What's your decklist like? Burn is never a matchup I'd take lightly, but it usually doesn't give me that much trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
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What's your decklist like? Burn is never a matchup I'd take lightly, but it usually doesn't give me that much trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
In my limited experience against burn (maybe someone else can back me up, or correct me), the key is to untap with a Batterskull. If you can do that, you have a good chance of winning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
The problem is that the fastest we can untap with a Batterskull is T2 SFM, somehow keep her alive (FoW?), T3 cheat out Batterskull, T4 untap. Burn can often kill you before then, and I don't know what other outs we have other than netting those particular cards.
It's definitely an adrenaline rush if you can make the comeback, though.
I played this list:
4 Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Stp
2 Path
4 Sfm
4 Snapcaster
2 Clique
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
3 Jace
1 Elspeth
4 Tundra
4 Flooded
4 Scalding
1 Arid mesa
2 Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Plains
4 Islands
1 Karakas
Sb:
4 Surgical
4 Spell pierce
2 Wrath
2 Path
2 Disenchant
1 Crucible
I played uw because I wanted a stable manabase. I was expecting alot of budget decks but apparently plenty of tier 1 turned up as well. At the last big event I was screwed by wastelands and blood moons. However the stable manabase paid off against the rug Delver decks I played against. The esper mu didn't seem that bad though g1 is very hard. It is very very hard to attack with an equipped creatures against burn. All our dudes die to a single bolt in response to equip. Some dedicated hate is required to have any chance against burn.
With that very solid list, I don't think burn should be a big problem. Thing is, they can't beat an active Batterskull. Any hand with a Mystic is probably good enough. If you play Mystic T3 or so, even without backup, if they have to use a burn spell on the Mystic, you will live longer, so hard-casting Batterskull T5 shouldn't be a problem. Once that is done, the game should be over. Standard things to consider would normally be just to save your Snares for Price of Progress, or play around it by fetching Basics whenever possible, don't get blown out by a timely Fireblast etc. It also depends on their build, but I don't think neither Hellspark Elemental nor Figure of Destiny do a lot against us - they just make our StoP better.
Postboard, things might get a little tougher if they have Smash to Smithereens. But again, a Mystic on T3 with either Pierce or Snare or Force backup should do it most of the time. You can even board in Disenchant to fight Sulfuric Vortex (which really p0wns us), or just save a Force/Pierce for it.
On top of that, at least in my experience, most burn Players are not very good. Maybe that's because good players tend to play more interactive / complex decks, don't know. But for instance, the plan to just ignore SFM and burn everything to the face can't realistically work (and I've seen that a lot lately).
With that list you can probably board out -2 Clique, -1 Elspeth, -1 Jace, -1 Jitte, -1 Wasteland and go +4 Pierce, +2 PtE. If you're feeling frisky, you can drop another Waste for a Surgical or Disenchant (but realistically they should never land Sulfuric Vortex through all the Pierces/FoW). With 4 Pierces and 8 swords effects, you should be able to handle anything they throw, not even counting Snapcaster.
Basically, your gameplan is Batterskull. I wouldn't tap out to play SFM unless I had FoW backup. Not necessarily for protecting the SFM, but mostly to make sure they don't do silly things like Bolt, Bolt, Fireblast or drop a Sulfuric Vortex. They shouldn't be able to kill you before t4/5 through all the countermagic and one swing with Batterskull usually ends the game.
Your backup plan is grinding them out by answering 4 or so of their heavy hitters (Goblin Guide, Hellspark, Vortex, Fireblast, Price) and then dropping a Jace and Fatesealing them out of the game. With no way to gain card advantage, a Spell Pierce on Fireblast or a Snapcaster for just about anything is GG on it's own. Start with Fateseal to get out of Bolt range, then switch to Brainstorm for a while to rebuild your counters, then (fate)seal the deal. ;)
REB is only a problem when it counters one of your counterspells because that probably means they are trying to force through lethal. You don't really care if they want to waste it to blow up Jace or a Snapcaster, etc. (unless you're swimming in counters and they are in topdeck mode)
I can see why Smash to Smithereens would be popular to a burn player, but I think the better choice for them is Shattering Spree, which is a bit harder for us to deal with (not snare-able, and they can replicate it to get around pierces, counters).Quote:
Originally Posted by TkDodo
That is, for instance, the artifact hate that Anthony Phaneuf was boarding in his burn deck in SCG: Memphis.
