[Primer/Deck] Pox

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Originally Posted by Pittplayer

Force of Despair seems like good sidehoard tech vs Elves, Reanimator, Death and Taxes, and Goblins. Pox decks struggle against swarm decks and combo decks. The instant speed and being free to play could break a elves player combo turn. Thoughts?

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The exact way this card works makes it an extremely poor fit for pox in my opinion. Mainly because it only hits creatures that entered the battlefield *this turn*, so if you topdeck when you're already behind then it doesn't do anything, and you have no option to cast it for any kind of value so you're stuck between either holding it and waiting for your opponent to play a creature, or discarding it to your Liliana

Then if we assume you start with it in your opening hand every time you can consider the possible matchups where you want this card
- Griselbrand will still draw 7 in response so it's not much different to an innocent blood and just like every other card you could play Iona on black makes this uncastable
- Goblins doesn't really play multiple things in one turn
- Neither does DNT, and in your mono-black removal deck do you really need to force of will a mother of runes or a stoneforge
- Against elves it's okay, you could disrupt a combo turn by killing Nettle Sentinel and Heritage Druid, for example, but this seems like it should already be an easy matchup for Pox

It does seem really good against turn 1 empty the warrens but it seems like there are better options vs basically every other deck where this card would do something (NOSB or engineered plague etc)

Plague Engineer in Pox?

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Originally Posted by Pittplayer

Plague Engineer in Pox?

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I'm going to guess not. Engineered Plague is the same cost and more difficult to remove. Plus it doesn't die to your own symmetrical sac effects. I think the "opponents only" clause is probably rare that it matters.

Still hoping for some goodies in MH though!

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Originally Posted by ronco

I'm going to guess not. Engineered Plague is the same cost and more difficult to remove. Plus it doesn't die to your own symmetrical sac effects. I think the "opponents only" clause is probably rare that it matters.

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But it can be abused with spells like unearth and can swing in a deck that usally is to slow to capitalize on it's own disruption.

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Originally Posted by Pittplayer

But it can be abused with spells like unearth and can swing in a deck that usally is to slow to capitalize on it's own disruption.

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That's fair. I don't think ill pick up any but if people start seeing results i'm happy to say i was wrong on it.

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Originally Posted by Pittplayer

But it can be abused with spells like unearth and can swing in a deck that usally is to slow to capitalize on it's own disruption.

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I saw this card as an all-star in something like Deadguy, but not in Pox. The glory of our disruption is we break the symmetry of our effects by playing a different game than our opponents. Innocent Blood only hitting them is critical to Pox. When on our side we either sacrifice nothing or a Nether Spirit or whatever, that's the value. It gets messy once you're holding back a Smallpox because you don't want to lose your creature. That's the position you're trying to navigate them into, not the other way around.

That said I agree with ronco, I'll shut up to some results. Happily so.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

I saw this card as an all-star in something like Deadguy, but not in Pox. The glory of our disruption is we break the symmetry of our effects by playing a different game than our opponents. Innocent Blood only hitting them is critical to Pox. When on our side we either sacrifice nothing or a Nether Spirit or whatever, that's the value. It gets messy once you're holding back a Smallpox because you don't want to lose your creature. That's the position you're trying to navigate them into, not the other way around.

That said I agree with ronco, I'll shut up to some results. Happily so.

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I run a aggro bloodghast build with unearths. So it fits in my deck. I've been playing Pox decks since Smallpox was unleashed, I understand the Pox playstyle. Against elves and tokens, innocent Blood loses value in the long game. In comes Plague Engineer.

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Originally Posted by Pittplayer

I run a aggro bloodghast build with unearths. So it fits in my deck. I've been playing Pox decks since Smallpox was unleashed, I understand the Pox playstyle. Against elves and tokens, innocent Blood loses value in the long game. In comes Plague Engineer.

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What kind of things do you/others run in unearth pox? Eternal witness?

I haven't used Unearth in a pox deck before, but Unearth + Witness is pure gas when I've done it in rock-style decks. I think there are other options as well, like Vampire Hexmage and Dark Confidant. Where it only costs B it's realistic to just grab a Confidant that got caught up in a Liliana activation or Smallpox. Plague Engineer seems almost worth it, but I think Engineered Plague generally speaking is better as a sideboard card due to invalidating creature removal.

out of interest, what do you think would push pox to a really competitive deck? it seems to hold it's own but not enough to really be represented in the top 8's a lot...

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Originally Posted by amjw

out of interest, what do you think would push pox to a really competitive deck? it seems to hold it's own but not enough to really be represented in the top 8's a lot...

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A playable artifact that generates card filtering/quality, similar to what Sensei's Divining Top did. Something slightly less powerful, like a 1-drop that taps to scry 1 and sacrifices to draw 1, or a 2 drop that costs 1 to scry 2 and sacrifices to draw 1.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I haven't used Unearth in a pox deck before, but Unearth + Witness is pure gas when I've done it in rock-style decks. I think there are other options as well, like Vampire Hexmage and Dark Confidant. Where it only costs B it's realistic to just grab a Confidant that got caught up in a Liliana activation or Smallpox. Plague Engineer seems almost worth it, but I think Engineered Plague generally speaking is better as a sideboard card due to invalidating creature removal.

