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Manamorphose seems really interesting. I didn't really like having the 8 cantrips because they showed up in handfuls. Being able to change mana to what you need is something I like and then drawing the card is also nice. I will test. How has it been for you, yawg?
Bob was dropped because Draw 4s were better. This deck is very fast and having to wait to get cards is not good. The Draw 4 in the SB is to be wished for with B Wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
I don't understand what you are saying about Cabal Rituals. Most of the time you won't have thresh and they just add one mana. Not that great.
And you basically answered your own question about pyroclasm. The only plus to GS is it being a win con if the opponent is at low life. It can also be uncounterable, but so is Pyroclasm when we have Shusher. That is not the greatest arguement, but being able to remove multiple mages is what makes Pyroclasm better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
multiple cantrips haven't been that big of a problem for me so far, having two in your opening grip makes it a 3 kill at least most of the time.
on the other side i can imagine that manamorphose could ruin quite some starters which you wouldn't have to mull with a cantrip instead.
Ok Il believe you I understand that draw4s are faster. Minor nit pick, is it more correct to have 2 of the same draw 4 (IT) or 2 different draw 4 (MMage/extirpate).
Ill drop the rituals for ponders for a little while to test. Personaly I think that if you are spending a year and a half to sculpt hands vs something like landstill Your better off having +3s that dont discard your entire hand just in case you cant resolve a chant.
Considering the ETW hate, I generaly never want to ETW vs any deck after turn 2. The exception being threshold which can just die to this because they only run stifle daze and force. Without Tseize I dont think that ETW will have a tough time winning.
Ponder has done so much for TES, it has reduced its mulligan odds, it has reduced its Diminishing Returns failure odds, it has increased its access to Orim's Chant, it has increased its access to Lion's Eye Diamond, it has increased its access to Empty the Warrens, it has increased its access to Land, it has increased the number of shuffle effects and the list goes on.
Cabal Ritual is bad, 1B for BBB is not a good deal, and it's difficult for TES to reach Threshold. TES wants all of its acceleration to be either 0 or 1cc, so the next best piece of acceleration is either Elvish Spirit Guide or Tinder Wall.
Grape Shot vs Pyroclasm is debatable, both remove Gaddok Teeg, which is the real issue, while Pyroclasm removing double Meddling Mage is really overrated. A good Threshold player names Orim's Chant/Vexing Shusher first and Burning Wish/Empty the Warrens second, so as long as the Grape Shot is a deterrent from 2 Meddling Mages naming both win conditions and GGing you (and it is regardless, since it can either remove one of the Meddling Mages or be used as a win condition) it should be an "ok" replacement for Pyroclasm.
Considering it's real hard to use Grape Shot as a win condition, and there's no point in using Grape Shot as a win condition that I can see, there's no reason to use Grape Shot over Pyroclasm. If anything, you'd use Deathmark as more efficient Gaddok Teeg/Meddling Mage spot removal and be able to kill Tarmogoyf to boot. The only thing you'd be vulnerable to with Death Mark is Voidmage Prodigy, which shouldn't be a concern.
Edit: Right, 3 ETW is for Threshold metagames and for either turn 1 ETWs or hitting an ETW off of a Returns. Until decks start using 4 Engineered Explosives or Pyroclasms MD it should be viable against the Landstill 4 Deed/Stifle set ups.
You want 3 Draw 4s of the same name, I doubt any one is going to Meddling Mage a Draw 4, and being able to Infernal Tutor for additional copies of Draw 4s is a more practical consideration.
Well I wasnt considering grapeshot as a win condition, I was considering it more as a -X storm to tendrils you. It is essentialy for when you get to like 4 storm and have 8 mana up with B wish and tendrils in hand. Not often will it come up but theres times where I dont want to ETW for 18 I want to tendrils them because they can bolt me or something and that shuts thier fetches down. So it doubles as a finisher.
But honestly I think that theres a high chance you will remove problem men the turn you go off.
I will remember the ETW thing and take a couple with me. 3x ETW seems like its good basicaly just vs threshold. So I will remember that. Also I still have a serious issue on boarding I have no clue what comes out.