Beautiful list - resembles what I'd be running (except -1 Snare + 1 Geist).Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
Even with three Snares there are plenty of games when I have Snares sitting in my hand forever. What's your experience with the full playset?
Will you keep that Crucible in the SB? I kind of feel it's not necessary.
Edit: "Minor suggestion"
-2 Tarn
+1 Delta
+1 Rainforest
(due to Extirpate effects)
I haven't had much experience with Geist, from my limited testing, it's a very good card in the Mirror of when you are trying to push damage. It's main advantage is taking down walkers like Jace/Elspeth because they can't kill it/bounce it. However, it is also very vulnerable to a flashed Snapcaster (even worse into a flashed brainstorm). I find that it does improve the control MU, but I'd run lingering souls if I wanted to beat the control mirror.
Geist is bad against aggro and so-so against combo. I highly doubt I'd tap out against combo for a Geist, so you can see the problem there. As for a full set of Snare, it's not a must, 3 is fine as well. I haven't had problems with a full set yet, it has always been useful. Against Nimble Mongoose RUG, I board out all my snares because the only thing to counter is Goyf. Since I play a full set of path and swords after board, I didn't need any snares at all.
Crucible in the board is a flex slot, but I've found it very useful. I board it in against decks which have a LD plan (aggro loam/rug) and also the Control mirror. It's a very versatile card in which it not only saves you when you are behind (ie getting screwed with wastes), but also puts you ahead when the game state is about even. It's a must answer in the long game. I like it over, say another walker because the colourless 3cc is very easy on the curve. Usually you get screwed on coloured mana as stifles/wastes will target our coloured, so crucible has saved me plenty of times in that situation, then put me ahead with wastelock/ recurring factories.
Thanks for the suggestions, yes its more optimal to spread out the fetches, however the Tarns are a leftover from my pre-snapcaster UWR/Lavamancer days and I can't be assed replacing the foil fetches. :P If I get screwed my needle/surgical, I'll probably slap myself like Saito.
I don't think Geist is that great in the Mirror. Whenever I see Geist, I do a mental fistpump because that means less Cliques. Geist is easily stopped with a Snapcaster/Factory/Clique and the Clique/Snapcaster always makes it a 2-for-1. Clique really shines in clearing the way for a Jace/Elspeth, while Geist does nothing but beats.
I agree with Clique > Geist in the MirrorQuote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Clique is better than Geist in every matchup.
Anyone tried flusterstorm in the board? I'm thinking of running a 2/2 split of fluster and pierce. Though pierce is more flexible, I only board in 2 max against control because 2 many might be blanks late. My 3rd and 4th pierce come in mainly against combo. In that situation, fluster is superior due to its near uncounterability. Thoughts?
I've had Flusterstorm in the board, as there is an unfortunate amount of storm combo in my local meta. I've never had occasion to use it. The problem is two-fold: Orrim's Chant and Silence. By the time your opponent is casting Tendrils, they've probably gotten one of those through. You usually have to stop them earlier, and for that Spell Pierce is often just as good (or just as ineffectual). I've started boarding Canonist instead. I know it's not a lock, but my hope is that between Canonist, and counters, I can slow them down enough that I can get their life down far enough that Ad Nauseum fizzles.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
I agree canonist is much better if solely against storm. However the reason I prefer fluster is because it stops other combo decks like reanimator. Since the printing of graveborn, reanimator has become pretty popular and I prefer my sb cards to be as versatile as possible.
Also chant effects are a pain, yes. In this regard fluster is only slightly better than pierce because if you force the initial chant and they still attempt to go off while playing around pierce (generally they'll go off late in the game because we have no clock and by then, will have a ton of mana), flusterstorm is pretty much a hard counter.
Also flusterstorm is pretty much gg against high tide. High tide into spiral? Fluster will stop that no matter how many counters he has.
I tried Flusterstorm in my UWr board and am pretty pleased with it overall. I play 3 Reb effects, 2 Pierce and 2 Flusterstorm. I think this is somewhat optimal for almost every matchup. Sure for storm flusterstorm is nuts, especially with snapcaster. I found it useful against RUG too.
I disagree with Geist<Clique in the Mirror, both cost 3 mana, are pitchable to force and are legendary.
Geist as a clock has 6 power and clique 3.
