. WOTC controls the production of legitimate product and therefore is the only one that has the ability to influence and change this. If you or anyone thinks that any kind of moral argument against counterfeiting will prevent it from happening you are sorely mistaken. Such efforts should be spent on actual methods of managing supply of product to ensure that such an endgame doesn't occur.

Now you may continue your pointless argument.

I think the greatest part of these threads is the showcase of bad analogies. Even setting aside appropriateness (guize, counterfeits are just like murder! and life-saving medicine, too!), every single one of the analogies I've seen anywhere on the subject is both a) part of a silly argument or b) grossly incorrect. (Pro tip: Counterfeits aren't like rooks in chess; you're thinking of a proxy. Pro tip: Counterfeits aren't like poker chips; the closest equivalent in Magic is a tourney entry fee.)

Here's what it comes down to: Stop making analogies. At this point, I'm already resigned to people spending a million billion dollars on counterfeits and pretending that it's somehow the same as making proxies for personal use; I'm already resigned to the fact that people have 0 respect for intellectual property. I'm not resigned to the vapid, mindless analogies, though.

Srsly. Stop making analogies. It'd be like if a lion tried to give speeches to robot tuna, y'knowhatimean?

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Originally Posted by Mewens

I think the greatest part of these threads is the showcase of bad analogies. Even setting aside appropriateness (guize, counterfeits are just like murder! and life-saving medicine, too!), every single one of the analogies I've seen anywhere on the subject is both a) part of a silly argument or b) grossly incorrect. (Pro tip: Counterfeits aren't like rooks in chess; you're thinking of a proxy. Pro tip: Counterfeits aren't like poker chips; the closest equivalent in Magic is a tourney entry fee.)

Here's what it comes down to: Stop making analogies. At this point, I'm already resigned to people spending a million billion dollars on counterfeits and pretending that it's somehow the same as making proxies for personal use; I'm already resigned to the fact that people have 0 respect for intellectual property. I'm not resigned to the vapid, mindless analogies, though.

Srsly. Stop making analogies. It'd be like if a lion tried to give speeches to robot tuna, y'knowhatimean?

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Best post of the thread :)

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

Comparing these fakes to a legitimate product for use in sanctioned events is just ridiculous.

This isn't comparable to using a generic pharmaceutical or pirating music. This is counterfeiting casino chips from Bellagio and heading down to the Texas Hold 'Em table. After all, it's just a game, why should you be excluded?

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Except many people are saying using them in cube or FOR PROXIES is just as bad. It's not. If I want to use my knock off pills to cure myself, i see no problem with that. If I want to use my knock off pills in the Public funded hospitel (sanctioned events) then that is absolutely an issue.

Everyone keeps saying sharpie your own, thats ok, but buying these is not. I call shenanigans. What if my sharpie proxies are really good. Is it ok for me to sell them to my friends? What if i use a printer... There is absolutely no clear line between sharpie proxies, and what these chinese companies are doing. If you are anti proxies for casual use, you have to be anti-every type of proxy.

Now you can pick what side you want to sit on. That is your own opinion, but please stop having this deluded sense that sharpie proxies are ok, but these are not. They are both just as harmful (assuming you are not using them to scam or pass them off as real).

Is everyone here now anti-Cocatrice and MWS? These are "life like proxies". The REAL issue is the passing of these proxies off as real card, not their existence. Now you can debate that if making 100% identical proxies your only goal could be passing them off as real, and that is another issue entirely. But they actual existence is not the issue. It's intent. Which btw is the LEGAL definition of copyright/fair use. I could write thousand word essays on this (and have) but it boils down to what is the intent. I would agree the sellers intent is to make money selling these to people who intend to pass them off as real, but persecuting the people who are saying they want to use them for cube/info is basically calling them a liar. You are saying what they are doing is wrong, only on the basis you assume they are going to pass them off as real.

That said. I am pro proxies for cube/playtesting, and absolutely against using them in any form of sanctioned play.

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Originally Posted by MGB

The guy who wrote that article is simply a Magic speculator who makes all of or part of his living buying and selling Magic cards. I.e. not someone playing the game for the enjoyment of the game.

Again, the only way that players themselves should be concerned about counterfeiting is with regard to its ability to affect the bottom line of Wizards, the producer of the cards, and the ability to affect the bottom line of tournament organizers like Starcitygames.

And the link between event organization and increased supply of fake cards isn't completely proven either. Will Wizards withdraw funding from Legacy events if their product is widely copied? Maybe. They haven't exactly been ambassadors of the format to being with. What does Legacy get now, a Grand Prix a year?

