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Placing Terastodon/Woodfall Primus MD would be a meta call but for the most part it deserves a slot in the sideboard for decks that pack those types of cards. During post board games when you have GY hate to deal with as well, we are forced to play a little more conservatively. Which in turn gives them a chance to play those annoying cards that we also have to deal with.
If it was only that easy. On paper we might be tempted to think everything above 2 mana should be too slow against us and won't survive a 2nd turn kill or a 2nd turn Therapy package. As Shaboogs pointed out above, that's unfortunately wrong. Dredge is a very frail deck and won't always have access to the perfect goldfish hand. Also, post board, when cheap hate cards come in it will be a lot easier for our opponents to survive until turn 3-4 to drop their hate permanents.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
That's why Dredge requires to have a permanent removing DR target in the sb (Woodfall or Tera). Packing thise maindeck shouldn't be the best option, but in specific metagames it might be good.
I went 2-0-2 in a local tournament yesterday.
The deck performed very well.
1-1 against Zoo (time)
2-0 against Goyfsligh
2-0 against Mighty Quin
draw against GW VengevineMadness
http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV...lGRfiaiaiaN4vd
i have been testing this deck alot recently got a list compelled and it has been pretty consistant thoughts comments are all welcome and appreciated.
1 cephalid sage
1 FKZ
4 troll
3 thug
4 ichorid
4 narcomeoba
4 putrid imp
4 stinkweed
2 tireless tribe
4 breakthrough
4 careful study
4 cabal therapy
3 dread return
4 cephalid collesium
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
1 undiscovered paradise
1 tarnished citadel
I don't like sideboarding Dread Return-able creatures to handle my problems since most decks bring in cards to interact with my graveyard. I've really liked Nature's Claim for dealing with problem permanents, along with Chain of Vapor and good mulliganing.Quote:
Placing Terastodon/Woodfall Primus MD would be a meta call but for the most part it deserves a slot in the sideboard for decks that pack those types of cards. During post board games when you have GY hate to deal with as well, we are forced to play a little more conservatively. Which in turn gives them a chance to play those annoying cards that we also have to deal with.
Sage is crap.Quote:
Originally Posted by EternalDragon09
Tireless Tribe is a monster, when you are playing against Zoo/Goblins/Goyfsligh...
It is very mighty to play Tribe first. So plz play 4 of them.
So you played an outlet on turn one, dredged on turn two, and you don't have a Therapy in your hand or yard, nor a Coliseum, Breakthrough, or Study, and your opponent is a psychopath and has Confinement or Propaganda or Moat in his maindeck, and has it on turn three? This is a frequent occurence? Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
Did you miss Firestorm at all?Quote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
Actually, no. It's not a frequent occurence. That's why I said that in my opinion we should have a permanent destroyer in the SB, not MB. Against Stax, Enchantress and Lands we simply need it. Those three decks I just mentioned actually do frequently have Propaganda effects by turn 1 or 2 (possibly supported by turn 1 Chalice @1).Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
Against other decks with such permanents we will usually be fast enough pre board and have access to Chain of Vapor/Nature's Claim post board anyway, so we don't really need Tera here.
Honestly: Not.Quote:
Originally Posted by sa17dk
Even against Zoo and Sligh I didn't miss it once.
I was very surprised that this board also performed well.
Returning Chosen against Sligh in the second game for over 30 life is just too sweet.
I played following list 2 weeks ago and went 5:1 finishing 2nd out of 54 players.
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Terastodon
4 Bridge From Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
3 Tireless Tribe
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
//Sideboard
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation
The list was really solid and i was forced to mulligan not very often.
The games where against:
Round 1: The Gate 2:0
Round 2: UGB Tempo 2:1 or 2:0 can't remember
Round 3: Deadguy 2:0
Round 4: The Gate: 2:1
Round 5: Lands 0:2
Round 6: Infect 2:0
The split Iona/Terastodon performed very good for me. Each one won me a game
I boarded in the Firestorm's only against Infect but they where not relevant at all...I'm really not sure about this slot..
More than you would think. I regularly mulligan to poor hands with land, outlet, dredger, and often miss with the first blind Therapy. There are other problem permanents out there too, like Tabernacle and Chalice from lands, or Ghostly Prison from Stax, or Ensaring bridge from decks with enlightened tutor. Also, because Legacy is a format of fringe decks, so I would rather sacrifice the one MD slot to The Don then just be cold the first time an opponent drops a problem permanent.Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
I agree with not playing Firestorm in sideboards, I played Sickening Dreams(Oh boi, extended WAS fun at a time) as an replacement in the sb to get an impression of the possibilities of the card, but I seldom liked it, even if it would have been a "real" Firestorm.
I wanted to touch another point (again?)