Sure clique has flying, but dies to almost everything, removal, jitte or a flipped delver. Maverick has also some nasty flying creatures and you can count the new esperblade token, spellstuter sprites, bitterblossom, squadron hawks, etc.
Yeah, if you control the board, every creature can bring down an opponent.
Geist can be flashed down? Sure, but you can also smash clique with clique or snapcaster with sword/bolt, all common 3 mana options. Remember, if a Geist can attack, his player has also mana open, to protect it for incoming blockers. But even blocked, a Geist pushes 4 damage to your opponent or a walker. If you count equipment, and you should, because this deck is known as "Stoneblade", a Geist is a much harder threat compared to Clique, if both are equiped. Against Maverick a Geist with Sword of Feast and Famine is my prefered win option, especially if the play the common punishing Fire Version.
If you count combohate, yeah clique is the right option, if you can survive 3 turns.
I play UWr, with Geist and Bolts MD and i crushed an UWr Stoneblade with clique at my last tournament very easy 2:0.
Don't get me wrong. Geist is a fine card, but clique supports your gameplan (which should be sticking a planeswalker and not creatures). Clique is more versatile too. Sure if you run a list with bolts and Stp you can remove clique easy, but you will lose a planeswalker or equipment in the process.
I play both in my lists and i'm pretty pleased with this split. On the draw in the mirror i board out geist and leave it in if i'm on the play.
Canonist is not only effective against storm combo, but also slows down Combo Elves, Enchantress, High Tide, and Hive Mind considerably.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
I'm not seeing Flusterstorm's strength against Reanimator versus Spell Pierce. They don't tend to cast a lot of spells in a turn do they? Is it the ineffectiveness of FoW against it?
Also, Flusterstorm won't hit Animate Dead. I'd vote Spell Pierce every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by matunos
To beat Reanimator, you want to hit the Discard outlets and not the Reanimation effects. You should be concentrating on countering entomb/careful study/show and tell instead of the Reanimation spells. They run less discard outlets than reanimation spells + Entomb gets them THE RIGHT DUDE while careful study digs in addition to pitching.
You want to have the T1 hard counter against entomb/careful. I usually lose when I can't answer a T1 Entomb/Careful backed by Daze and or Force of Will. Flusterstorm make sures that shit stays countered and thats what I like about it. I'm not saying Flusterstorm is better than Pierce. I believe Pierce is the better card, however I am saying Flusterstorm is better than Pierce 3 and 4 because you will unlikely bring in more than 2 Pierces against anything thats not combo.
Therefore, if Pierce 3/4 are specifically against combo, shouldn't we be running the stronger combo hoser? That's what I plan to play right now, a 2/2 split of Pierce and Fluster in the board.
Interesting train of thoughtQuote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
Don't know if that's the general best line of play accepted by the public, but my thinking goes more along the lines of letting them resolve their Discard outlets / Entombs, because they all put them down an actual card. I think you can't stop getting things in their yard forever, in the end, they might just discard a fattie end of turn with a hand full of reanimation spells and counters while you are out of everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
Especially since we are talking about postboard play, when you have 3 Surgicals + Snapcasters available, I have no problem letting their discard outlet resolve, as long as they never get anything relevant into play through my counters and Surgicals. And if they go for the show and tell plan, their entombs / careful studys are useless anyway and probably just counter-baits.
If you really have 4 sb-slots for an already good (or at least not super-bad) matchup, good for you. I'd rather have more outs against Maverick / Dredge / Tempo - in other words, the real problematic matchups for U/W Stoneblade before bothering with things like Flusterstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
That man has got a point too.Quote:
Originally Posted by TkDodo
Speaking of SBs - what's the current agreed upon core?
2 Wrath (+1)
2 Path (+1)
2 Disenchant
3 Surgical Ex. (+1)
2 Pierce (+1/2)
1 EE
Has anyone tried running Gut Shot?
Tempo-less removal against Delvers and many Maverick targets, live with SCM on 1R, and the UWr lists can pay for it if needed. Seems like a decent option for playing towards earlier, stabler, stabilization (where they hopefully run out of dudes before you're out of removal).
