Ok, I can understand that viewpoint, what would you cut instead and why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelfire
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Ok, I can understand that viewpoint, what would you cut instead and why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelfire
For a build like:Quote:
Originally Posted by yankeedave
// Lands
1 [B] Taiga
// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
Nothing needs to be cut. If you have to sideboard, you can board out ESG or Tinder Walls (depending on the situation).
I spoke poorly there. I didn't mean cut from the deck period, but what would you take out from the maindeck whilst SBing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelfire
Having read your response, if you do cut the ESG, do you think that you will leave yourself low on Initial Mana Sources (IMS) to start yourself off. I understand that the ESG's are the weakest, but I also feel that you will have to mulligan more if you start taking IMS's out of the deck. I am also very shy of taking out mana accelerants such as Tinder Walls for that same reason, you want to generate as much mana as possible and the Tinder Walls act as a great filter for the ESG's.
Surely, by dropping either of these, instead of the draw, you are weakening your starting hands, as if you can't generate mana, Manamorphose is dead. Street Wraith is obviously another thing all together, but is also weak against very aggressive decks such as Zoo, Merfolk and Burn.
If you're seriously cutting ESG over Manamorphose post-board, I think you've lost your credibility at this point. Manamorphose is completely unnecessary and Dark Ritual and Bayou have been added and cut from this deck so many times it's not even funny, you guys just need to re-read the thread and step re-inventing the wheel.
The problem with playing x8 cycling cards is that it is significantly harder to know when to mulligan. When you start with x2 Wraith and x1 Manamorphose in hand, you COULD draw good shit off the top of your library. Its also possible that you might not. The fact is you can't really know either way. At first glance 'virtually' changing the deck to 52 cards seems to increase the consistency. I think you've lost sight of the fact that this consistency is entirely virtual. Mulligans are an excellent way to increase consistency and your mulligans are going to be far worse when you cannot be sure whether or not they are keepable hands. Mulliganing is a crucial part of Belcher's strategy and distorting it leads you to rely more on luck than you think. If you want to actually try to increase mulligan consistency, try Serum Powder. Its a much better shot than running 8 cyclers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelfire
Also, ESG and SSG are Daze protection. Cutting them instead of a cycle cards like MM seems counterintuitive when you want extra mana against control to protect you against Daze.
When I'm running the deck, I count Street Wraith as about .8 of a mana, given the ratio of mana sources (41) to kill cards (11) and doing the simple EV calculation. Obviously, LEDs and seething songs and extra rites bumped this a bit, but in general I would never keep a hand that countained cantrips, but no initial mana source or kill condition.
I recently played Belcher in a small tourney, and I was sideboarding out Street Wraiths every game, and putting in Swarms or Chewers. If I needed both, I went to manamorphose next. I had no qualms with that whatsoever, especially with not running black for Rituals.
Ingot Chewer v. Shattering Spree?
You can wish for Shattering Spree and hit multiple annoying artifacts, but Chewer hits Chalice for 1 and destroys Bridge from Below.
You can always run a split, but I prefer Chewer.
Am I wrong in thinking that you can shattering spree away a chalice at one?
Yes you definatlly can spree a chalice as it doesnt hit the replicate copies.
However, you have to pay more mana to replicate it while Chewer won't cost you more than 1 if you are just dealing with Chalice @ 1.
I am really looking into building this deck, the one land version. I really like belcher. How is Blood Moon, and what would you bring it in against?
I was wondering how to sideboard against control?
My meta consists of Elves, Gobbos, Merfolk, CBTop, and AdNas.
Thanks!
I tend to bring it in against decks with shaky mana bases such as Bant and Team America and sometimes even Reanimator if I think they aren't expecting it. Looking at your meta tho, I wouldn't bother, I would be tempted to run Red Blasts, as they will work well against Merfolk, CB and ANT!