I play the same list as CabalTherapy (that one he linked on his last threads), just -:1: Thug, +:1:Darkblast and Chain of Vapor in the sb instead of Natures Claim (simply because I have only a single copy of that Claim:laugh:).
Dredge is not my 1st/pet deck, but I always loved it and was thinking about playing it on the next Tourneys I could reach and here starts the problem. I havent played many games for quite a time with this deck and I would be pleased to hear what the boarding plans are. I used to play this deck rather good, but I really dont want to stick just to my intuition and experience.
Long talk, short story, what are the boarding plans against: MERFOLK (Mono-U)
Zoo (Aggro-Naya, or Big-Zoo)
VENGE-VIVAL (G/W and U/G-Madness, maybe BANT-Survival)
TES/ANT
GOBLINS
STAXXX/LANDS
(NO-)ELVES
UGb/Can - THRESH
I know that those explanations are not a piece of cake, but I would be very pleased if more experienced players could help me out, thank you
Congratz for a very good finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaRa
I also used to run a Tera main but over time I decided to go back to max consistency. The Tera was often handy to have, but it rarely won the games for me it was supposed to win for me. (See: You run it but lost against lands).
And on the Firestorm Topic. Well, this card is insanely good in this deck. But like some of you I have also noticed that whenever I Firestormed away my opponent's board, I could've just gone off and win the game with 10 Zombies and a Troll instead. Boarding in Firestorms usually requires me to board in (and out) like 6-8 cards, because I also want to be prepared for their hate. And I always wonder if I wouldn't be better off leaving Careful Studies in for the raw power after blowing up their hate, instead of being reactive with Firestorm.
Just got home from a legacy tourney that had a 66 player turnout. I finished 1st at the end of the swiss with a record of 5-1 using the list below. The top 8 decided to split the prize so no playoffs occured.
Mainboard:
//Creatures
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
//Spells
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
//Enchantments
4 Bridge from Below
//Lands
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
Sideboard:
3 Firestorm
3 Nature's Claim
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Darkblast
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Ray of Revelation
Here's a quick report of my matchups:
Round 1 vs NO Bant (2-0) - MVP: Iona
Round 2 vs UG Survival (0-2) - Notes: Cabal Therapy on Survival misses on both games. Mulled to oblivion on game 2 (Yes, it does happen)
Round 3 vs Faeries (2-1) - MVP: Iona Notes: Mulled to oblivion on game 2 (But it shouldn't happen too often!)
Round 4 vs High Tide (2-0) - MVP: Iona
Round 5 vs Dredge (2-0) - Notes: Won the die roll on game 1 and won on the 2nd turn (We both had ideal opening hands) and no hate found on game 2
Round 6 vs GW Survival (2-0) - Notes: Turn 2 Iona lock on game 1 and Cabal Therapy on Survival gets 3 copies on game 2!
As for Firestorm, I only boarded it against my match with UG Survival and I didn't see it during game 2. But I think it still deserves a slot in my 75 since it's much more easier to kill hate bears with it compared to the Darkblast tech. Then again, I just got my firestorms last month so I guess I should test it some more.
Congratz for the finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABOOGS
Your repeated MVP: Iona statement underlines what I feel about her at the moment. She just wins games. Even against Bant and Faeries, which many people claim that she doesn't do anything against, because they have more than one color. The statement 'A Troll would have got the job done as well' just isn't right in most occasions, at least in my expierience.
And Firestorm, I still don't know. It's so good, but the very fact that it mostly forces me to board in and out at least 7 cards is annoying...
Well, in my experience at that tourney at the very least, there were times (these were turns 2 to 4) when I didn't have enough bridges in my yard to reanimate a large GGT and 6 or more zombies, or I didn't have enough creatures and had to split one creature just to successfully flashback DR. Instead of just waiting for a couple more turns to build an army, I reanimated Iona and got 0-3 zombies in the process and it pretty much had the same effect of a large GGT and an army of zombies. I even won with Iona against dredge on game 1 because I named blue when I reanimated her so that he couldn't cast Breakthrough and start a race.
Hey SHABOOGS, how was Flame-Kin Zealot on the main? Was he actually relevant? We almost have the same MD, except I have a 3rd Citadel instead of FKZ. I might borrow use the same SB as you have since I am still working on that.
Also, why no Leyline of the Void on the side?
Agree. Run Witness instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
Why not?? If you think about it, at least in my case, creatures deals with other pernaments besides hate permanents: Tetastodon, Empyrial Archangel. Moreover they force your opo to active they hate (crypt, relic) prematurelly as well as flashback spells (Ancient grudge) it isn't so relevant if you loose your critter because it won't be the only respose to their hate and then you will go off more safely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman82
In that tournament, FKZ didn't show himself too often since I didn't have a Sphinx or Sage to dredge what's left of my library after dredging with a draw spell. I think I only reanimated him once or twice in that tournament. I had very crappy dredges in that tournament: Not enough bridges for a lethat zombie army or not enough creatures to flashback DR. Which is why Iona became my MVP that day. I've never been a fan of Leylines in the Dredge 75 simply because you can't use it if you draw into it or if it gets bounced. I'm not saying that Leyline is bad in the Dredge SB, it's just my personal preference to fight Leylines in the mirror.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Running only 3 ichorids could be he cause of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABOOGS
On the other hand i agree with the comment about leyline.