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Well I played the game for enjoyment and I don't stand to profit off the game if time and effort are factored into the equation (yes my cards are worth more than I paid for them but not enough to justify the "profit margin" I will get after I sell them and pay Ebay its 12% cut). Still I was saying pretty much exactly what he was saying before he said it.

The bottom line of game stores which host events and the number and quality of events can't be separated. Hurting game stores which host events means less events which hurts players, period.

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Originally Posted by Technics

Except many people are saying using them in cube or FOR PROXIES is just as bad. It's not. If I want to use my knock off pills to cure myself, i see no problem with that. If I want to use my knock off pills in the Public funded hospitel (sanctioned events) then that is absolutely an issue.

Everyone keeps saying sharpie your own, thats ok, but buying these is not. I call shenanigans. What if my sharpie proxies are really good. Is it ok for me to sell them to my friends? What if i use a printer... There is absolutely no clear line between sharpie proxies, and what these chinese companies are doing. If you are anti proxies for casual use, you have to be anti-every type of proxy.

Now you can pick what side you want to sit on. That is your own opinion, but please stop having this deluded sense that sharpie proxies are ok, but these are not. They are both just as harmful (assuming you are not using them to scam or pass them off as real).

Is everyone here now anti-Cocatrice and MWS? These are "life like proxies". The REAL issue is the passing of these proxies off as real card, not their existence. Now you can debate that if making 100% identical proxies your only goal could be passing them off as real, and that is another issue entirely. But they actual existence is not the issue. It's intent. Which btw is the LEGAL definition of copyright/fair use. I could write thousand word essays on this (and have) but it boils down to what is the intent. I would agree the sellers intent is to make money selling these to people who intend to pass them off as real, but persecuting the people who are saying they want to use them for cube/info is basically calling them a liar. You are saying what they are doing is wrong, only on the basis you assume they are going to pass them off as real.

That said. I am pro proxies for cube/playtesting, and absolutely against using them in any form of sanctioned play.

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It's actually worse IMO. I don't agree with playing proxies at events and would not think twice about calling someone out if I thought they had fake cards. I also think people who knowingly play proxies at sanctioned events should face a DCI suspension. Still at the very least those people are contributing to prize support and tournament attendance. The reason buying counterfeits is such a big deal is that it damages the community and financially supports those who only exist to make profits and give zero fucks whether or not their actions lead to the end of Magic and/or drive game stores which support the game out of business.

The entire point isn't that you are using proxies. You are supporting counterfeiters. The more you support them the more they are going to work on making Magic cards that look as real as possible which is terrible for the game. If they are forced to only sell cards to people who want to rip people off passing these fake cards as real or if every selfish asshole with a cube wants them the company that makes them still gets the same cut of the profits. If they can only sell one batch every so often to criminals who want to sell them as real it's not worth it for them to innovate and push for more realistic cards. If they sell 50 batches a year because people don't care it's going to crash the market which ruins the game. Every batch they make they are going to get better. I wouldn't really give 2 shits if you were printing proxies off at your house and they were not entering circulation.

Saying every proxy is created equal is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard for the reasons I just laid out. If you want to buy these proxies just admit to yourself you are a selfish asshole and know you are doing the wrong thing and do it anyways. Stop trying to justify it though like it is the right thing to do or like it doesn't have bigger consequences then just playing a game on Cockatrice or writing Black Lotus on a basic land in Sharpie.

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Originally Posted by theillest

EBay has copyright holders and general users police the listings. Copyright holders have special privileges and can end listings with the click of a button. They also have some automatic features which prevent certain keywords in titles. WotC/Hasbro can grab the reigns and KO the listings as they see fit. Or one can go on a crusade and report the listings as counterfeit.

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It's not like someone selling counterfeit cards is going to advertise this fact or make a listing for over 9000 copies of JTMS. He or she is probably going to use a stock picture or a photo of a genuine card, and mix in some listings for genuine cards as well, if only to appear to be a completely legit seller.

BTW, has anyone actually received their 'samples' from those HK crooks, and would perhaps be willing to take high-quality scans and list any ways to spot fake cards? Does a bold copyright line really mean it's a fake?

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Originally Posted by Mewens

I think the greatest part of these threads is the showcase of bad analogies... Pro tip: Counterfeits aren't like rooks in chess; you're thinking of a proxy, blah, blah, blah.

