[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

I have a metagame question for you guys:

The Source anniversary event in a couple weeks, I don't know what the meta will be, but I expect this:

Painter (epic and impereal)
Bryant with TES
Lots of rouge AdN
Thresh (mostly CB)
Goyf Sligh
Survival

What sort of build of DDay would you guys suggest? I really like my 15-land build but havent had much chance to test against painter. I think 16 land and grip might be necessary, with painter about, but I don't think red is. Running 4 basics also sounds like a damn good idea.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

I have a metagame question for you guys:

The Source anniversary event in a couple weeks, I don't know what the meta will be, but I expect this:

Painter (epic and impereal)
Bryant with TES
Lots of rouge AdN
Thresh (mostly CB)
Goyf Sligh
Survival

What sort of build of DDay would you guys suggest? I really like my 15-land build but havent had much chance to test against painter. I think 16 land and grip might be necessary, with painter about, but I don't think red is. Running 4 basics also sounds like a damn good idea.

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I would also expect some Landstill and some Thrash as well.
I don't think AN is gonna see that much play.

I would expect a good field of a bit of everything.

Survival seems to always make a showing. I would worry most about CB via painter and thresh.

Pce,

--DC

I'm thinking 4-color with 1MD and 3 SB grip, 17 lands. Basically, emidln's list with a tweaked SB.

Could someone give me some pointers on playing against a field of
-Ichorid
-Loam (a lot of it)
-TES
-GoyfSligh and some other anti-Loam decks
-Landstill

You're going to have the most success against Landstill when you maximize the number of Orim's Chant-type effects and Extirpates. This can let you potentially cut away cards like Duress* (for maindeck Extirpate and maindeck Infernal Tutors, acceleration, or Street Wraiths (which, counter-intuitively, help the Goyf Sligh matchup because of they cut down on the mana needed to win)) which help out quite a bit against the Chalice and/or Blood-Moon playing red decks like Aggro Loam and the speed hate decks like Goyf Sligh.

To rsaunder, I would very likely play my 4c maindeck (1of Sea, Tundra, Scrub, Trop, Bayou, Swamp, Plains, 2-of Island) with Serenity in the sb. A case could be made for Meddling Mage/Tombstalker over Serenity in that metagame.

Duress is absolutely fine against Landstill as a means to resolving Chant (especially after breaking a Standstill), but 8 protection isn't necessary against the rest of the field and this is the least-critical part of the deck if you aren't see a lot of CB-thresh.

I took first in a Legacy (and then a Vintage) event today playing Doomsday FT. For Legacy I played four actual rounds and ended up playing these decks:

2-0 vs Mono Red Burn
2-0 vs UW Control
2-1 vs UGBr CB/Thoughtseize Threshold
2-0 vs RGB Belcher

It's worth noting that the only game I lost (to Threshold) was because I managed to punt with Extirpate (forgetting to search his library for extra copies of Thoughtseize, which was the only card that concerned me given my hand). This compounded a problem of not being able to count to 4 (which is why the Extirpate mattered at all).

I played a speedier Doomsday FT list that looked like this:

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Street Wraith
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Orim's Chant
1 Wipe Away
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Swamp

3 Duress
2 Extirpate
1 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Grapeshot
1 Pyroclasm
1 Gigadrowse

I predicted very light Threshold (boy was I wrong, but a turn 2 protected win game 1 courtesy of Street Wraith and disruption-heavy hands games 2 and 3 pull me out) and a lot of Ad Nauseam storm combo. There was a lot of combo in the field, but most of it lost pretty quickly to the CB Thresh decks and the pure control decks. I wanted something that could race a lot burn and still put up the same pressure of Ad Nasueam. I was impressed with the list on the day and felt it was fine in an aggro metagame. The lack of basics didn't seem to matter at all (even vs turn 1 Magus of the Moon) with Lotus Petals and Street Wraiths and the deck felt extremely explosive. I took home 4 Scrublands for my troubles.

Vintage Report (for those who care)

I played FT in Vintage with the following changes:

-3 Lotus Petal
-3 Lion's Eye Diamond
-3 Brainstorm
-3 Mystical Tutor
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-1 Wipe Away
-4 Orim's Chant
-1 Doomsday
-1 Cabal Ritual

+1 Black Lotus
+1 Mox Sapphire
+1 Mox Jet
+1 Ancestral Recall
+1 Ponder
+1 Gush
+1 Merchant Scroll
+1 Vampiric Tutor
+1 Imperial Seal
+1 Demonic Tutor
+4 Duress
+1 Research/Development
+1 Rushing River
+1 Time Walk
+1 Timetwister
+1 Yawgmoth's Will
+1 Necropotence