As long as you can find in game uses for Grape Shot, then you can justify cutting Pyroclasm for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
Multiple ETW is good against a lot of random stuff, while I mainly use them as anti-Threshold tech, it's second purpose is to cut down on the number of mulligans I have to take.
SBing is up in the air, for me I SB out Simian Spirit Guide a lot, and then I SB out the extra copies of Empty the Warrens (or Draw 4s). I'm strongly considering SBing out Brainstorms instead of Ponders when I need more space, but I'm really not certain which cantrip is better post board yet.
Interesting choice, I was also considering boarding out the silly ape(no storm for game 2), and cantrips (not ETW if its 3 of) I was also thinking that the cantrip slot should be half and half boarded out because its bad to see 2 brainstorm no shuffle, but 1 ponder 1 BS is great.Quote:
SBing is up in the air, for me I SB out Simian Spirit Guide a lot, and then I SB out the extra copies of Empty the Warrens (or Draw 4s). I'm strongly considering SBing out Brainstorms instead of Ponders when I need more space, but I'm really not certain which cantrip is better post board yet.
Most interesting card I think would be to board out 2 brainstorm 2 ponder 2 SSG and 1 Pedal 1 C mox or if just 7 keep the mox.
I don't play a sideboard Contract, so I sideboard out a Contract, 2 Ponder, 2 Chrome Mox, 2 SSG if I need to sideboard out seven cards. Never, ever sideboard out Brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
How is this side board (thank you by the way for the information on boarding out thats been my most difficult part of playing this deck)
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Pyroblast
1 ETW
1 Tendrils
1 IGGy
1 D returns
1 Grapeshot
1 Tranquility
1 Shattering spree
Glaring ommisions? nit picks? should it be -1 pyroblast +1 X?
-1 PyroblastQuote:
Originally Posted by undone
-1 Grapeshot
-1 Tranquility
+1 Cleanfall
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Pyroclasm
Also, Grapeshot sucks. It takes too much thinking, investment, and gambling to make it work. Face it, you're a Storm combo deck; you're going to gamble a majority of the time and Grapeshot makes it more likely for you to gamble and make more tough decisions that could make you screw up.
with keeping this in mind i would add more shattering sprees do your sb.Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
sth like -2 pyroblast +2 shattering spree at least.
Or just replace the Pyroblasts altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by zefhek
With out shuffle effects, I don't think SBing out Ponder over Brainstorm is a given.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Grape Shot has been good so far, I've managed to kill a Gaddok Teeg, do 3 points of damage to the opponent and then storm for 2 less into Tendrils of Agony a couple of times at least. I don't know if that justifies using it over Pyroclasm, but it doesn't seem that bad.
Cleanfall is a nitpick I actualy picked up a foil one just so that all my wish targets are foil (the only reason is that cleanfall is white and chant can be imprinted occasionaly correct?) the thoughtsieze inclusion is also fine. I just dont think have ever wanted to wish for it.
No, the reason is the insane synergy between Cleanfall and Desperate Ritual, for the obvious splice onto arcane tricks.Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
Just kidding obv :)
As a side not I noticed something that has been happening and personaly I think it devalues the power of the Draw 4s, The draw 4s were directly better with cabal rituals in the deck. The cabal rituals were also better with IGGy The truth is every time I draw a Ponder I think it should be a cabal ritual because adding another black +1 (potentialy late +3) ups your 1st turn warrents greatly. Has any one had REAL sucess going off first turn without C rit in the deck? I goldfished T1s and only went off about 10 times out of 50 on T1. Which is the best out VS thresh I think and since so few deck can do anything about it I would go for that if i can get it.
Yes, Cabal Ritual has little to no affect on turn 1 goldfishes, it's all in your head. If you want to replace the Draw 4s, then you know what I'd suggest replacing them with.Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
Cabal Ritual is an awful, awful card.
I dont agree that the card is awful (possibly in TES it might be) but I think that the deck needs another +1 but Cabal ritual may not be it. I hope they print something like.
r/b
Add r/b r/b to your mana pool
Which is actualy plausable because of the set they are in. Can you immagian that in TES (starts to drool) lol
But in absence of another broken ritual effect I think that your right and hand sculpting is more important
If it weren't for Ponder, I'd run 4 Tinder Wall; it's better filler than Cabal Ritual.Quote:
Originally Posted by undone