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Pro tip: learn to read.
I wrote that if I lose a rook in chess, I may throw away the set and buy new for 2 dollars. But if I once again lose Savannah, I'm 60 USD down. And then I worte I won't be playing a game whose pieces cost 60 USD each. Right there, right here:

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Lol. This forum is plagued by "I love that the high prices kick the scrubs out of my lsd..." and similar stuff.
It's a game. I played it in a pub and lost a Savannah. If I'd lost a rook in chess, I'd either thrown the set away and buy a new one or maybe I'd carve the missing rook of a stick, or whatever. Losing the Sav (yeah, tell me how I'm stupid, I love when ppl act like they ate all the wisdom in world and shit never happened to them, cause they're grandmaster Spot Object on Ground) cost me USD 60 or so, I can't tell the exact price and it doesn't even matter that much. This goes to all those "I got all, don't need to buy anything" and all those "you should have boguht them years ago", etc.; morale of the story is : (a) you may need new stuff even if you "have everything" and then it costs money, and (b) this game is no more meant to be played relaxed and in ease. The day I lost the Sav I thrown the EDH cards to binder, coz what's the point of dicking around the pub with a deck worthy 3000 USD and be constantly afraid that you lose/spill soda on something. Would you play marbles with golden marbles? Bah...
I miss the days when we were playing on the street under the lamp on a desk we've found on school garden and we didn't even counted our sixty when we were leaving, because even though they were the Good_Stuff.dec and the best in it's time (Necroknights, Zoo, Erhnam-and-Burn-'em, Erhnamgeddon, UW Control and such), because the most expensive cards were the Forces for 60 crowns and Erhnam Djinns for 90. And this was when one dollar was for 45 crowns.

I won't be playing children's pictorial game when the pictures cost two thousand crowns.

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Before "your support of fakes make small kitties die of hunger": no, I don't support fakes, I'm (partially) selling my Magical cards instead. Is it overreaction? Idk. The cards have two values for me, first as a game pieces and second is monetary, just like dontbiteithomes wrote:

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

My cards have two different kinds of value, a dollar value and value as a piece in a game. If one or the other was going down, I would probably keep. I mean if I thought the Legacy game was still going to be healthy moving forward but the value of my cards would go down I wouldn't sell. If I thought Legacy was going to taper off but the market wasn't going to come to a head at some point in the next few years I'd also keep as I'm quite fond of my cards. The way I see it though within the next 2-3 years there is going to be an influx of fakes and that is going to cause the quick demise of Legacy as a real format and make it hard as shit to sell cards (and MTG players overall seems overjoyed by this for some reason?). Why the fuck would I want to be left holding that bag? Also I've been here since before Legacy was a format back when we used to sling Drains and Workshops. Was I ever really here, lol who are you?

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Btw, I anticipated this counterfeit affair in one my very first posts quite some time ago:

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

I was always a big no-sayer when it comes to reprints, but the trend of last three or so years forced me to change my mind. I always thought that if someone can't afford to play MtG, so be it, and he should either quit or find a better job. But once the prices went ridiculously high and then straight through the roof, I changed my mind.

...

Because, and listen carefully: I won't continue with this magical cards thing. Not today, not tomorrow, not by the end of the year, but there will come a time when I'll stop to send letters, as your stamps are too expensive, just because some random dude sitting on his Mauritiuses means much more for you than I do. I'm fine with it, just that it is completely unnecessary. But then again, if your Sales Dpt. realized that it's better for you to do it like you do it, so be it.

One last note: If WotC doesn't do anything about the cards' prices, than I expect a flood of HQ forgeries in the years to come. Heck, maybe they already started to circulate, and we just din't realized that. That's the other reason why I'm more and more inclined to cash out. Cause I won't waste my money on scrap paper.

/rant

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Sadly, it happened sooner then expected... I hope WotC will do something about it. I think that the real supporter of RL is Hasbro and WotC just can't do anything, but maybe I'm wrong. No matter what, I also hope that this affair will wake up the sleeping beauties of either companies and they'll do something about it before it's too late.

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Originally Posted by DLifshitz

It's not like someone selling counterfeit cards is going to advertise this fact or make a listing for over 9000 copies of JTMS. He or she is probably going to use a stock picture or a photo of a genuine card, and mix in some listings for genuine cards as well, if only to appear to be a completely legit seller.

BTW, has anyone actually received their 'samples' from those HK crooks, and would perhaps be willing to take high-quality scans and list any ways to spot fake cards? Does a bold copyright line really mean it's a fake?

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The new batch should be finished in about 3 days. We'll have to wait and see how the new generation turns out, considering the Chinese are working on said issues.

Most likely, they still aren't going to pass the bend test.

Edit: Or the 19th, according to this video. He also claims that most of the cards go to Spain and Brazil. Take it as you want:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ql-q0INFZI#t=19

Pointing out how to spot fakes only make them better the next time.

