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Rekk,What's the theory behind Ignorant Bliss?
When I played 2 Karakas,I boarded out a fetch and a spell.
I was never disappointed.
Lately iv been wanting a non graveyard engine to wish for. I was thinking about main boarding a Cruel Bargain and having a Doomsday to wish for. Haven't tested it yet. Although I have en goldfishing with Doomsday and it seems like it could work
Constructive criticism only please.
That's asking for a lot. When I play with wishes I usually run a Time Spiral in the board as the extra engine. It has been working very well for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG Junkie
As for doomsday and cruel bargain, your going to need to modify the standard storm deck to make those work consistently. I can see doomsday as an option if you can fit in an a couple SDT for the draw effect, but at that point in time you might as well be playing Doomsday storm. The big thing with doomsday is playing a draw spell after you play DD to continue your storm chain, which means that you cannot break an LED in response given a standard burning wish storm setup. You are going to need a very select hand on average to make the work as well as alot of mana unless you have a SDT in play.
I have a very bias option of Cruel Bargain, so I will spare you that. There is also Ideas Unbound to try (also from DD)
What situations do you want a wishable storm engine in?
I personally dislike Draw7s without chant effects. It's never really a good effect when you're facing interactive decks. Draw4 are Not really good either as they take away your life total plus 4 cards are not that many resources unless you draw the right ones. Doomsday + Infernal Contract is a mana-intensive plan plus needs a draw trigger. I don't really know why you want an engine to wish for, but have you tried Past in Flames? It's as narrow as a Draw4 basically, but doesn't eat your life-total and you can use it twice.
There are situations for all of the above mentioned, but for me it came down to playing without Wishes. My List is suboptimal, I know, but for some strange reason it works for me:
Land:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
Spells:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Lim Dûl's Vault
1 Preordain
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
Sideboard is pretty much the usual, no Karakas though.
I am quite impressed with the list. Even more that it somehow works for me. I know it shouldn't work. But for about two weeks now I've not missed a thing. LDV is quite cool as it looks for many different things, although you need several draws to get all of them, but in some situations that's even better than any of the other tutors. I don't know. Maybe I'm just having luck...
The op asked for a non-graveyard (not past in flames) wishable storm engines. Its not like there is a lot of that. Diminishing Returns and Time Spiral are the only good ones that come to mind. Against things like Jund and Deadguy or even dredge it gives the burning wish build the ablility to reset the game with out them really being able to interact which is really good against decks that attack your hand. Its also give you the ability to play to outs were games should be out of reach if you happen to get a good seven.Quote:
Originally Posted by GexxX
I agree with you about doomsday and the draw fours.
Well I didn't really think about the graveyard aspect when I recommended PiF, true. It does still prove the point, doesn't it? There aren't many options for wishable engines. On top of that most are situational or plain crap. I think you should not sacrifice many slots in the board for situational engines. What you can do is try to figure out which situation you fear most and pick the best and maybe second best card for them. Just think about your board carefully in general. Many have said that before, but once again: This type of deck changes its playstyle dramatically even with only a few cards swapped out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rampart
Draw7s do benefit from matchups where you encounter discard, but so does PiF. He can't really want us to suggest cards for those matchups, right? Artifact mana will be cast as soon as we know he packs discard anyway. So what's the point of dodging the yard as resource!?
@MTG Junkie: Right now I am confused whether or not we are able to answer without knowing more facts...
The point was that the OP was asking for non-graveyard engines that are burning wishable. Usually when you cast burning wish is its for the situational issues that you run into as the game progress or to solve a problem or just to win. Also most Burning Wish builds run a PIF in the side board anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by GexxX
Sometimes your graveyard isn't a resource that you can use. Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Piece are maindeck playable cards that completely disrupt the PIF plan. then you have to deal with sideboard cards after game one.
There also tends to be this reoccurring issue with burning wish, it gets exiled when you cast it. In some games that will be the only tutor that you draw, its not going to win you the game, but with a Spiral or Returns in the board it gives you outs to play to. I would rather have a chance to win the game then to just loose.