I tweaked the manabase to add a Tropical Island in place of a Flooded Strand and another basic island over the second sea. The deck performed admirably going 3-0-1 (with the draw being an ID with my brother) and netting me first prize of a Strategic Planning (not bad for a free event). My sideboard had 3 Orim's Chant, an additional Tendrils of Agony, a Pact of Negation (that should be maindeck), Chain of Vapor, Tinker+DSC, Hurkyl's Recall, Dark Confidants, Grudges, etc. I won all of my matches 2-0 including:

Round 1 vs UB Rogues (Earwig Squad is awkward game 2, but I win anyway)
Round 2 vs Goblins (ID)
Round 3 vs Acclerated Blue Tezz
Round 4 vs TPS (technically, I won 2-1, but I somehow put Mind's Desire below-Research/Development and then lost on the ensuing turn when my opponent Tinkered for Memory Jar. Had I checked my Doomsday pile properly, I win 2-0 in games that aren't close at all)

All in all, this was a very good day for FT Doomsday.

Lately I've been playing this deck against Canadian Trash and felt it was a rather difficult matchup because of the disruption and the burn. Especially the bolts and fire/ice were making difficulties for me as I am still not so experienced in playing this deck. What really proved to be nice is that unlike other combo decks FT didn't care about Spell Snare at all (Emidln's slower UBgw list) as there simply is only one card with cc2 in it. The main problem was that this deck needs a certain amount of life to go off successfully and while it was not even so hard to go off through Stifle and Force of will, most of the time they still were delaying me enough to bring me within burn range if I payed half of my life.
So how should I play against those fast aggro control decks and what would you sideboard against them?
Until now I did something like this:
-1 Cabal Ritual (as it never did resolve)
-1 Krosan Grip (useless here)
+2 extirpate (mainly on FOW)

Gigadrowse for 3sphere?

Is Grudge really better then Serenity with only Petals as G source?

I never needed either of them, but Grudge was theoretically better against Top and Needle. I didn't expect any Stax or Stompy decks. Gigadrowse deals with decks playing Orim's Chant, Stifle, or Extirpate by denying them the requisite colored mana. I expected a high amount of Tendrils combo and boarded appropriately.

Can anyone give me a brief introduction to FT pls. Playstyle, matchups etc.

I have been playing quite a lot of TES and I want to try this deck out, because it seems like it has a lot more game against threshold.

The problem is that I dont know how the deck is supposed to be played. I understand the Doomsday piles, but I still have a problem goldfishing the deck before turn 4-5 even without disruption.:rolleyes:

The deck is so complex, so I think a premier ( maybe even a short one ) would make it much easier for people like me to pick the deck up and start testing.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showt...light=doomsday

I think this is not up2date and finished

Just give us some sample hands and how you play them, and the rules you usually follow. Like "I always play SDT on turn 1 if I have it" or "I always play Brainstorm over ponder in those situations" "I use cantrips even if they are my only draw piece in hand" etc.

Or maybe you can't just see hands that win. A hand like "Brainstorm, Mystical Tutor, dark ritual, 4 lands" which seems something not great is a turn 3 on the play if you don't draw any more acceleration pieces, otherwise it's a turn 2.

Greenone can you play that hand for me, because I have trouble spotting the decent hands.

FT plays very differently than TES.

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Originally Posted by Espenhein

Greenone can you play that hand for me, because I have trouble spotting the decent hands.

FT plays very differently than TES.

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Assuming you just draw more lands, you go for the [Brainstorm, 2 cards in hand, 1U mana available] Doomsday stack.

Turn 1: Land, Pass.
Turn 2: Land, EOT Mystical Tutor for Doomsday.
Turn 3: Land, Dark Ritual, Doomsday for:
SDT
LED
LED
IGG
Tendrils
Brainstorm into LED, LED, SDT, put back 2 dead cards. Tap the remaining land to play SDT, LED, LED. Pop LEDs for UUUBBB, activate Top, rearrange (UUBBB) then tap it and play IGG (U) getting back LED, LED, Brainstorm. Play Brainstorm, popping LEDs in response (UUUBBB) into Land, Land, SDT, putting back 2 Lands. Play SDT, rearrange (UBBB) then tap it and play Tendrils with no mana floating and 12 (if I counted correctly) Storm.

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Originally Posted by Espenhein

Greenone can you play that hand for me, because I have trouble spotting the decent hands.

FT plays very differently than TES.

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Join the storm boards (you can find the link on emidln sig). Here there is plenty of discussion on puzzles and how to play hands. If problem persists, ask emidln if he can show some goldfishes to you on mws, and do a lot of goldfishing yourself!

