Point taken. Though how can StP be justified in a CotV deck? Seems like a nonbo.Quote:
Originally Posted by iostream
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Point taken. Though how can StP be justified in a CotV deck? Seems like a nonbo.Quote:
Originally Posted by iostream
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One typically only sides in StP when Chalice comes out - for instance, versus fair creature decks like D+T or various BGx midrange strategies.Quote:
Originally Posted by TTX
Me too - but i also use it vs any BGx deck, even Delver stuff because they tend to have a higher cc curve and playset answer (decay) for chalice too. For me 3 Swords are fine IF you have other removal options. I like 2 Blessed Alliance, because it is not only to answer Marit or TNN (the merfolk needs an answer and it is not good to rely on copter), it is also good vs burn (maybe not common but every big tournament will have them - i faced two at my last 10 rounder) and with mana ramp you can often activate two modes. I also use it against grixis delver, chalice+swords aren't hot enough so i dont bring in swords here. But facing a delver that was cast before your chalice or a big zombie fish (big gofy, smasher etc.) can be hard - Blessed Alliance can shine here and will be better if the game goes on and you have more mana/options.Quote:
Originally Posted by iostream
I currently have 3 Swords, 2 Blessed Alliance (and 2 Pontiff - but that can be anything else and isnt common). From my experrience games can be swingy if your opponent managed to stabilze on the field and starts to counterattack (Delver/Angler/Gofy/BSkull etc.). Against Reanimator they typically search Grisel and if they cast it via Reanimate they can't draw 7-14 cards easily. I would also board B.Alliance here - it will also shine against other fatties (besides Grave Titan) if they can't entomb the best creature. I think if you don't like Blessed Alliance you need other stuff or go with Stoneforge + Equip (Swords with Protection) to have some outs against all the nasty creatures around.
I'm currently playing 4 StP, 1 Blessed Alliance, and 2 Holy Light as my SB removal right now.
I think Blessed Alliance can be really strong, but it's a bit clunky so I wouldn't bet your whole gameplan on it.
The Holy Lights are mainly there for Elves and Grixis/TNN-based strategies, but they can also be good against less popular decks like Goblins or TES/Belcher.
StP is still the best removal, despite the nonbo with Chalice.
Has anyone considered Cast Out in our removal suite? It's never truly "dead", and our deck can get to 4 rather easily.
I ask because I was playing it in a janky Astral Slide build this week and was very happy whenever I drew it. It is a clean answer to Jace and is especially great vs Sneak & Show. Instant speed means it can also snipe Batterskull flashed in by SFM. 4 mana also dodges abrupt decay. I might swap out some combination of removal/disenchant to test it out.
yes, Cast Out has been solid since its preview. Definitly playable in every control, high mana, deck.
It just doesn't get rid of Emrakul and TNN differently from Judgement
It can remove Emrakul. She only has protection from coloured spells, what targets from Cast Out is a white triggered ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
ftfyQuote:
Originally Posted by whitefaces
No, what I wrote was right. Cast Out enters the battlefield and has a triggered ability, which can target Emrakul.
You are correct. This is why I like Palace Jailer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
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Got my ass handed to me today at a 1k. My luck this week has been awful. I went 2-2 , 1-2 drop, AAAANNND 1-4. Bringing me to 75-26.... If this continues i'll make some changes . I think i'm gunna go up to 3 Karakas in the 75 as lands is been getting more popular and has been giving me fits.
Congrats to iostream for top 8ing the same 1k today.
Thanks! I actually managed to win my t8 match against Storm and then lost in t4 to a novel UWR Blood Moon control deck. I made some misplays in game 3, chief among which was cycling both of my Forsake the Worldlys too hastily and getting stranded with a crucial TKS in hand against a topdecked Blood Moon. Moon is not really backbreaking against us, but being down a card when you didn't have to be is always a big problem.