You couldn't have said it better,thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rampart
I'm not a fan of Dim Returns or Time Spiral. In a deck with 8-9 fetches and no Chrome Mox its real easy to wif. Not to mention hurts your C Rits and is bad verse counter spells.
But hey if it works for you guys,cool.
A lot of people board in there grave hate against ANT just because its there. That's why I want a non graveyard engine
Rekk,I'm wondering if you saw my comment about your post?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG Junkie
Here ya goQuote:
Originally Posted by from facebook
my oppinion on doomsday for ant is that it might be hard to cast dd after a burning wish because you can't crack an led. Basically top is the best card in the doomsday deck, but is a little to slow and doesn't give cabal thresh, thus cannot be a 4 of. I could be convinced of cruel bargain, and as i said on facebook, reforge could be a sweet options but the infi red and no silences in our deck. against nonblue decks aka jund having a time sprial would be insane probably just win. playing petals and leds survives hymn, basically just pull a high tide.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG Junkie
So now im on roll.
awesome burning wish targets list
Reforge
Grim
Spiral
Empty
Doomsday (we can find room for 2 tops if we do this)
Diminishing returns
(tendrils)
The other option that some people have talked about in TES is Reforge the Soul. You guys are going to have a hard time casting it off of anything but LED since you essentially need triple R, but it does help out with Cabal Ritual. I suspect that Diminishing Returns or Time Spiral are going to be better though.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG Junkie
Whispering Madness is another potential D7...but it doesn't seem very good in the late-game topdeck situations where you want a D7.
Hi guys!
I've been working on a UBgr ANT list, when I started building I put myself some goals to achieve:
-Be wasteland resilient.
-Have a solid manabase even I'm splashing 2 more colors, in the way of being capable of casting all your spells most times.
-Have a plan to beat discard spells as BUG/Jund are rising in popularity nowadays.
-Be prepared to beat counterbalance.
-Have a plan against RUG and Esper Blade.
-I won't be prepared for MUD or another tomb chalice.decks because it would be too greedy with only 15 slots on SB.
-Achieve those goals with a list as fast as possible.
So... after testing I've come to this:
Pretty standard I must say...
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Island
1 Swamp
I run 15 lands, I tried 14+Chrome mox but in a metagame full of discard-spells I think is not a good idea 2 for 1 yourself, even though Chrome mox makes the deck faster by making Ad Nauseam a much better choice when you go off.
2 Gemstone Mines are from Adam Prosak's list. At first I disliked them because I thought they made my manabase worse, but now i don't think so, I know they are wasteable, but Trop/Bayou MD also are, and they can produce every color you need to play all your splashes in addition to Volcanic Island and trop SB. They are also inmune to stifle effects, which is relevant against RUG/BUG, you just hold them in hand until you go off, in this scenario are way better than other land because makes every colour you need and can't be stifled. The worse side is when you only have gemstones in your hand against a wasteland deck and that's the reason I only run 2 of them. The fact that they only have 3 maximum uses wouldn't be relevant in this deck if you play them correctly.
I've been playing 3 basics (2 island 1 swamp) since I started working on ANT, I love the 2nd island against stifle+waste decks where you need to cast a ton of cantrips to grind them out and be resilient to wasteland at the same time. I also love the 8th fetch because it provides you another shuffle-effect and can find basic swamp. I prefer the fetch against most of the decks but tempo, so that's the reason I only play 2. I must say i'm not sold on any side of this question, I'm still testing it. What do you guys think about it?
1 ToA
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
Pretty standard build as i said before. I'm running 5 tutors because when I tested with 2 Grims I had hands with too much business, besides the fact that Grim Tutor is sooo terrible, with 1 Grim you're not dead to a surgical on your infernals, and I feel I have good chances of finding the business as I would have if only I was playing 4 tutors. Running that build allows me to play 2 preordain which I really like to filter my top anyway I only own 1 Grim so there's nothing I can do about it. :laugh:
I would like to play 8 discard spells MD but I only have room for 7, so the 8th goes to the SB.