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Right now I'm running a b/u Pox deck with Bloodghast, Snapcaster Mage, and Spellseeker. Unearth gets all kinds of value in this deck. I'm testing Plague Engineer in the sb right now and so far I'm loving it.

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Originally Posted by Pittplayer

Right now I'm running a b/u Pox deck with Bloodghast, Snapcaster Mage, and Spellseeker. Unearth gets all kinds of value in this deck. I'm testing Plague Engineer in the sb right now and so far I'm loving it.

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Sounds cool! There was someone messing with a B/u pox deck recently playing BStorms and Jaces, which I thought was very good. It solved the issues of card filtering but added a whole new level of mana instability. And it needed to dedicate slots to mana-fixing (Talismans I think.) I just love the idea of playing Brainstorm and Jace alongside pox effects, it just piles on card advantage like a dump truck.

The Spellseeker/Unearth synergy is pretty hot, honestly. It allows for some pretty cool toolboxing.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Sounds cool! There was someone messing with a B/u pox deck recently playing BStorms and Jaces, which I thought was very good. It solved the issues of card filtering but added a whole new level of mana instability. And it needed to dedicate slots to mana-fixing (Talismans I think.) I just love the idea of playing Brainstorm and Jace alongside pox effects, it just piles on card advantage like a dump truck.

The Spellseeker/Unearth synergy is pretty hot, honestly. It allows for some pretty cool toolboxing.

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Brainstorm and Jace do not belong on Pox. 1. Pox wants to play it's hand out, not wait back on mana to brainstorm. Ponder is good in Pox, Brainstorm is not. 2. Jace is unplayable in Pox. You need your Mana curve to top out at 3 to allow you to pox and waste at will. Jace would just sit dead in your hand. Also Force of Will is a sideboard card in b/u Pox, board out Innocent Blood board in Force of Will against fast combo.

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Originally Posted by Pittplayer

Brainstorm and Jace do not belong on Pox. 1. Pox wants to play it's hand out, not wait back on mana to brainstorm. Ponder is good in Pox, Brainstorm is not. 2. Jace is unplayable in Pox. You need your Mana curve to top out at 3 to allow you to pox and waste at will. Jace would just sit dead in your hand. Also Force of Will is a sideboard card in b/u Pox, board out Innocent Blood board in Force of Will against fast combo.

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It may have been Ponder, especially considering the lack of fetchlands. It didn't get much traction. Without fetchlands Brainstorm is definitely sub-par.

I think with Crucible of Worlds 4-drops, including Jace, are just fine in Pox. Nether Void, the Abyss, and Night of Soul's Betrayal all see play occasionally in Pox. Jace provides a win condition and all but eliminates your opponent top-decking out of your soft lock, which is a classic problem for Pox, or it can just feed you the best card in your top 3 every turn if you need gas. In theory it's incredible, but as you say in practice it wasn't performing. The mana rocks actually helped with stability slightly because Talismans don't get affected by Smallpox. I'm sure it would put up numbers if it was indeed good. There was nowhere near enough blue to enable Forces IIRC.

I think aslidsiksoraksi was the last to post about UB pox. I don't recall what ever happened with it, but I haven't seen anyone else post about it around here.

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Originally Posted by ronco

I think aslidsiksoraksi was the last to post about UB pox. I don't recall what ever happened with it, but I haven't seen anyone else post about it around here.

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Thanks, that's the username I couldn't remember.

JVP is the best reason to splash U in this deck

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

It may have been Ponder, especially considering the lack of fetchlands. It didn't get much traction. Without fetchlands Brainstorm is definitely sub-par.

I think with Crucible of Worlds 4-drops, including Jace, are just fine in Pox. Nether Void, the Abyss, and Night of Soul's Betrayal all see play occasionally in Pox. Jace provides a win condition and all but eliminates your opponent top-decking out of your soft lock, which is a classic problem for Pox, or it can just feed you the best card in your top 3 every turn if you need gas. In theory it's incredible, but as you say in practice it wasn't performing. The mana rocks actually helped with stability slightly because Talismans don't get affected by Smallpox. I'm sure it would put up numbers if it was indeed good. There was nowhere near enough blue to enable Forces IIRC.

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I did say I was running Bloodghast in my b/u deck so obviously I would be running fetches. And I have never seen a 4 drop heavy pox deck work. But most people play Pox as a slow control deck. I play it as a tempo deck. I'm getting beats in quick and taking advantage of the disruption, while everyone else tries to hard lock the game with their slow pox decks. I just have a different playstyle then most pox players. And i have been brewing and playing Pox since Time Spiral, I have played all variations and styles. My b/u list may be the best one I have played so far. Today I played a mini tourney. I went 2-0 vs High Tide, 2-0 vs Delver, 0-2 vs Dredge, and 2-1 vs Land Tax Parfait.