Edit2: Here's the current 80 card list he's talking about:

http://imgur.com/5fooXr4

I'm really struggling to see how this is a bad thing for the game.

The bend test is such a farce, go ahead and take some shit Theros common and attempt a bend test.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

The bottom line of game stores which host events and the number and quality of events can't be separated. Hurting game stores which host events means less events which hurts players, period.
The reason buying counterfeits is such a big deal is that it damages the community and financially supports those who only exist to make profits and give zero fucks whether or not their actions lead to the end of Magic and/or drive game stores which support the game out of business.

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Still waiting for your evidence. Your claim of "hurting game stores" or damages community has no evidence. Your argument has no merit.

Producing indistinguishable counterfeit cards is the same as increasing the supply of cards that has high unit price. This would mean increasing attendance of Legacy tournament since more players would be able to access cards and the game stores would make more profit because the increase in attendance per competition.

Are you saying more players play in Legacy tournament furthermore higher attendance fees for game store owners is actually damaging the community? How exactly? You are making empty claims.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Pretty much everyone would agree that counterfeiting is wrong. I mean outside of the people here trying to justify it I don't think I've ever heard someone make a pro-counterfeit argument.

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Do they only agree to that because they've been told to? I mean basically everyone pirates music for instance. No one has a problem with saving an image they find online to their harddrive.

The whole concept of intellectual property is pretty morally murky actually.

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

The bend test is such a farce, go ahead and take some shit Theros common and attempt a bend test.

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Okay.

It works.

What am I supposed to be missing?

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Still waiting for your evidence. Your claim of "hurting game stores" or damages community has no evidence. Your argument has no merit.

Producing indistinguishable counterfeit cards is the same as increasing the supply of cards that has high unit price. This would mean increasing attendance of Legacy tournament since more players would be able to access cards and the game stores would make more profit because the increase in attendance per competition.

Are you saying more players play in Legacy tournament furthermore higher attendance fees for game store owners is actually damaging the community? How exactly? You are making empty claims.

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Stores would no longer sell any Magic cards. No boosters (outside of Draft), and certainly no singles. Their sole Magic revenue stream would be from tourney attendance money, and a large portion of that is fed back into the prize pool. I don't understand how the store would make more profit if they no longer are able to sell Magic cards.

Woah there, BDP.

I don't recall pointing you out specifically. I mean, if the shoe fits ... (Yeah, yeah, I know that's a metaphor, which is just an intellectual slut's analogy. My apologies, I'm a hypocrite in addition to my other charming qualities.)

Second, while I actually wasn't thinking of you, you're actually doing exactly what I accused people of doing. You're confusing the mechanics of a game piece with the counterfeit publishing of that piece. Your analogy sucks for two reasons: 1. It's part of an argument made in the context of a thread about counterfeiting, but leaves the actual conclusion unsaid (Are you entertaining the idea of counterfeits used as proxies? Or devaluing Magic cards through mass counterfeiting? Or something else entirely, but you were unaware that such nuance would be lost in a thread about counterfeiting?); and 2. I can't come up with a conclusion from your argument that isn't undermined by your analogy. I'll grant you, that might be a failure of my imagination. Still, I shouldn't have to imagine what you're saying, right? (To be fair, you're nowhere near the most egregious offender here.)

I'm actually sympathetic to your stated point, that the game costs so much damn money that it starts to become nerve-wracking / not worth the time to go out and play it. I'm just at a loss as to why you brought that up in a thread specifically about counterfeits.

And, yeah, I was poking the bear a little bit. (Sorry, can't help myself, apparently.) But god damn, this thread's full of a lot of self-importance and hot air.

I think I would actually enjoy Magic tournaments a lot more if Magic decks didn't represent huge monetary investments and thus 1) Create paranoia/stress about preventing theft that also stops me from bringing extra decks, a Cube, my EDH decks to Legacy tournaments, etc., and 2) Inevitable stress and tragedy after the fact as someone will inevitably get their shit stolen (sometimes being attacked or having their car broken into.)

Of course the downside to that would be the actual loss of money as the value of collections declined.

But, Magic cards are detrimentally expensive is the ultimate point here.

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Originally Posted by DLifshitz

It's not like someone selling counterfeit cards is going to advertise this fact or make a listing for over 9000 copies of JTMS. He or she is probably going to use a stock picture or a photo of a genuine card, and mix in some listings for genuine cards as well, if only to appear to be a completely legit seller.