I ran back the same 75 as last time (link here)
I like most of the changes that I've made to the deck, as I've come to view the white cards as just patching certain strategic weakness of the Colorless Eldrazi shell. That is, the basic gameplan is the same as Colorless Eldrazi - deploy a few high-impact disruptive cards and then just go kill your opponent. The white cards are just there to provide additional options for disruption. Eldrazi Displacer, Thalia 1.0, and Thalia 2.0 (alongside Chalice and TKS) are all specific disruptive effects that can singlehandedly win the matchups in which they are at their best. Endless One and Walking Ballista (alongside Reality Smasher) are the best aggressive cards available; here the white splash doesn't help, so you just play what Colorless Eldrazi plays, except for the very expensive Eldrazi like Endbringer which cannot be cast in a manabase that has 0 Eye of Ugin. From my experience, Stoneforge Mystic and Phyrexian Revoker are neither disruptive enough nor aggressive enough to deserve slots.
Specific comments: I'm really high on Endless One, and I think one should probably nix the 4th Ballista for the 4th Endless One. I know Endless One doesn't look like much, but it fills out the curve perfectly and instantly stabilizes unfavorable boardstates provided your mana is working out at all. Key to the City was pretty crappy today, and I think it should just be the 3rd StP. I think Forsake the Worldly is better than Disenchant, the extra 1 mana just didn't matter. I wonder if I'm supposed to find space for the 4th Reality Smasher.
Nice finish iostream. I've been testing out endless ones also, but I was hesitant to post my list here since it's probably closer to white eldrazi.
I'm not liking Thalia stompy in the new meta tbh. Miracles was the reason to play chalice and smasher. Turn 1 chalice is still good, but things have sped up a considerable amount and getting to 5 mana doesn't always happen. Our elves matchup is bad, and grixis (which seems to be every other deck I play) is an even to unfavorable matchup depending if they run stifles.
I've also had a difficult time against lands recently, even though on. Paper the matchup seems heavily in our favor. That deck is just too OP sometimes...
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Endless One
4 Reality Smasher
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Eldrazi Mimic
2 Oblivion Sower
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
5 Plains
3 Eye of Ugin
Sideboard
2 All is Dust
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Forsake the Worldly
2 Rest in Peace
2 Warping Wail
3 Wasteland
The correct way to phrase it would have been that you don't like your version of Thalia Stompy in the new meta. If Miracles was the reason to play Smasher than maybe with Miracles gone a list with less of a focus on Smasher in specific and Eldrazi in general will be better for the new meta than the heavy Eldrazi list you have posted. Take for example the Elves matchup. Yes your list has a terrible matchup against Elves. But you run 0 Jitte and your sweepers cost 7 mana. Those are easy ways to improve the matchup. Playing stuff like Holy Light or Pontiff does not only improve the matchup against Elves but also against Grixis if you are facing Pyromancer or TNN.Quote:
Originally Posted by contra
I've played many different iterations of the deck and I maintain that Thalia stompy isn't great in the new meta. This is precisely why I'm trying new things. I believe that a more eldrazi-centric list is better against grixis - which is no doubt the new dtb. Case and point - look at the eldrazi stompy thread SB guide - they literally make no SB substitutions for the grixis matchup because it's so good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sisyphos
Pontiff is hard to cast w/ only 4 caverns 4 diamonds, and holy-light hits your revokers which you want to keep in vs elves. Dealing w/ TNN and swarm is tough for colorless & white which is another reason Thalia stompy isn't great in the current meta. I'd advocate a black splash, but that opens us up to mana disruption.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sisyphos
Jitte is good no doubt. But the list I suggested is running 14 sol lands that can help cast the eldrazi AiDs. Jitte requires 4, sometimes 5 mana, as well as a creature connecting which isn't likely to happen vs elves w/ all their bounce shenanigans. Elves is a hard matchup for Aggro decks trying to play fair. Our premier creature displacer does very little and is often too slow when we're being comboed out on T2. That matchup really comes down to us getting a chalice on 1, anther piece of disruption in THC or containment, and on top of that a decent clock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sisyphos
I disagree - Elves should be a good matchups - if - you pack the right cards and dont try to be a "colorless eldrazi version with a little white splash". Elves aren't attacked with more "stupid" Beaters, because they can easily outcombo you before you race them and block&stall you to oblivion if needed (and i am an elves player too - i knew how to grind out fair games). Key cards we can maindeck: Chalice, Thalia 2.0, C.Priest, Jitte, Revoker, Smasher and even uncommon stuff like A.Mindcensor and WWail.