Ok I built the deck, and it is extremely fun to play. I love it. So I run the 1 land version (Dont have Bayou yet)...and wanted to know which version is better and why?Quote:
Originally Posted by yankeedave
Also, I run Xantid Swarm in the Board, should it be blasts and why?
I can understand blasts, but Xantid Swarms seem amazing against control. If it resolves and doesn' die that is. Blasts require you to have 1 extra mana in play or in your hand, which isn't too hard...
Idk, wouldn't mind hearing some thoughts. Thanks!
In my opinion, one land is significantly better than two land. Two land makes Belcher not an automatic win condition, and it also makes the deck less consistant because you always want to land grant out the bayou instead of the taiga, giving yourself only green and black which most of your rituals are not. Dark ritual is awkward because you only have 9 sources in the deck to really get black from. The only advantage the 2 land version has in my book is the board options, but I prefer Xantid Swarms and blasts over anything anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by magicplaya10
Since people were talking about running Blood Moon in this deck (which I think is AWFUL) I thought I'd bring this up for consideration:
Tectonic Instability
It makes them tap out if they want to continue hitting land drops. This deck already has an autowin against every nonblue deck, so I don't think we need to worry about how you don't care about nonblue decks tapping out or not. Our only opponents are Force of Will and Daze if we play Tectonic Instability. With the rising MUC deck I think this is a legit card against it.
-4 Street Wraith, +4 Grim Monolith.
That is all.
Meh. It's colorless so it stops all progression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
Also, due to the recent banning turn 2 bounce will be now a lot less likely. Thank you WotC!
Well, it's probably the last ritual cast most of the time, but it does allow for a few interesting interactions like banking mana off of land+mox or two lands, and it's gotta be better than trying to TD off of Wraith.
Why does the banning of [card]Mystical Tutor[/card] reduce the number of turn 2 wins with Belcher? I am a bit confuzzled!Quote:
Originally Posted by TestMonkey
I am going to split [card]Street Wraith[/card]s and [card]Manamorphose[/card]s for now, 2 and 2, so I am able to test with 4 Monoliths and see what is better in that slot.
Fixed.
No more "wow that's a lot of goblins/unpopped Charbelcher on turn 1. End of your turn. Mystical Tutor for Echoing Truth." I really hated that play.
Holy Crap....Grim Monolith is UNBANNEDED!
So what do you think would be the proper cut for Monolith? i can see how Street Wraith would get cut, but I wouldn't cut Manamorphose, it fixes your manas.
The thing is, Street Wraith also helps draw through you the deck, so idk. I would probably test cutting the Wraith for Monolith. Ill show my results, if anyone else want to as well.
Manamorphose pros:Quote:
Originally Posted by magicplaya10
Adds to storm count.
Imprints for worthwhile colors
Fixes mana to cast Tinder Wall or even sb wish targets.
Street Wraith pros:
A better topdeck with less than two mana on the board.
Doesn't require committing mana.
Can't be countered.
Better to dig for SB cards (but best is aggro mull)
I am going to cut wraith.
I have been messing with taking out street wraith for grim monolith. While I haven't done enough testing for any truely conclusive results my initial impression is that it makes the deck worse. It seems like most of the time when I draw a monolith I am thinking...I wish this cycled.
is it possible to play it without leds?
Possible yes. Reasonable no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Augustas
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by thepenguin99
Does anyone play Welder in the board anymore? 4 Swarm 4 Welder postboard. They can't STP everything!!
I'll be testing it soon in my SI board so any comments on it are appreciated.
Technically. I play a list with 2 Chrome Moxen and 0 LED. Last time I played it I had 1 Mox and I went 4-0. Multiple T1 Belcher kills, but also more play-belcher-activate-next-turn action that I would like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Augustas
And I'm cutting black for monolits, going for 2 to 1 land. But, as previously stated, I don't have many of the good cards for Belcher.
