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I would consider Dig Through Time in a list that dumped the double-black spells for Stifle or Thoughtseize and thus didn't need to play multiple Bayous. True-Name Nemesis would be a natural inclusion in such a list, but at this point we're moving towards BUG midrange rather than Team America. Still interesting to think about though.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmutant
Scavenging Ooze might be worth keeping in mind as the format moves forwards. The Ooze is already fantastic against opposing Deathrites and, although mana-intensive, can keep opponents off of Treasure Cruise for the entire game. It also dodges concern about the size of our Tarmogoyfs if both players are Delving away their graveyards. Goyf almost always counts a creature in a graveyard, so Ooze should always be at least a 3/3. Ooze is obviously worse in multiples than Goyf unless both players are Delving and the Goyfs are small.
I'm not saying we should replace Goyf, but I'll be keeping Ooze in mind as I playtest to see how it compares to Goyf.
I've experimented with cutting some number of Goyf to fit in a couple GSZ and an Ooze. Not outside the realm of possibility.
Rebuilt from the ground up:
Permanents: 12
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
Spells: 28
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
1 Dimir Charm
4 Force of Will
3 Treasure Cruise
Lands: 20
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
Sideboard
2 Disfigure
2 Envelop
2 Spell Pierce
3 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bitterblossom
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Main points of interest:
3 Goyf/1 Scooze: It's a simple swap for now. We think Scooze will be good in the format because of Delve, and it gets bigger than a Goyf quick enough. Too many might get awkward.
4 Seize/0 Hymn: Seize is good at getting Dredge online, whilst stripping Cruises out of people's hands. Hymn would be fine, as it's another card advantage engine, but it's slow, and we want to be casting Spells fast.
4 Decay: The lack of Hymns means we can go bigger on removal. Decay is the best, so that's settled.
1 Dimir Charm: I wanted Envelop and Disfigure in the main. This will have to do. I was against it, but we can give anything a shot.
3 Treasure Cruise: The new toy. I would like to draw three, yes please.
1 Bayou/2 Trop: Mixed to make Scooze better.
0 additional threats: I usually have Library, Lili, TNN, or something in the main. Cruise is taking all of these slots.
2 Disfigure/2 Envelop: The relevant modes of Dimir Charm. Envelop is good against the Cruise decks we'll be seeing pop up, but also against combo decks and Miracles.
BB, Library, and Jace: Miracles. Because it's the best deck in the format, so I want my plan to be unbeatable. I have up to a 14 card sideboard for this.
Lili: Helps beat the mirror a little, but is also a good 'bomb' against combo. A resolved and protected Lili is beaten only by flooding out into an Ad Nauseam or PiF. I like those odds.
Ooze doesn't compare to Goyf. The raw power level just isn't there and it's bad in multiples. As a 2-of maybe to supplement Deathrite Shaman's GY control and for when RiP has made Goyf into a lamb.Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryTroll
Is Thoughtseize better than Stifle in that type of configuration?Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
Is it better than Spell Pierce x2 and Counterspell x2?
It just seems so terribly weak against Miracles and opposing Delver lists. Basically it seems weak against anything running Brainstorm.
I remain unconvinced that Miracles is the best deck in the format, but that's a separate issue. If you're particularly concerned with beating it, then I'd definitely be running a second Needle in the board, probably over the third Golgari Charm. Also, not a fan of Envelop over Pierce or Negate. The ability to hit non-sorcery spells is relevant against not only Miracles, but also Sneak, Painter, Reanimator, Storm, Blade decks, Burn, and in the mirror. I prefer Negate because it's a hard counter, but if you want a more tempo-y play, then I can see a rationale for Pierce. Envelop just doesn't do enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
I tried Envelop in the past too and was not that happy with it because it's a most of the time a really special SB card and not flexible enough for my taste. Every time I played it I Immediatley replaced it after the turney with additional Pierces.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
The Negate idea seems interesting. I find that it's often hard to soft-counter Treasure Cruise because it's usually played later in the game (when people have 3+ lands) for 1 mana. It's also good against Miracles. But 2 mana might be too costly for this deck to keep up.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I ran it at my local last week and it was great every time I drew it. I'm considering Mana Leak because it's more flexible, but I think I'm happier with Negate just being a hard counter. My instincts are generally to be more controlling, so my style is usually to have a creature or two and just hold mana up to protect them with Negate. I've also been on Thoughtseize since switching to Cruise, which also helps with holding up 1U. I run Negate mostly for the Miracles and Show and Tell matchups, but they've been doing work in a lot of other places, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by iostream
What about Duress? The card never disappoints.Quote:
Originally Posted by iostream
Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk 2
With only a single Bayou and DRS, I'd rather just play Counterspell. Christ, Mana Leak is better than Negate. Because who the fuck is playing around Mana Leak anyway?