BTW, has anyone actually received their 'samples' from those HK crooks, and would perhaps be willing to take high-quality scans and list any ways to spot fake cards? Does a bold copyright line really mean it's a fake?

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That's true, some counterfits are not listed as such. There are some which are touted as proxies. Those are the ones that may be policed. If you're mailed fake product and thought you were buying real cards, there are other ways deal with the seller.

A potential problem with pointing out flaws in fakes is it creates a guide for counterfit improvement. There are review videos coming out. No, there have been variances in printing.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Still waiting for your evidence. Your claim of "hurting game stores" or damages community has no evidence. Your argument has no merit.

Producing indistinguishable counterfeit cards is the same as increasing the supply of cards that has high unit price. This would mean increasing attendance of Legacy tournament since more players would be able to access cards and the game stores would make more profit because the increase in attendance per competition.

Are you saying more players play in Legacy tournament furthermore higher attendance fees for game store owners is actually damaging the community? How exactly? You are making empty claims.

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What exactly do you need evidence of.

Counterfeits hurt stores. I mean this seems like common sense. How does undercutting legitimate business with fake product not hurt the stores if you have another opinion?

If stores are making less money there will be less events. That's just a fact, events exist to draw people to the stores to buy and sell product. If events become less profitable there will be less events, I don't see how that could be debated. People keep saying the community could step in and host their own events but this is already the case and it's not happening on any real scale. Even if the community could offer up tournaments on par with SCG or BOM, or other retailers (which I find HIGHLY unlikely for many reasons) this wouldn't be a pro-counterfeiting argument as this could just as easily be accomplished without counterfeits.

Buying these cards financially supports counterfeiters and counterfeiters don't give two shits about what happens to Magic. That's just a fact again, that is not up for debate.

Hurting the stores and hurting the community are the same thing. When's the last time you played a tournament that wasn't hosted by a store that was worth talking about (an 8 man in your friend's basement doesn't count)? It's a very rare thing.

I heard there is a 'Light Test', where using a Black light on a authentic MTG card will make it the outer border glow- is that true? I also heard that the counterfeits out of N. Carolina (via China) did not pass this test too...

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Originally Posted by DLifshitz

BTW, has anyone actually received their 'samples' from those HK crooks, and would perhaps be willing to take high-quality scans and list any ways to spot fake cards? Does a bold copyright line really mean it's a fake?

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Originally Posted by metelhead

I heard there is a 'Light Test', where using a Black light on a authentic MTG card will make it the outer border glow- is that true? I also heard that the counterfeits out of N. Carolina (via China) did not pass this test too...

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Originally Posted by Barook

Pointing out how to spot fakes only make them better the next time.

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I really wish that people would realize this.

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Originally Posted by Bardu

Magic is a business. It exists to make money. And it has been plain to me that Magic has gotten greedy. They are not interested in making a great game, but in profit margins.

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Of course WotC exists to make money, why is that a problem? If Wizards makes a better product, they will make more profit margins. Would I rather them not care about their profits and not care about their product?

While high card prices on the secondary market do not directly help WotC, they do help local game stores, which in turn feed WotC. Yes, if prices are too high, then attendance will drop; however, destabilizing the secondary market entirely will break their whole business model.

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Originally Posted by Technics

Except many people are saying using them in cube or FOR PROXIES is just as bad. It's not. If I want to use my knock off pills to cure myself, i see no problem with that. If I want to use my knock off pills in the Public funded hospitel (sanctioned events) then that is absolutely an issue.

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Printing or making your own proxies, for your personal use, in non-sanctioned events is very different than printing and widely distributing proxies that are good enough to destabilize the entire MTG market. It doesn't matter if most people are good guys and perhaps only one in ten of these proxies actually makes it to tournament play or ends up getting sold as real. The possibility that moving forward, any card you buy or sell could be a forgery is a completely different scenario than you and your friends' home-made proxy cube. By buying these proxies, you are supporting this scenario.

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Originally Posted by Technics

Is everyone here now anti-Cocatrice and MWS? These are "life like proxies". The REAL issue is the passing of these proxies off as real card, not their existence. Now you can debate that if making 100% identical proxies your only goal could be passing them off as real, and that is another issue entirely. But they actual existence is not the issue. It's intent.

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The REAL issue is that it doesn't matter what percentage of people decide to scam and what percentage are good guys. Let's say only one in one hundred cards on the market are actually counterfeits, is that going to help the one guy that ends up buying it? Is that going to help negate the fear that you might be that one? If people are too afraid to buy cards off the secondary market then we have a problem. If you can't understand how crucial the secondary market is to MTG then I can't help you understand why this is bad.