I can see how Monolith helps if you actually are going for the Charbelcher kill, but maybe it's just me and my bad draws, I go for EtW about 80% of the time, either through drawing an EtW or through drawing Burning Wish. In the case of the EtW win condition, Grim Monolith is particularly worse (imho... there are a lot better/more experienced Belcher pilots than me) because I need that :r: and if I'm going the Burning Wish route, need :r::r:. I know no one is talking about/considering taking out Seething Song and for good reason, but I cannot see how Monolith can take over any other slot (because at the Desperate Ritual slot you lose your valuable :r:). Manamorphose is too vital for securing consistency, not to mention as a storm builder. Wraith, too is a storm builder in that it allows you to cycle to a card more useable/able to accrue storm (not implying it adds storm through cycling). In short, Monolith, if you cast it, adds only to the potential to go into Charbelcher, but for me, that isn't often enough to warrant removing something else at this point. Rite of Flame --> Desperate Ritual-->Seething Song is a ramper that cannot afford a monkey wrench like colourless mana.
Manamorphose isn't really vital for consistency. Its a flex slot cycler that color fixes. It also counts as a spell so I prefer it to Street Wraith.
Grim Monolith is pretty much a colorless Cabal Ritual in Belcher. It adds a net of 1, but its usually just going to be for a 1 time use. Even so, I agree it won't see much play.
Also, MMogg, have you tried playing with Spoils belcher? It relies much less on EtW.
Again, maybe it's just my draws, but I use Manamorphose a lot for casting Timber Wall. Without it, I would have a lot less consistency because those spells are vital for mana ramping. As you said, it's [Monolith] a colourless add one, and I don't think the deck needs that. Street Wraith is proof that the deck doesn't actually want more cards, it would probably be happier with fewer cards. :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
I've never seen a Spoils Belcher list, but I did playtest Spoils of the Vault in the Street Wraith slot and didn't like it as much. Yeah, I went for Belcher kills more often, but I also shat myself (burned myself to death) too often. =(
Grim Monolith is not only a colorless +1 mana. It's also a mana you can store for the turn after (like Tinder Wall), to be protected aginst daze with your belcher, or to activate it the same turn you play it, to avoid disenchant effects.
The colorless mana issue is actually mitigated by manamorphose, that can convert a colorless into anything, and by seething song/desperate ritual.
I'm cutting dark ritual from the list, now being entirely red/green. Here is it:
// Lands
1 [A] Taiga
// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
// Spells
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [9E] Seething Song
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [OD] Simplify
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
The SB might need some work, but the MD is quite solid.
Could you provide a sample hand for why you'd want to 'store mana'? I can't see too many situations where that would be profitable unless you get a really good untap phase (Taiga + Chrome Mox or something).
Yeah, i have one for ya! You have mulliganed to 5 and have a hand of Land Grant, Chrome Mox, Goblin Charbelcher, Empty the Warrens and Grim Monolith. You cast the Land Grant getting the forest of your choice, Chrome Mox imprinting EtW and then make Grim Monolith and pass the turn. Next turn, you uptap and draw Seething Song. You tap the Mox and the Monolith for :3: and :r:, cast Seething Song, giving you 5 :r: and :1:, then cast Goblin Charbelcher, leaving :1: and :r:, then tap your land for the 3rd mana and Belch for the win! Now, had this been a Street Wraith, this wouldn't have worked, as you would have had to get at least 2 more mana sources to go off!
If you go land/mox-> Tinder Wall/Rite of Flame-> Grim Monolith, you end up with 4 mana the next turn
Alright. Thats plausible. I guess it improves the consistency then. Has anyone one goldfished it yet to determine how it changes X% turn 1, X% turn 2, etc.
I have done some goldfish testing with monolith in for street wraith in the standard RG list. I played 25 games on the play and 25 games on the draw. I mulliganed any 6-7 card hand that did not have at least one win condition (belcher, ETW, burning wish). I also mulled if I did not have mana to win with another card or two. I wrote the turn the deck "went off" after each game. "going off" meant belching for 20+ or making 10 plus goblins. Here are my results...