Counterspell is good in this meta. 2x not 4x. Countering just about anything from the midgame on can be a win butQuote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
countering TC and NO is a must.
I'm less concerned with people deliberately playing around Leak than I am with them incidentally playing around Leak. Not that Leak isn't worth testing (I'm testing it now), but decks like Elves and 12post can easily have a pile of mana left over after casting a key spell like NO or Show and Tell, rendering Leak effectively dead. This is also relevant against Miracles (games fo long and they are good at making land drops) and Show and Tell decks (due to Sol lands) in thr midgame.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
In BUG midrange/control, I prefer Counterspell for a number of reasons. But in Delver, having to hold up UU essentially locks you out of any BB haymakers like Liliana and Hymn and forces you to hold UU up in many situations where holding up UB or UG would be better, especially if you've already shown Dimir Charm to your opponent.
I was really skeptical about Envelop also. I put 2 in the SB because the meta has changed a lot with the delve spells. It has real targets in many of the top tier lists at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manipulato
Miracles - Terminus, Entreat the Angels, Council's Judgement and Ponder, although I'd probably never counter Ponder unless they were in top deck mode without a top on the board. Envelop is great vs Miracles assuming you are not boarding out Spell Pierce to get it in. I board out a solo Spell Snare (catches only Counterbalance and Rest in Peace, neither of which will likely kill a list featuring Abrupt Decay) and Toxic Deluge and the Envelops are all gravy from there.
Elves - Glimpse of Nature, Green Sun's Zenith, Natural Order. Spell Pierce out because after turn 2 it will not be worth anything at all and the way Elves plays spells it frequently isn't worth anything on turn 2.
BUG Delver - Whichever discard they are featuring, Treasure Cruise, Ponder when they are in top deck mode. Sometimes in, sometimes not. If they're not playing 3+ Treasure Cruise I just leave it out.
UR Delver - Treasure Cruise, Chain Lightning, Ponder in topdeck mode, probably not Gitaxian Probe although I could see countering it mid-game or if you were holding an early hand that had strengths and weaknesses you couldn't afford to reveal. Always in against UR Delver, must stop Treasure Cruise because 1-for-1 their assets are inferior to ours. Stopping Chain Lightning and Forked Bolt from killing our DRS and Delver (and sometimes us) is a plus.
Sneak and Show - Show and Tell, Gitaxian Probe, Pyroclasm, Ponder if they're in topdeck mode. Have not played this matchup yet with Envelop. Good targets in it but I'm not sure how the mix will work with BEB and Hydroblasts already tuning in for Sneak Attack, Blood Moon and Through the Breach.
D&T - No targets.
Esperblade - Targets but not worth the tune. Too many killer assets are permanents.
Burn - Lots of targets, not sure if it's worth the tune or not. I beat Burn 2-0 last week and I don't think I put the Envelops in. I put in the 3 blue blasts and kept the Spell Pierces and Spell Snare in.
Reanimator - Envelop is like Reanimator's personal demon. Play it alongside Spell Pierce and you'll have them out-countered on the cheap.
Before Treasure Cruise this would have been a "it's very good against Elves and Miracles" post. Treasure Cruise really changed things.
Went 3-0 tonight at the shop. Beat Enchantress 2-1, UR Delver 2-1 and then Miracles 2-1. Last week was MBC 2-0, Miracles 0-1, Burn 2-0 so I'm feeling pretty salty about the list at the moment.