Looks right for an UW shell.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
My current UWr Sideboard is:
2 Disenchant
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Wrath of God
I have 3 Bolts MD (7 Pointremoval + Snapcaster) and i included 1 Academy Ruins, to support MD Equipment and Sideboard Metamorph, Crypt, Explosives. I also like, to splitt Hate to Spell and Permanent solutions, to weaken my opponent defense manoeuver. Metamorph is a flex slot, but he can handle legendary creatures like thrun and emrakul very well, so i give it a try. My meta has only a few combo decks, so i save some sideboard slots (i also play stifle maindeck:wink: )
@gutshot: Nice idea, it hits most legacy utility creatures. But its very weak vs walker and players, you also cant hit flipped delvers, stoneforge(to avoid batterskull), manlands, small equiped guys or at some level ooze and knight(if you have luck or removed the graveyard) I prefer the old Lightning Bolt. If you want to hit utility creatures, Forked Bolt can also be an option, sure it is slow sorcery speed, but if you are on the draw or an opponent drops noble+mother, its a solid answer, compared to -4 Life+Snapcaster. It also dodges spell snares, compared to fire/ice.
I played a handfull of postboard games against Maverick, and it's not the wonder I was hoping for, but wasn't bad. Hierarch/Bird/Arbor aren't the most thrilling targets to trade life and a card for, but opening hands with Gut Shot + Swords on the play were wonderful.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
Vs. Bolt: the tempo-free play is the ticket, when it can connect. It could play like Mental Misstep as removal against some of their dudes, even if you draw it later (unless it's Mother). Also, when I've tried bolt or lavamancer before, I've been unhappy with the mana-base strain of fetching Volcanic early, as it can leave you unstable or even cut off white. When blasts don't come in, then the only red spell in the deck doesn't require red, and EE@3 can be set up as necessary.
Pyroblast is strictly better, because it can target any spell instead of just blue ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
Thus, you should run Pyroblast or a Split of these when you're in fear of getting it extracted.
On the Sideboard:
I think you're mostly right on the core ...
2 - 3 Wrath Of God (Right now, 1 in the main deck should also be considered, to have "life" draws in the mid and late game, when maverick has flooded the board.
3 - 4 Blasts (If you're including the red splash)
2 Disenchant or Krosan Grip or Engineered Explosives (Not sold on the Disenchant-solution, who has gone through excessive testings with them against maverick and can tell me about it?)
2 - 4 Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm (Imo, the split is probably right, giving you more flexibility and strength versus combo)
3 - 4 Surgical Extractions (Such a wonderful sideboard card, you can do all kinds of shenanigans with them)
2 - 4 Path To Exile (Imo, there needs to be additional removal against maverick in the main deck, like 1-2 path or lightning bolt, because otherwise you will have use all of your swords on mothers ...)
I currently play:
1 Wrath of God (1Main)
3 REB/Pyroblast split
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will (3 Main)
1 Elspeth
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Disenchant
With 1 Wrath, 2 EE and 1 Academy Ruins in the Main. Haven't tested it though.
Thoughts?
I don't understand why Pyroblast's subtle targeting differences makes it 'strictly better'. We don't run any Magical Hack effects, and Black Vice is banned, so how is that useful to us?
In fact it's worse, due to opposing Misdirections being able to redirect it to non-blue spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by matunos
BUT Therapy/Meddling Mage etc. are more likely to name REB over Pyroblast imo.
So I guess they're about even.
Anyway, splitting them 1/2 makes sense, to minimize Extirpate impacts.
Kill phantasmal image.Quote:
Originally Posted by matunos
Both have extreme corner case advantages. Reb also forces hive mind to target hive mind.
The real reason to prefer pyroblast is the black border.
I believe REB is available in a somewhat more impressive black border. ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by anwei
For reference :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by anwei
http://www.eternal-central.com/wp-co...240284772.jpeg
If you have Beta REBs, you obviously play those. Otherwise, the percentages are so similar that it doesn't matter.
------------------------------
The only MU I'm concerned with right now is Maverick. The first player to figure out a 75 that beats them consistently is going to win a lot of tournaments.
Turning in a board-control deck is probably a good strategy. I'm talking in the vein of Landstill or BUG (although boarding into BUG is basically impossible). I'd be willing to board up to 10 cards for the matchup, although 8 is where I'd put the soft ceiling.
Now that they're adopting Thalia, cmc=4 cards are becoming less and less attractive. The only cmc=3 cards that I like are either black or have no lasting effect if they blow it up with Pridemage.