Sideboard:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Chain of vapor
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Tropical Island
4 Dark confidant: Mostly against discard spells, some people said me I was making my opp removal usefull, but honestly, I think Dark confidant worth it, my opponents usually left a little spot removal post board, 4 stp, 4 lightning... stuff like that, so there're sometimes where they have to burn cantrips to find the card that deals with Dark Confidant, that's why I run 4, I often want a 2nd to start overwhelming my opp in card advantage.
I think that's the best way to deal against discard spells, PIF makes us some kind of resilient if we have a ritual-heavy hand but with the appereance
of Deathrite Shaman, we definitely need to run something to refill our's deck gas.
At first, I used the green splash to play Xantid Swarm, I really like those insects because they are insane against blue decks, they have to find an answer or loose. In the current metagame I think dark confidant covers way more matchups, so that's the reason I don't play any of them, against RUG I preffer Xantid instead of Confidant, but the wizard is not bat at all and help us a lot against other decks.
In a deck that runs 4 Cabal therapy post SB I also found really nice having the opportunity to flash my therapies back! :wink:
3 Abrupt Decay: Against Cbalance, if I expect them I would probably run 4.
3 Cov: Really good against a lot of things, you know...
2 Tormod's Crypt: I want to have some GY hate, to have a chance against Reanimator or a high speed start of LED Dredge, I know since DRS was printed GY decks are not as common as before, but I wanted to be covered if I could.
Those are my actual SB plans:
RUG/BUG/Esper Blade:
-4 Probe
-2 Preordain
+4 Dark confidant
+1 Cabal Therapy
+1 Thoughtseize
I do not bring the 16th land, but I don't splash green, so the manabase is less tricky with this plan. I tried carpet of flowers and is nice, but I have no room for it.
UW Miracles:
-4 Probe
-1 Lotus Petal
-1 Verdant Catacombs
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Cabal Therapy
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Tropical Island
Reanimator:
-4 Probe
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Cabal Therapy
Show and tell:
-4 Probe
-2 Preordain
+4 Dark Confidant (they have no way to interact and if you can slow them with your discard spells, Dark confidant can provide you a huge advantage)
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Cabal Therapy
Dredge:
-2 Cabal Therapy
+2 Tormod's Crypt
Jund:
-4 Duress
+4 Dark Confidant
Hatebears:
-4 Duress
-2 Preordain
-1 Verdant catacombs
+3 Abrupt Decay
+3 Chain of Vapor
+1 Tropical Island
Notice I left my 3 cabal therapies in against non blue, that's because I always try to fire one naming mindbreak trap just in case, and, in worst case scenario it can be used to discard some guys to buy us some time.
I'll appreciate comments to improve my deck!
Thanks!
- You aren't very resilient to wasteland. Volcanic Island doesn't make sense in your list. You have enough red sources for PiF without it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigyn
- Get rid of Gemstone Mine. After you add Trop in the board you'll have enough G sources to cast AD. More basics
- If I were on the "must beat discard" train, I'd rather have Ad Nauseam #2 than Grim Tutor
- Looks like you've got CB as covered as possible. The only other option is DD/SDI/Emrakul
- Storm has a plan against those decks.
- Why aren't you prepared for MUD/Chalice? Abrupt Decay blows up chalice on 2.
Sorry i might be wols but is there a reason why recent ANT lists aren't running burning wishes anymore? (Timo to Prosak's list) I also feel that having a wishable board means we can go ETW and IGG as alternative win cons. Plus it can even search out pyroclasm for a turn 2 thalia or teeg in game 1. Preordain seems to make the deck more streamlined for Pif or Ad Nauseum but is it worth sacrificing burning wish for?
Secondly, I am not sure those playing UB lists have their tendrils being discarded and extracted before? If that is the case, isn't it an auto win since we dont have ETW in the SB anymore?
Thanks for clarifying!