Don't get discouraged and keep rocking with FT. This is actually the most challenging deck in te format, and you can learn lots of things playing it.

Yea I like the challenge and I like the fact that it can always be tuned to a specific metagame ( Cant afford multible decks )

I will try joining the stormboards and keep goldfishing. I suppose this is just beginner problems.:smile:

Btw. what list is best for beginners in a unknown metagame?

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

Join the storm boards (you can find the link on emidln sig). Here there is plenty of discussion on puzzles and how to play hands. If problem persists, ask emidln if he can show some goldfishes to you on mws, and do a lot of goldfishing yourself!

Don't get discouraged and keep rocking with FT. This is actually the most challenging deck in te format, and you can learn lots of things playing it.

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You can always decide to play a good combo deck in TES. I don't agree on how this deck is better especially without the inclusion of Ad Naiseum. This card puts TES over the top with so many turn 1 kills.

If I played a storm combo deck, I would pick a deck that wins the game as fast as possible and not on turns 4-5 where an aggro deck can just beat you.

For some reason when I mention the word "Doomsday", people just laugh. I don't know why, but they do. :)

I agree that TES is very good combo deck, but every game starts feeling the same, when you have played the deck for some time.

I need some variety especially when I cant afford to make multible decks for different purposes. Besides I really like the waiting game of FT.

Can anyone post a link to the storm boards?, seems like Emildn has changed his sig

[SNIP]

Warned for Flaming. - Nihil Credo

If you're good with the deck, an average of a turn 3 goldfish is very widely agreed upon. Goblins can race this almost never, not can many other aggro decks. Post board, the deck speeds up more from IT+IGG and doesnt require the life of doomsday.

The deck also plays 8 disruption, 2 more than even the most protected TES. 4 basics is also pretty good, I hear.

In addition to this, the deck never fizzles. You can draw nothing off AdN or returns, doomsday always wins because you know exactly what you're getting into.

TES is faster, yes, but at a cost.

My budget is slim atm.

What would be the best substitute for Orims Chant? Abeyance, Pact etc.

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Originally Posted by Espenhein

My budget is slim atm.

What would be the best substitute for Orims Chant? Abeyance, Pact etc.

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Abeyance is also a como enabler. That can't be totally discounted. And it lets you run IGG loops and you dont need it in your hand when being disrupted, so I'd say abeyance.

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

You can always decide to play a good combo deck in TES. I don't agree on how this deck is better especially without the inclusion of Ad Naiseum. This card puts TES over the top with so many turn 1 kills.

If I played a storm combo deck, I would pick a deck that wins the game as fast as possible and not on turns 4-5 where an aggro deck can just beat you.

For some reason when I mention the word "Doomsday", people just laugh. I don't know why, but they do. :)

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TES is a little faster, true...

BUT ft is a lot more consistent (more draw, and has tutors for set-up)... and it runs a lot more disruption (can tutor for it, and usually runs 2-3 more disruption than TES)...


Also... we don't auto-lose to CB.

Anyways, I don't want anyone to get extremely but-hurt, so I will stop here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Espenhein

My budget is slim atm.

What would be the best substitute for Orims Chant? Abeyance, Pact etc.

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I'd play Duress in a Doomsday heavy list and Abeyance in a more IGG oriented list.

Ty Greenone I got the link. Feel free to edit your post so you dont get in trouble :wink:

I think I wanna play a list with 8 MD protection. Would 4 Duress and 4 Abeyance work?

In this case I'd play 4 Duress and 3 Abeyance +1 Infernal Tutor.

Against burn decks and Tarmoslight/boros you need to Doomsday afer a chant effect, but due to the speed of the opposing aggro deck you will not always be able to pay the 1 more for abeyance. Thank god against those decks you can just tutor for IT and go the IGG route.

Note that abeyance is a lot worse against aggro decks than Chant, which can timewalk all day against them. Abeyance is also hit by Spell Snare, shich is not great against Thresh-like decks. It can be however, better against landstill type decks. Just do your metagame consideration before playing it blindly :wink:

yes I know Abeyance is suboptimal, but I dont have any other options at the moment.

What list would you recommend, now when you know my limitations?

Aske emidln with PM, he's great at making decklist on the spot knowing the needs and the meta.

I went up to 5 basics and dropped the 9th Fetch I was trying out (Mire--Don't do it, go Heath if you go 9 fetches). I'm running a manabase like:

8x U fetches
2x Swamp
2x Island
1x Plains
1x Trop
1x USea
1x Tundra
1x Scrub

It's performing well. I'm in the middle of tweaking my sideboard to beat Dragon Stompy. Honestly, I lose to it so consistantly that I'm getting ticked. My sideboard looks like this atm:

3x Serenity (This might be the problem--I might need 4x)
3x RR
2x K. Grip
2x 'Pate
1x E. Truth
1x Grapeshot
1x Helm
1x IT
1x Abeyance

The abeyance will probably become Serenity #4. I use the IT for when I go IGG. With a bit more practice, I may drop the IT in favor of Abeyance, as it's nice to have 9x Disruption spells against TES--I haven't lost a match to AdN TES ever so far.