Only changes this week were -1 Ensnaring Bridge main for +1 Toxic Deluge and -1 Psionic Blast main for +1 Dimir Charm. Really liked the Dimir Charm. It's there for good. The sideboard was -1 Toxic Deluge (to main) and +1 Pernicious Deed, -1 Marsh Casualties and +1 Darkblast. The Darkblast won me the match against UR Delver, killing a Delver of Secrets, 2 Young Pyromancers and a Grim Lavamancer in game 3 and turning it into a walkover. Thinking about going 2 Darkblasts in the SB at this point although not sure what will come out.
The Miracles player, a different player than the guy who beat me 1-0 last week was a bit upset at the end of the match because he thought I was meta-gaming against Miracles with the Envelops and the Dimir Charm. He's a really nice guy so I was a bit surprised that he was bothered by the match. I laid out my list for him including the SB and detailed exactly what I was meta-gaming against and I think he was ok at that point.
For the record I'm meta-gaming against Treasure Cruise, UR Delver, BUG Control and Miracles in that order. I figure if I can have a positive matchup against that card and those 3 lists I'm probably going to be ok overall. Elves is a problem but I think it is manageable in the 75 I have now if not a positive matchup. The only list that really worries me at the moment is UR Delver and I still haven't decided if the list is good enough against them.
Edit: whoops, missed a big change. Took out the Creeping Tarpit and put in a Soldevi Excavations for it. The idea was to speed up Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time a little and it worked. Sacing an untapped island puts it in the GY and then tapping the Soldevi Excavations for :1::u: and delving the island gives you 3 mana instead of 2 on that turn. A byproduct of the change was the game 2 win over Miracles when I scryed my way to the Abrupt Decay I needed to get rid of Rest In Peace and beat him with a Goyf and DRS. Scrying every turn at end of turn is really strong in the control mirror. I was putting everything I saw that would not remove RiP on the bottom and looking at a minimum of 2 cards a turn trying to find the 4 Abrupt Decays and 2 Krosan Grips.
You know that it's basically impossible to hold up UU without also holding up basically any other combination in this deck, right? Sea, Sea, Bayou, which would be a rare Fetch in this version, would leave me on cast Seize (or maybe Goyf if I have a fourth Land) hold up UU, BB, UB. If DRS is in the mis you have literally whatever you need all of the time. Holding up UU is not hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I get what you mean about Mana Leak, but it might still be worthwhile. T1 DRS -> Seize Leak, or Waste Leak, or whatever. Seems pretty nuts. You can even Daze -> Leak -> Waste. That's be a very good opener. It's not supposed to be good late, it's supposed to be good when it matters. I have actually talked myself into Counterspell again.
With DRS out, it's almost always correct to leave Bayou up and you usually want to use your other mana to either disrupt your opponent, draw more cards, or play threats. In your example (or even with Sea, Trop, Bayou), I couldn't play out a Delver, Ponder, or Brainstorm and leave up UU. I could play a Deathrite or a Thoughtseize, but every other line would take me off of Counterspell.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
As for Leak, I'm currently less concerned with being able to counter Creatures than I am with being able to cover my bases against noncreature spells like Planeswalkers and combo pieces, so the card going long matters.
Unless you're against Reanimator or Dredge, I'd rather have Sea up with DRS. I have Ux for Spellcasting, and can burn them if need be. You rarely have either the opportunity, or the need to Exile a Creature. My fetches in a list that looked something like this would be very skewed toward the Spells I'm expecting to cast:
4 Deathrite
4 Delver
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Seize
4 Decay
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Force
2 Cruise
T1 Sea -> Delver is good and fine, but I'm very likely to get a Trop very shortly after. Black becomes much more of a supporting role in this kind of a deck, and you will only ever really need one per turn. You're much more of a Tropical Delver deck with Black than a Sea Delver with Green.
You can't.Quote:
Originally Posted by LEH
You could if they said, "Target player [does X]" -- e.g. Ancestral Recall. Unfortunately these spells can't be redirected. The only way to 'steal' those sort of cards is via something like Commandeer.