On the other other hand...i'm a bit sad that this thread has became into ledless dredge!
What about Coffin Purge as a means of gravehate?
People say this a lot and never give specific examples. I'm not sure if the comment about naming blue in the Dredge mirror is a troll or not, but if you're ever in that situation, it's pretty damn hard to beat Iona if you can't ever cast Dread Return.Quote:
Your repeated MVP: Iona statement underlines what I feel about her at the moment. She just wins games. Even against Bant and Faeries, which many people claim that she doesn't do anything against, because they have more than one color. The statement 'A Troll would have got the job done as well' just isn't right in most occasions, at least in my expierience.
My experience is that Sphinx of Lost Truths is superior to Cephalid Sage because I frequently want to discard three cards after reanimating Sphinx.
Coffin Purge costs mana. Paying mana for spells is very 2002.
Now that I think about it, you're absolutely correct. I should have named black instead of blue and then flashback-ed cabal therapy to get his breakthrough. Good thing he scooped after I played Iona. Live and learn, right? HeheQuote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
Blue: keep them of bounceing here and there drawing (slowing them down)Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABOOGS
black: keep them of Dread returning a Iona or worse.
Think either is ok, but I would pick blue. Though i dont play Iona and i play dredge only in vintage.
On the note of vintage dredge, what do you guys think about Leyline of Sanctity in the sb? It flat out stops relic of progenitus, tormod's crypt, bojuka bog (one of the only answers to this one), Wheel of Sun and Moon (a very hard sb card to beat as well).
It doesn't stop Leyline of the Void and it certainly has to be in your opener but I'm still holding some chain of vapors in my sb as the catch all. I pulled some ancient grudges from my sb for the sanctitys . The sb I've been playing around with looks like this:
4 Leyline of Sanctity (testing)
3 Leyline of the Void (mirror, survival, madness)
3 Chain of Vapor (catch all)
1 Ancestor's Chosen (self explanatory?)
1 Terastodon (random trouble permanents like moat)
2 Ancient Grudge (still necessary for trinisphere and chalice of the void)
1 Rey of Revelation (just in case)
I run LEDless and my build looks like the following: I'm considering dropping the 3 golgari thug for a 1 of darkblast since I am running 3 ichorid but I have also considered dropping FKZ since he is less good without Sphinx of Lost Truths and in place bringing back the 4th Ichorid. Thoughts? I apologize for not tagging my deck, I'm new to the site and still learning my way around.
Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Tarnished Citadel
Creatures
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
I keep seeing Leyline of Sanctity. What is it for exactly? Counter gravehate?
Leyline of Sanctity stops Relic's tap ability, but Relic's 1: nuke all yards ability does not target.
@(nameless one) Relic of progenitus and Tormod's crypt are the most popular forms of hate I see and both come in on turn 1 so the fastest way to stop them is a turn 0 leyline, theoretically. It also is very strong against combo decks like storm and belcher. There are quite a few other cards that being unable to be targeted would be a huge boon against as well but it may not be an important sb card in those matches.
Frogboy the relic point considered would you prefer ancient grudges, chain of vapors, or leyline of sancicty? a combo of all 3 perhaps? With dredge I don't generally want to side in more then 4-5 cards against any given match up or I find the deck becomes too watered down so ideally I'd like to only depend on one of those 3 options for any given match.
Chain of vapor
Pros:
A catch all
Probably the easiest mana cost to hit in the deck
Instant speed
Cons:
Only buys a turn against most cards which seems a lot better for the LED version then this one
Leyline of Sanctity
Pros:
Halts some cards that would not normally have an answer such as bojuka bog
Protects against more then just hate (oh hi storm combo and belcher)
Comes in for free*
Cons:
if bounced it is practically uncastable
does not fully stop relic and can't stop many sb hate cards like faerie macabre, extirpate, leyline of the void
Ancient Grudge:
Pros:
can be dredged
can hit problem cards outside of hate (chalice and trinisphere)
can potentially kill two problem cards before being used up
Cons:
only hits artifacts
Perhaps Nature's Claim deserves the spots of ancient grudge but I really like that I can dredge into my grudges and don't have to slow down my plan A to get them in hand if they aren't in my opener. Anyone have thoughts on this? I've been an avid dredge player for quite some time but have taken a break from legacy so perhaps some of my analysis and judgment of cards is behind the times, if so please enlighten me.