The problem I'm having is what to drop for SBing against DS. I'm not even sure if the Grips go in or not against it as they only way to play them is LED (not a good idea), Petal (only run 1x) and Trop (Moon FX stop this). I haven't been boarding them in. Maybe I should? Help needed, I guess...

Also, I am using Wipe Away MD'ed instead of Grip. It's working out better for my meta.

Pce,

--DC

Did yuo try 1xLim Dul instead of 1 Mystical to have less 1CC spells and Tutor for Serenity/bounce? It MAY help against DS.

Lim-Dul's Vault is good against Stax and Faerie Stompy, but it's way worse against Dragon Stompy. It's either Chalice or Moon that is gonna deny you a tutor. If there's a choice to be made here, you should get that vulnerability hit by the one that is less present in the deck, which is Chalice, not Moon.

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Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

The problem I'm having is what to drop for SBing against DS. I'm not even sure if the Grips go in or not against it as they only way to play them is LED (not a good idea), Petal (only run 1x) and Trop (Moon FX stop this). I haven't been boarding them in. Maybe I should? Help needed, I guess...

Also, I am using Wipe Away MD'ed instead of Grip. It's working out better for my meta.

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Don't use Grips against Stompy. I don't even recommend them against any other Chalice decks, since you have better options with Truth, River and Wipe Away. My boarding against DS is this:

-2 Ponder, -1 Grip, -4 Chant, +2 River, +3 Serenity, +1 IT, +1 Pact
(I have 1 Truth and 0 Contract in the maindeck)

I don't feel that a 2nd IGG is needed in this match. They can't disrupt you in a way you can't disrupt them back, so you will only have to care about having answers and not being caught under a heavy clock.

I don't board out Chant against Stompy decks if I'm on the play, since I think Time Walks gives enough time to set up for the win (e.g. Chant their first turn, drop Serenity second turn, go off on 3rd turn unimpeded). Is this a bad choice?

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

I don't board out Chant against Stompy decks if I'm on the play, since I think Time Walks gives enough time to set up for the win (e.g. Chant their first turn, drop Serenity second turn, go off on 3rd turn unimpeded). Is this a bad choice?

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You only have about a 40-something percent chance of pulling one in your opening hand, even less that you will pull one and a white land. I generally side them out, but it's just my playstyle and what I think is the best way to play the odds. Chant has saved me a few times as a timewalk in that matchup, but never as much as serenity or duress or R. River.

I wanna play FT at the danish nationals, but I dont know which list I should choose.?:rolleyes:

I predict my meta to be:

10% Threshold
10% Landstill or similar control decks

Lots of random aggro + rock-like decks without much discard. I dont expect to see much DS, Stax or FS.

I would play a Speed FT list, with Wraiths, Petals and Cabal Rits, in a meta like that.

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Originally Posted by TeKo

I would play a Speed FT list, with Wraiths, Petals and Cabal Rits, in a meta like that.

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With AN out, does playing a version like that still have sense? I'd play ANT at this point.

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

With AN out, does playing a version like that still have sense? I'd play ANT at this point.

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SI and belcher are still much faster than ANT decks...


I would never play another combo deck aside from FT... as it is the most consistent (read: more cantrips than threshold and tutors), and can kill almost as fast...

We also don't scoop to hate like other combo decks do, well at least not nearly as bad :wink: ...


Does anyone know what kind of doomsday stacks work with just two mana floating, a brainstorm in hand, and some dead cards in hand?


I just could not figure this out...

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Does anyone know what kind of doomsday stacks work with just two mana floating, a brainstorm in hand, and some dead cards in hand?

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I uploaded some of the Stacks posted here:
http://home.versanet.de/~mitja/FT_ddstacks.html

Brainstorm in hand (and 2 cards), 1U floating:

1 SDT
1 LED
1 LED
1 IGG
1 Tendrils

Play brainstorm with U, drawing sdt, 2xled replacing the 2 cards. Plat SDT and both LEDs, pop 'em for UUUBBB. Spin top with U placing IGG on top, draw IGG and IGG with U floating returning brainstorm, LED, LED. Play both led's and pop 'em with brainstorm on the stack for BBBBBB. Replay top, spin top putting tendrils on top and draw it and cast it.