Volcanic is necessary to cast PIF, you don't always have the petals, or simply you want to shuffle them with brainstorm in exchange for rituals or another things. I never feel I wasn't resilient to wasteland because of the Volcanic.Quote:
Originally Posted by leegoo
I played 1 trop MD in my older builds and was fine, but a little awkward when i need another land and I only have the trop... I'm gonna try it on the SB with more basics, you're maybe right.Quote:
Originally Posted by leegoo
But 2nd AN makes your Ad Nauseams worse by uping your curve, and Ad Nauseam is always my last choice if I can go another way.Quote:
Originally Posted by leegoo
Interesting... It's not a bad idea if I expect a lot of counterbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by leegoo
Yeah, I mean I must build a plan with my SB, Xantid, confidant, adding more discard... you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by leegoo
[/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by leegoo
Because they play Lodestone golem, Torn of Amethyst and stuff like that, to be well prepared I would run Hurkyls recall+rebuild, but yeah, AD give us a chance.
If you want the Volc go for it... but 1 spell that isn't necessarily even your route to victory is sketchy imo. I'm not sure that not having volc to cast PiF has cost me a game... I'm sure it's cost me less than having nonbasic vs. basic island in my opening hand has. If you are dead set on the Volc, it seems criminal not to have an EtW somewhere in the board.
2nd Ad Nauseam doesn't really up your cost as opposed to grim tutor. Flipping AdN = 5 life. Flipping/casting Grim = 6. That said, I said in the context of vs. discard the 2nd AdN was better... not that it was better overall.
I mean yeah... if they resolve Golem and thorn you're in trouble... but you're in trouble even if a hurkyl's / rebuild is in your sb.
I used to have EtW, I recently cut it from the SB because it hasn't been great, what card do you side out for Etw? Ad Nauseam?.
Do you like 1 IGG on the SB?, It's like PIF but you can loop with x2 LED + infernal against non-blue decks.
Thanks for the answers!
This is a falacy. While if you REVEAL AND PLAY Grim tutor you are losing 6 life in the process. REvaling GT cost only 3 life, and this means that you can still keep revealing and gain 2-5 cards in the process extra, and if one of those cards is an Infernal Tutor (now you have effectively lost 5 life) you can go off while you won't be able to do that when revealing that second Ad Nauseam that you compared to GT.Quote:
Originally Posted by leegoo
Greetings,
Iņaki.-
Right, only if you want to use your tutor will it cost you 6 life... you know what I meant however. But you are right, revealing it and NOT casting it saves you (maybe) one life if the next card you flip is LED/Petal and then IT. Point conceded.Quote:
Originally Posted by egosum
Grim Tutor is a bad card. It's simply the best card ANT has access to for the slot. It's been this way ever since Mystical was banned. It still is.
I said if he wanted to beat discard decks the 2nd Ad Nauseam is better than the Grim Tutor. Having 2 chances at raw drawing Ad Nauseam as opposed to having to tutor for it is huge against discard decks.
BW was fairly difficult to cast before the green splash, it's certainly not possible to play 4 BW along with a green splash. You can still play BW if you want, you just can't play Abrupt Decay with it. Non-BW builds have very few outs to Thalia and no outs to Hatebears G1, it's just part of playing the non-BW version.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1987
It's an auto lose, you definitely have to avoid drawing Tendrils if you can against discard decks, or you need to protect it if you draw it, since they often have Deathrite, and Discard + Deathrite is also autolose. That said, it's not that difficult to prevent exposing your Tendrils to those cards, so it's mostly a non-issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1987
I haven't used EtW in ANT (but I don't play a volc) so it could just be poop in a list w/o burning wish. It's a card I like to see a lot in TES vs. Delver decks, but TES has a lot better chance of making a bunch of gobbos. I guess I'm saying the more I think about it the more I don't like EtW :P So yeah...awkward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigyn
IGG is fine I suppose. I feel like against non-blue decks PiF, while a bit worse, is at least serviceable, and you may need the SB space to actually fight through their hate(bears/thorns/whatever) so if you had the extra room it's ok, but it would definitely be the 15th slot on the sb.