I also wonder if boarding into a combo could be good. Painter-Grindstone is interesting. Your goal then changes to trying to get them in a position where they can't break the combo at instant speed. It's probably bad, but worth testing in post-board games.
Why not board into some Cursed Totems?
I have had success with Damping Matrix and Peacekeeper. Choke is still a pain in the ass so I leave in FOW postboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
Maverick doesn't tend to run artifacts other than Jitte do they? Why shut your own game down with Damping Matrix when you can shut theirs down with Cursed Totem for 1 less mana, and still equip your own stuff?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bignasty197
If you're expecting any Tendrils, High Tide, or Belcher then sure, Flusterstorm instead of Spell Pierce 3 and 4 seems great. I'm on the same page as not being sold 3 and 4 are needed though since we have a better combo matchup than most already and plenty to bring in if you include Surgical Extraction.
In terms of what to hit against Reanimator, it can be tough... they can just as easily be holding a hand full of discard outlets as they are a hand full of reanimation spells. Careful Study is a good target to hit since it draws them cards and lets them discard. Entomb is tougher to hit because they'll play it at your EoT, usually early in the game. Countering it can easily leave you tapped out (or open to Daze) on their turn. They'll eventually get dudes in the yard, hopefully you've stalled them enough by then to have more answers.
I don't like Gutshot. The only situation I can think of where it'd be better than PtE/Swords is if you tap out, pass the turn, they vial in a Mother of Runes, and proceed to untap with it. However, since about every deck (aside from Death and Taxes) has dropped Vial, I don't see this being an issue. You'll almost always have a turn to untap then nuke Mom before she wakes up.
Pyroblast is generally better just because it can hit Phantasmal Image. Although, I can't think of a deck that would board Images against us. Possibly some cute mirror tech? The Hive Mind advantage to REB seems less relevant since their copy can't target your copy, so likely the Hivemind is getting destroyed either way. Not to mention that you can just as easily have out a Clique/Snapcaster/Jace as not, making it moot whether or not they must target a Blue permanent. Of course, if you have the Beta REBs then knock yourself out. If someone is playing Images, just counter it with REB and move on with life. lol
Maverick is still a tough nut to crack... I've wondered before if Aven Mindcensor would be worth trying, but that's doubtful. I think really, more than any deck tech, you just have to be flexible when playing against them. They have so many avenues of attack that it's hard to work a coherent gameplan against them. I still feel like their best line of attack against us is mana-denial. T1 Noble into T2 Wasteland + Thalia is crippling. When they follow it up with a Choke a few turns later, that's game.
I used to run 2 O-Rings, but I've since moved to 2 Disenchant and 1 O-Ring and I don't even board O-Ring in this MU anymore. It's too hard to play around Thalia + Wasteland when you're Choked out. I don't want to worry about Pridemage also.
I go back and forth between boarding out SFM and not. I can't fit SFM and Spell Snare both post-board and I tend to think that equipment is super unreliable in this MU anyways. Having an easy counter to Library, SFM, Ooze, Jitte, that one faerie, and Thalia seems good (even if it feels dumb to be holding one when they play KotR or Choke).
My current boarding plan is:
-4 SFM, -2 equipment, -1 Jace, -1 Snare
+3 PtE, +2 WoG, +2 Disenchant, +1 EE
(I've also moved to running two White fetches and a 2nd Plains over the Factories, making my only colorless lands 3 Wastelands. So far, so good. I've never liked greedy mana bases.)
Cursed Totem seems interesting and definitely worth some testing. It shuts down nearly everything in their deck. It's also nice against Elves. Finding it might be problem, so you'd have to be willing to devote enough SB slots to it as I don't think Enlightened Tutor avails us too much. My major concern is that drawing into it mid-late game when they already have a big KotR/Ooze isn't going to be as helpful as just topdecking some removal. Perhaps it's a card that we'd be willing to mull for though. Landing Cursed Totem before T4 seems like a win against Maverick. I wish it came in foil... :(
Matrix is for more than just the Maverick MU. Shuts down Aether Vial, Cranial Plating, Sensei's Divining Top, the entire MUD deck, Grindstone and other stuff. I never leave in SFM and equipment vs Maverick so it isn't an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by matunos
Note that Dampening Matrix can't shut down Hierarchs, Birds, or Dryad Arbor, but Cursed Totem can.