ON THE PLAY (25 games)
T1- 4 games (3 gobs, 1 belch) 16%
T2- 9 games (2 gobs, 7 belch) 36% (1 belch failed and did 12 dam)
T3- 4 games (2 gobs, 2 belch) 16%
T4- 5 games (5 belch) 20%
T5- 3 games (3 belch) 12%
Mulled 11 times.
Mulled to 6 cards 20%
Mulled to 5 cards 16%
ON THE DRAW (25 games)
T1- 14 games (6 gobs, 8 belch) 56%
T2- 6 games (1 gobs, 5 belch) 24%
T3- 3 games (2 gobs, 1 belch) 12%
T4- 1 game (belch) 4%
T5- 1 game (belch) 4%
Mulled 6 times.
Mulled to 6 cards 24%
Did not mull below 6 cards.
OVERALL (50 games)
T1- 36%
T2- 30%
T3- 14%
T4- 12%
T5- 8%
Mulled 17 times (34%)
Mulled to 6 cards (24%)
Mulled to 5 cards (10%)
I liked a couple things about monolith. The first is knowing the card in your hand to open. I have neard people say that sometimes street wraith will draw you into your win condition. However, I would not keep a hand without a win condition. Therefore, I am always looking for mana. It is nice to know exactly what you are working with.
Secondly, it is nice to store 3 mana in some situations. One I remember was an opener of mox, belcher, monolith, buring wish, LED, and lotus petal. This hand allowed me to go...
T1- mox imprint wish, petal, play monolith
T2- play belcher, play LED, sac LED to activate becher, WIN
This situation does not sem that rare and it appears monolith is great at enabling early wins with LED and belcher that would not be there without monolith.
The concern about not making red mana really didn't come up when going for the win. Even when you need 4RR for wish and empty, monlith is making 1 of those mana. When you are at 4-5 mana, you have at least 2 red. You use 2 of the other mana to cast monolith. If you need 4RR, then you cast monolith as your last ritual. Even a hand like wish, rite, rite, petal, monolith, monolith can go off turn 1.
T1- petal for red, rite (RR), rite (RRRR), monolith and tap (3RR), use 2 colorless for monolith and tap (4RR), wish for ETW (3R), ETW for 14 goblins.
I think wraith filled a role when we didn't have another rital in RG. Now we do. I would not cut manamorphose becuase it is too important for fixing mana being cast or imprnited and for upping storm counts. I would cut monolith or manamorphose first when SB'ing. I would probably cut monolith if bringing in green cards like xantid swarm.
Here is my list with current SB...
// Lands
1 [R] Taiga
// Creatures
4 [CST] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
// Spells
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [MM] Cave-In
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [M10] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
I cut tendrils in the side because I never use it.
Nice results cb4!
Do you have a standard of comparison though? It looks really slow to me because I play SI. Does anyone have results w/out Grim Monolith to compare? Also, its a little unclear your results. Whats the exact number of times you won on turn 1, 2 ,etc. I can't tell from looking at your info because some say (6 gobs, 8 belch) so I'd imagine thats 6 EtW but when do they go all the way T2 or 3, and does the Belcher connect or misfire?
Also, how does Welder look post-board? It allows you to make use of your Monolith even after it got used for T: Add 3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb4
Wow great work and thanks for the stats. I think this points out the possibility of drawing vs playing. I think Belcher's main problem is dealing with counters or road blocks such as pithing needle, medling mage and chalice. I would be interesting to crunch numbers of getting out a swarm, attacking then pulling off a belcher or maybe pulling of warrens as fast as you can but not belchering until you get off a swarm attack.
Hence..... Goblin Welder. What are the thoughts about this? Consider the following play. Chrome Mox, (imprint Manamorphose) Goblin Welder, LED.Quote:
Originally Posted by jtwilkins
Next turn, Sac the LED, Float R, Tap Welder sacing Mox getting Belcher from your grave.. and activate. It also makes use of your Grim Monoliths after you have used them for T: 3.