Yeah, I just found that out myself and deleted original post. It was exiting there for a minute though.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Misdirection is getting used a lot in this meta to change the targets of counters and removal. One important side effect of this is that Blue Elemental Blast is now better than Hydroblast. The Hydroblast can get misdirected to just about anything, including the Misdirection targeting it. The BEB stays on target unless the opponent has another red permanent or chooses to cast another red spell that BEB can legitimately target.
However, you can cast Pyro/Hydro with no 'real' targets at the end of a turn, untap and Delve it away if you really need to.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
This is true, however if I have either of those spells tuned in they are likely among the most valuable in the list at the moment. I'm unlikely to throw them away to delve for a spell in that situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
I guess it's a meta call. I have a lot of UR Delver, BUG Control and Miracles in my meta at the moment and I'm seeing Misdirection every other match or so.
It's such a strange meta developing in front of us. A lot of blue control, blue aggro control, red aggro and Elves. It was really nice seeing Enchantress on Friday because it's too easy to get stretched out conforming to a local meta and then wind up blindsided by something at a big event.
Enchantress is not something I'd be surprised to see more of now, and it's not nearly as easy a matchup as it looks at first glance. So good to get practice in.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Enchantress was my first pet deck in Legacy. I used to play it religiously, but eventually got tired of how linear most of the games were. It also become next-to-unplayable once herp-derp combo cards like Emrakul got printed. Alas.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I'd actually be kind of happy to see this deck finally get a chance to shine. This is a deck that can run maindeck Rest in Peace (plus the Helm Combo), and has plenty of ways to shut down decks that want to win via the attack phase. Additionally, Blood Moon, Choke, and other SB problems... Luckily, BUG probably has the easiest time of all Delver decks with beating it. Abrupt Decay + Golgari Charm, counterspells, other removal, etc.
The problem with Enchantress is that it's a combo deck that can easily be dismantled. If you counter/destroy the first Enchantment effect and they don't have a backup, it's basically reduced to a pile that's playing a bunch of do-nothing spells like Wild Growth. Not only that, but pretty much *every* deck at least has access to sideboard cards that can cripple it. I think this deck probably needs to dip into some splash colors to deal with the current metagame, but the problem with doing that is it would dilute the number of Enchantment effects. You'd think WotC would have thrown Enchantress a few more bones in a supposed-Enchantment-themed block (Theros). I think what they really need to do is print a pseudo-functional reprint of Argothian Enchantress, except have it be an Enchantment Creature (and maybe to justify the increased power, make it cost WG instead of 1G). Or perhaps even better, a pseudo-functional reprint *without* shroud that only costs G.
/off-topic aside
As for BUG Delver, I still feel like Hymn to Tourach is a powerful card to be running. While I do think that TC has fundamentally changed how a lot of Delver vs. Delver matchups play out, you still have to consider all the other decks that are still being run in the format. Hymn is still a beating against (most forms of) combo, midrange, aggro, and even control. Thoughtseize is a mixed bag, sometimes better, often times way worse (e.g. against Burn). I will grant that Hymn paradoxically fuels TC and TC itself makes it a lot easier to recover, but in those situations you can just sideboard the card out.
I've been playing around with running 1-2 Dredge cards in the main deck. Darkblast and Life from the Loam are both pretty fantastic on their own against the right matchup, and of course their Dredge ability helps to fuel multiple TC's. To make room for LftL, I've been testing cutting the 4th Wasteland and just running 19 lands -- this way you still have the same number of colored sources, and in the event of facing a deck soft to Wasteland you have the potential of locking them out.