*if you aren't putting leyline in on turn 0 it probably is never seeing play.
I'd test 1 Empyrial archangel instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by chags
Hrm I suppose Empyrial Archangel seems pretty solid I'll test it.
I don't agree. It should always be black. Your opponent won't be able to play DR, but he will also not be able to cast Therapy. Thts again means that he has practically no ways to get his Bridges active, so he can't build up a board. If you can Therapy away Breakthrough or Study, always name Black.Quote:
Originally Posted by stasis
I thought it was interesting that in today's Ideas Unbound by Max McCall on StarCityGames.com, he says,
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l..._Beatdown.htmlQuote:
Dredge:
Can't win, but it's a well-known fact that Dredge sucks, and no one plays it, so no worries!
Leading up to this, he doesn't even mention Dredge in his matchup analysis of Tendrils.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l..._Turn_One.html
But 9 months ago, he said,
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...cy_Dredge.htmlQuote:
If you are not playing Dredge in Legacy, you are doing it unbelievably wrong.
What has changed? Has Survival's dominance (or some other recent metagame shift) really taken Dredge from great to horrible? Or does he just speak in ridiculous extremes?
sarcasm
noun - the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.
The problem with Dredge is that most people hate playing against it and hate playing it, so there's an actual gentleman's agreement not to bring Dredge out, even moreso than Storm Combo, which is no longer the subject of the agreement because people are whipping survival out all the time, which can never be the subject of a gentleman's agreement for reasons I don't understand. Maybe because it's green.
That said, I have the following hybrid LED/LEDless list:
Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Tarnished Citadel
Creatures
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Terastodon
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Deep Analysis
Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
2 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
The idea here is that you don't actually need FKZ in LED dredge if you are casting 2-3 therapies and bringing out a 12/12 troll t1, and that running out a countered 1-drop discard outlet is not as miserable if you can back it up with a 0-mana discard outlet. The SB is in flux, but contains
1 Tireless Tribe
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
3 Firestorm
3 Chain of Vapor
at the moment.
I understand what you're trying to do here but with only one deep analysis LED hardly seems like the smash it is in the LED version of dredge. I also don't really like the lack of FKZ AND Iona, I'd keep at least one of them. My feeling on MD fKZ is that when I tested dredge without reanimate targets I could still combo out into grave trolls but by turn 3 that did not always guarantee a win. Dredge has to win game one, that is just how it is for us, if we lose game one then we lose the match. FKZ makes it much more likely for us to take game one by allowing us to play more like a combo deck. At the very least Iona generally wins games more often than Terastodon's ability is useful imo.
I was wondering what is the best course of action on this scenario.
It is game 1, and you find yourself playing the mirror. Both of you have a discard outlet online. Opponent, however, already has some bridge from below on his graveyard as well as some dredgers. You on the other hand, does not have a single bridge form below, but you just dredged and managed to hit a cabal therapy. You are running the non-LED version, and it is unknown which version he is running, if that matters.
I came across this situation before, but I wanted to know what others would do in this case. Would you risk losing your permanent discard outlet in order to nail his bridge from below, and hope to come across more dredgers? Or would you pass the turn (could get ugly), and wait until you get your own bridge? He wont have a bridge if you flashback therapy, however this leaves his side with a discard outlet while your side has none.
Would the decision be any different if there's an Ichorid present in either graveyard? Or if he has more bridges instead? I rarely come across mirror, but wanted some insights on what would be the more recommended play.
Thanks.
Completely agree!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by chags
@Zappa : If I were you, I would first look at how many bridges my opponent have. If there is only 1 bridge in his GY, I will pass the turn.
If he has 2 or more bridges, I would look at my hand. Do I have BT or CS to go crazy next turn? If yes, I would first discard cards other than those 2 using your discard outlet, and then cabal therapy him naming BT.
He will lose 2 or more bridges and if you get lucky with cabal therapy, you can slow him down significantly.
The decision will off course be different if both already have ichorid in yard. But if you have to wait for another turn to wake ichorid up, I would still flashback cabal therapy and remove his bridge.
Going back in my "carrieer" with dredge y noticed that 1 of the things i pray for in the the opnening hand is a land. A rainbow if possible but a land (coliseum does the thing with LED). A rianbow to play imp, tribe or therapy turn 1 or a coliseum to go off with LED and DA.
Actually i'm running this list:
// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
3 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
// Creatures
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 [OD] Tireless Tribe
// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
1 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [10E] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [WWK] Terastodon
SB: 3 [MM] Unmask
The list is pretty solid but i want to improve a bit more my first 7s. I want to add just 1 Tarnished citadel to the build in exchange of a Dread return as a main target. It's slightly antisynergistic with unmask but it's the only card i'm not really (just a bit) to cut in exchange of a land.
And yes...Chosen conviced me more than empyrial.