Best card so far is Thalia 2.0, elves have only 2 forests, fetch-to cradle that enters tapped are really bad, even tapped Arbors disable the blocking&stall game with Q.Ranger to some degree. Hoof can't attack after NO and you disable the swarm theme with Thalia too. Chalice&C.Priest means more or less a hardlock in most cases (outs: hardcast hoof or sage) Smasher breaks most stalled fields etc.
Key is - no lockpiece will win a game alone (a reason why dnt more or less cant win the matchup, because dnt also lacks speed - and we can have speed/ramp) - so you need a critical amount of lockpieces, enough speed to deploy them fast enough and on top aggressiv beaters because every hate will stay only for time x, you can't durdle around with 2/2 bears (have i talked about the dnt vs elves match^^). Thalia Stompy have all the tools to have a good elves matchup. Tools like C.Priests will help vs a lot more decks/situations. Bonus point: Elves have no Decay main and your matchup greatly improves if you have hate like Priest/Mindcensor at main and win game 1.
Pontiff is also a no brainer vs elves, but the matchup is more than winable without this card.
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Grixis is another story, i can see that endless one - or better ballista - helps to gain more wins here.
On top of all that Thalia 2.0 stops a glimpse chain which really slows them down.
I know for a fact that Ballista is a high-impact card against Grixis from playtesting, and I'm hopeful that Ballista should do quite a lot against Elves. The Elves that matter the most are Wirewood Symbiote and Quirion Ranger; Ballista is a maindeckable way to turn them off with upside potential to pick off other things. I think it might do the job of Phyrexian Revoker in this matchup a little better than Revoker itself. I'll try to test this matchup a bit when I next find the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
I have been testing this for the last few weeks and tweaked it a little here and there.
We held a small tournament today (12 people) and I did rather well finishing in 2nd place.
I was the only X-0 at the end of the swiss. We cut to top 4 after 4 rounds.
We had a nice meta including Lands, Grixis Delver, 2 Sneak and Show decks , Reanimator, 4C Control, DnT, and others.
Round 1: BR Reanimator 2-1
I took game one on the play with Chalice as my opening play followed up by a Displacer riding it to victory. He had the nuts game two. Ended up locking him out game 3 as well with Displacer and Revoker
Round 2: Burn 2-0
On the draw both games. Game One went T1 Chalice on 1, T2 Chalice on 2, T3 Batterskull. Game Two I led with Thalia 1.0 and followed up Thought-Knot and Smasher.
Round 3: Janky Mud list with Thought-Knoughts, Forgemasters and Chalices in the board? 2-1
Game One I was beat by turn two Thought-Knot followed up with lots of things on the board. Game 2 I had a solid T2 Thought-Knot into Smasher to close it out quickly. Game 2 I mulled to 5 with garbage, but did not see a 4 getting any better. I Swords his T2 Forgemaster, to which he had no follow up. I was stuck on 3 lands but found all of the right lock pieces and filled the board up with small guys.
Round 4: Lands
The game one against lands is rough. Like really bad in my opinon. The boarded games are much better and I had quick threats followed up by answers on Games Two and Three. Thalia 2.0 is a house, and displacers is a great threat with open mana against their combo.
Semi-Finals: Storm 2-0
Lost the die roll and was Therapied out of my 2 Chalices in my opener. Still drew into all of my land drops to race and lock him out as his opener wasnt super great. Game Two my opening 7 was Mox Diamond, 2x Ancient Tomb, Thalia 1.0, Thorn, Surgical, Revoker. I honestly couldnt lose. He Therapied naming Chalice again, missed, and I quickly locked it up.
Finals: Played against the janky Mud list again 1-2
Game One I had the business with T2 TKS into T3 Smasher. Games Two he Revokered my Mox Diamond and I couldnt find a 4th mana before getting locked out. Game Three he had a T2 Thought-Knot with Lightning Greaves and I couldnt find white mana after stabilizing.
Overall I was very happy with the decks performance.