Briefly off topic - Enchantress is a pet deck of mine as well and I've been lending it out at locals to folks who don't have Legacy decks. It's a deck that can maindeck a Blood Moon (I'm actually running 1 main, 1 board) at essentially no cost to itself. BUG definitely has the easiest time of all the Delver decks against it, but the matchup is far from a walk for BUG Delver. Favorable? Sure. Auto win? Far from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
On topic - I'm doing a lot of testing of somewhat strange BUG shells right now as well, and while I haven't tried Darkblast, I've actually been tinkering with a Landstill like shell that runs Loam. Do you mind posting a list? This thread may not be the best to discuss it though, since mine doesn't run Delver. As for Hymn vs. Thoughtseize, I think that the biggest reasons for Thoughtseize are that it requires less mana overall (and so allows you to play more spells in a turn) and less black mana (so gives you more fetch flexibility). The other half of costing less is that it allows us to hold up harder counters, whose stock is rising both because of us wanting to counter opposing Cruises and because there's a lot of value in being able to stop topdecked haymakers like Jace, Rest in Peace, or Blood Moon. I normally wouldn't consider RiP a haymaker, but against DRS, Goyf, Cruise.dec it gets pretty ugly even if you have Decay for it as soon as it lands. While reactive spells are a little weaker with Cruise than proactive ones, my testing suggests that this is a tradeoff worth making right now.
I've been having quite a bit of success with this deck on cockatrice
18 lands
3 underground seas
3 tropical island
3 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta
2 verdant catacombs
4 wastelands
creatures 12
4 tarmogoyf
4 deathrite shaman
4 delver
sorcery/instant 30
4 brainstorm
4 daze
4 ponder
3 treasure cruise
3 force of will
4 stifle
2 spell pierce
1 dimir charm
1 disfigure
4 abrupt decay
sideboard
1 force of will
2 disfigure
2 golgari charm
1 spell pierce
1 notion thief
1 vendilion clique
1 envelop
1 zur's weirding
1 pithing needle
1 null rod
1 nihil spellbomb
1 sylvan library
1 blue elemental blast
How has Stifle been working out for you?
I've been on Thoughtseize recently, taking opposing Treasure Cruises has been pretty good at ensuring I resolve the first one.
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Treasure Cruise
3 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Liliana of the Veil
SB
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Spell Pierce
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
True-Name is there to have more non-graveyard dependant threats. I've been really liking them as creatures 13-14. Not running Hymn lessens the strain on the manabase, I'd be running 3 Trop/4 Usea or go down to 18 lands if I cut the Liliana for something else.
The sideboard is a bit looser than I would like, but having access to 6 additional removal spells has really helped creature matchups. I'd like to find room for some cards to improve my Miracles and Sneak and Show matchup, probably cutting a Disfigure and a piece of GY hate.
Darkblast is a no-brainer in the 75 at this point and there's a really good argument for it in the main list. It's hard to squeeze into my 60 at the moment but I'm looking for ways.
Any reasons for that? It's pretty back against the mirror, the partial mirror - both BUG X and X Delver - UW Control, Lands, Storm, and Show and Tell. It's good against Elves and DnT. Anything I'm missing?
Hei Guys
Yesterday in a 21 Player Tournament: 4:1 Close..
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Treasure Cruise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Brainstorm
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 3 Disfigure
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
Match ups:
1:2 Burn. Was very very Close.
2:0 Jund
2:1 12 Post
2:1 Infect Mono G^^
2:1 MuD Post
Treasure cruise is so insane in this Deck.;)
greets Dingo
I played a very very similar list on Saturday (Only changes +1 Lili -1 Fetch) and had the most badest turney with this deck by far :frown: (Nic Fit sucks :mad:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
My MU`s were
UR Delver (1:2) Game 1 I won easily and G2+3 my manabase fucked me and BS did not found a 2nd land, Shaman got bolted...
Punishing Nic Fit (0:2) (He crushed me hard, resolving Cruise helped not that much, Stalker would have won me 1 game...)
BW Deadguy (1:2) (RIP and a unanswered Bob lost me the game, 2 Cruise were stranded in my hand, charm handled RIP but immediatly after that he hymned away my 2 Cruises)
Dark Maverick (1:2) (I disfigured + wasted + Hymned away 4 manasources in total on T3 but he drew like a god, in the other game a Knight equipped with SoFI + Batterskull was to much for me after not finding a lili or decay)
All in all those games were very very close & sometimes my manabase fucked me hard (especially against UR Delver & Maverick) or my opponents had just a better draw than me, so I´m considering putting back the 20th land. Sometimes i missed Stalker as a late game big fattie trump card which closes the game (Maybe it was just because my MU´s were very removal intensive), even if Cruise was good.
Now I play 2 Cruise + 1 Stalker instead of 3 cruise.
I played 2 Charm & 2 Deluge in the SB and Deluge was not very impressive at all, most of the time in the past I could not cast it because of a Thalia on the board or I did not want to cast it because I controled the board with my goodies anyway or I had to play it and blow up 1-2 guys of my own, so I will reduce the numer to 1 and up the Disfigure count to 3.
I think Charm is more important in the future against white decks because now with Cruise everywhere everybody will hate us with RIP (happened twice against me this Saturday!), destroying this asshole enchantment will be important.
Yeah, here are the lists it's really good against right now:Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
UR Delver - Delver of Secrets, Young Pyromancer, elemental tokens, Grim Lavamancer.
BUG Delver - Delver of Secrets, Deathrite Shaman (use during upkeep, dredge it out and use again because DRS is the killer creature in this meta, same utility against a flipped delver), Goyf wars, Dark Confidant in some builds.
Elves - Every elf in Elfball except for Nettling Sentinel and if you stabilize can keep Nettling Sentinel off the board also, Wirewood Simbiote, etc.
Maverick - Mom, Thalia, DRS (must keep DRS down at all costs) assorted other critters depending on which variant they're playing.
UG Infect - Everything has 1 toughness in this list and it's a tool against them although you need more to beat them consistently.
Jund - DRS, Dark Confidant, Goyf wars.
D&T - Half the creatures in their list including all of the locking ones.
Rock - DRS, Dark Confidant, Goyf wars, various hatebears depending on the variant they are playing.
BUG Control - DRS, Goyf wars, Baleful Strix, etc.
Various other creatures it can manage that can be hard to deal with otherwise: Meddling Mage, Vendilion Clique (can Brainstorm to get it out of your GY and kill Clique when it lands, saving other important cards in the process and making your opponent very sad), Snapcaster Mage, Ichorid, etc.
It's a really useful removal spell in this meta given the creatures in play. It's very close to main list status in a list that wants to delve.
On the topic of discard vs extra counters: the top of your opponent's library is what kills you in this meta. There's too much card draw out there and the best of it relies on having cards in the GY. The discard elements are like a prep for the point where you're both low on cards and the initial exchanges are over and the first person to successfully resolve their plan will win. Stopping the opponent from doing that is really critical in this meta. Being able to do it yourself is really critical also. Discard helps on one side of that equation, counters help on both.
@manipulato
happens men. I don't like 19 lands in a deck that need land's and bb for a hymn or to cast a tarmo or a lili
I never had problems with the manabase. Well i'm now 37:3 since i play this list^^
i think 3 is the right number for cruise in a bug list. We always want one and draw a second.
If you have alot midrange decks like jund or mavericks or same for Ur Delver, you shoud play disfigure ;))
3-4 pieces.
golgari charm is always nice. toxic deluge is ok but i dont like it in a deck like this. It's 3 mana and your own creatures dies too.
Krosan Grip is nice to for a 5th decay against RIP and Batterskull.
Darkblastwooooo.
For the purposes of all of these; it's only good against a pre-flipped Delver, unless you want to skip your Draw Step to get your Spell Countered.
UR Delver: I assume most lists are going to become Delver/Guide/Swiftspear, at least for the time being. That's everything on 2-toughness, and then see above. You can NEVER cast it on a Swiftspear.
BUG Delver: As above with both Delver and Shaman, but the presence of Shaman means you can't even do the trick, except on the turn it comes down. Then it's a "BB: Force of Will" exclusively for Shaman. Your comments about Goyf wars, whilst relevant, are probably not ideal. I'd rather be doing - erm - anything else. I'll just Golgari Charm for Regen and exile something with a Shaman if it gets REALLY shaky.
BUG Midrange: As previous. Darkblasting cards that have "draw a card" attached to them is a surefire way to lose a game, deathtouch or not. Wait for an opportune Golgari Charm.
Jund: Again; boarding in Dredge cards against a Deathrite deck, in a game entirely about card advantage seems... Loose.