Here was the list I ran:
Creature (27)
2x Containment Priest
4x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thought-Knot Seer
2x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Phyrexian Revoker
Artifact (9)
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Mox Diamond
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
Land (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
3x Cavern of Souls
2x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Karakas
5x Plains
Sideboard (15)
3x Swords to Plowshares
1x Containment Priest
2x Disenchant
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Rest in Peace
2x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Blessed Alliance
2x Holy Light
I tested without the Stoneforges and used 2 Ballistas with a second Jitte. I did not enjoy them and never found them powerful or great in the long grinding games. I found the Stonforge package to be much better when behind or against the delver matchup, so I went back to it.
I cant wait to play this at Vegas
Congrats Kratos. I think the deck is very well positioned in the meta right now.
I played at SCG Louisville this weekend
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Mox Diamond
2 Smuggler's Copter
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Palace Jailer
1 Aven Mindcensor
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
3 Wasteland
4 Plains
1 Eiganjo Castle
// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Palace Jailer
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 4 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Armageddon
The deck was great, the players were great. I'm so glad I got to play this deck before a long MtG hiatus. It caught so many people off-guard, no one had seen it, or knew what to do.
It's really funny, in this deck, I always draw the right amount of sideboard cards. Pretty unusual for me. Copter is amazing.
Legacy Challenge on Saturday 4-0
2-0 vs. Elves (both Thalias, Smashers finish it quickly, Ethersworn Canonist and Containment Priest are brutal).
2-1 vs. Hightide (He FoW a game ending Smasher then combos out in game 1. Game 2 and 3, little Thalia and CotV are silver bullets.
2-0 vs. BUG Delver (A Copter crewed by a Revoker which neutered a DRS deals 18 damage game 1. Amazing. Both Thalias wreck this deck).
2-1 vs. RG Lands (He got turn 4 20/20 after double topdecking Ghost Quarters to handle my Karakas. Game 2 I maintain control with CotV = 0 and RiP. Both Thalias again are super powerful. Palace Jailer is great in this matchup if you can get it down. Just generates a ton of advantage. Game 3 I get 3 Chalices at 0, 1, and 2 alongside 2 Displacers and Karakas. His Marit Lage ain't never sticking. Smasher finishes quickly after timely Wastelands sac his Mazes.
Legacy Classic on Sunday 5-3
2-1 vs. Burn
Turn 1 on the play I lay little Thalia in the Cavern with a Mox. He plays a Mountain, and I know that I'm in luck, followed up with Copter then double Smasher.
Game 2 he has double Searing Blood to deal with my Thalia sisters and then ends it with PoP and FBlast. Game three on the play he can't keep up with TKS and Copter.
2-0 vs. Death and Taxes
Turn 1 on the play with CotV X=1. Followed by big Thalia, leads to scoop shortly. Game 2 he Wastelands me but then PtE my Revoker, nullifying the potential tempo gain. I follow it up with more TKS, Jitte, and Smasher.
1-2 vs. Colorless Eldrazi
Kept a very sloppy opener and suffer dearly. Game 2 I get an early Big Thalia and he can't keep up when paired with Displacer. Game 3 is like game 1, very sloppy keep on my part that gets shredded by TKS on top of Mimics and Reshapers for quick damage.
1-2 vs. Death and Taxes
Young kid, very competent, he made several play mistakes but it didn't matter as I was drawing poorly and mildly tilted from miskeeping the round prior. Good rumble. His Palace Jailer came down earlier than mine, and I could never get the monarch and drowned under card advantage.
0-2 vs. BUG True Name
Pretty poorly missplayed by holding a Mindcensor when I should have cast. He puts up long defenses with TNN. Game 2 he does the same by putting up a wall of defense then ultimates Jace.
2-1 vs. Grixis Delver
Big Thalia wrecks this deck. Copter is amazing against Delver, so is Displacer. Smasher finishes very quickly.
2-0 vs. Manaless Dredge
Both Thalia's stop this deck in it's tracks. I Revoke his Phantasmagorian and game 2 I draw a turn 6 RiP with both Thalia's in play and he scoops.
2-0 vs. Colorless Eldrazi
Palace Jailer crews Copter, Displacer blinks Jailer, Jailer eats opponent's creature, they take 6 damage increments while I draw 3 cards and discard 1 per turn. Big Thalia prevents him from ever accelerating.
Deck is strong. I'd say the weakest matchup is Death and Taxes. I practiced a lot in paper against my friend play Elves. He usually gets crushed by the deck, pre and post board.