So; good against Elves, Infect, and DnT. The Maverick deck is arguable, as it's good against Thalia and MoR, but bad against Deathrite Shaman, and everything else in the deck you care about. We're not fast enough to be able to double Darkblast a Stoneforge, because they will just find another or cast their Batterskull through any Dazes. We will have to Force it, as we have no main-deck answers to a Batterskull. Now you've just 4-1'd.
It's just not that great. I can see it in the board for DnT and Elves, then splash damage against other decks, but maining it seems just awful. We should just play Disfigure.
I'm going to replace the singleton Toxic Deluge main with the Darkblast and see how it does. It shores up my weakest matches at the moment, which I see as UR Delver and Elves, and the sweeper almost never came online fast enough game one without additional help from the sideboard.
I'm not going to main list Disfigure. One and done is not the kind of card advantage that works in this meta with such a narrow card.
Yeah it was the 1st time playing the deck with 19 lands :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
My first 3 turney with the classic oldschool list went always 4:1 or better but I´m always working on new versions...I played 3 cruise and it was absolutley ok, exept for the scenario when RIP resolved...I think I will up the Charm count to 3 and the Disfigure count also, I need fast removal especially against D&T, Elves, etc...Deluge was always very slow & clumpy...Darkblast is also a interesting card...
I think I should not be that scared after that result, it can happen...
This is the configuration I've settled on:
20 lands (4 sea, 2 trop, 1 bayou, 4 waste, 9 fetch)
4/4/4 delver / DRS / goyf
4/4/4 ponder / bstorm/ TC
4/4 FoW / Daze
4/2/2 Decay / Liliana / Dimir Charm
Dimir Charm is fantastic right now against most Tier 1 decks. Hits most of the spells you want to hit, kills lots of creatures you want to kill, and at worst provides some filter or can be pitched to FoW. It's hardly ever dead and rarely gets sided out. Until Treasure Cruise gets banned, I'm not so sure Discard is what we want to be running.
Why TA instead of URx? BUG is still fantastic thanks to the absurdity of DRS, Abrupt Decay, and brute strength of Goyf. Liliana is also a versatile card that can help carry you into the midgame and take over. I haven't had issues resolving multiple TC's or having them interfere with DRS/Goyf. Only Rest in Peace is a problem, and even that is hardly game-over.
As for my current sideboard:
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dread of Night*
2 Spell Pierce
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction**
1 Jace, TMS
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle***
1 Maelstrom Pulse
*DnT is enough of a problem that I play 1 copy of this to deal with that deck. If you don't see it much, Darkblast or some other removal spell can replace Dread of Night. Toxic Deluge doesn't work so well in TA vs how it functions in BUG Cascade.
** Reanimator, Punishing Fire, etc.. And also useful against some combo decks. But not a necessity and this slot could easily go towards something else.
*** Not entirely sold on P. Needle. But it's been pretty helpful against Miracles and other decks. This could probably be something else.
This is kind of where I've been since I realized UR Delver was going to go tier 1 with Treasure Cruise and Monastery Swiftspear.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I'm running 19 colored mana sources and no wastes. I'm running 10 counters and no discard. I'm playing WaterBUG against the meta at the moment and it seems to be working.
Agree completely with the Dimir Charm assessment. It's a great card in this meta. I'm torn between running 1 and 2 main list because of the 2cc cost. I really want a 1cc removal spell to handle the first Elf and a Delver of Secrets the turn it lands. Darkblast is the other card I'm considering and I don't know which is better. I already have 28 blue spells for Force of Will so that's not a consideration.
Edit: Darkblast is a winner against D&T also. It hits Mom the turn she lands, Thalia, Flickerwisp, Phyrexian Revoker, Aven Mindcensor and Spirit of the Labyrinth if they're running that as a hate bear. It dredges back out into your hand as a control device against them and makes your Treasure Cruises easy to cast. I wish I had a way to get it into the main list and SB once each but I just don't have room right now. It's fighting with Toxic Deluge, Pernicious Deed and Ensnaring Bridge for spots in the SB and it doesn't sweep or control the way they do.