Does anyone have suggestions for sideboard cards to beat the mirror? I know that REB, Clique and Jace are good, but is there is sort of narrow effect that would provide a huge advantage?
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Does anyone have suggestions for sideboard cards to beat the mirror? I know that REB, Clique and Jace are good, but is there is sort of narrow effect that would provide a huge advantage?
Seeing as everyone seems to be on that Mentor tip, play a Moat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihilis
Thanks for posting, congratulations man!
It seems Gideon and Cavern pulled their weight, would you play them in the future?
Cavern of souls.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Lossett's Legend Miracles will dominate Miracles mirror of similar flavors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihilis
Firstly, congrats on the win!
Just wanna ask if you do encounter some problems with consistency with 2 ponders instead of 4 and how is cavern of souls treating you?
So we all know that Miracles is OP. Basicly there are three ways you lose with the deck;
1) You play poorly
2) You play against one of the few bad matchups
3) Your deck is not constructed in the most consistent way.
The last part touches the art of sideboarding but I will not focus on that for now. How do we construct the most consistent version of miracles?
First of all we can cut the situational ones like Spell Pierce and then some clunky ones like Council's Judgment. Most people allready did. Then we can either reduce or replace the number of wincons. Some allready did.
Next step is to reduce the loopsided elements and make the list tighter. For this we have to make some drastic changes to the core.
During the DTT era we did and a super linear deck referred to as "Canadian Miracles" evolved with just 20 lands and maindeck pyroblast.
DTT got the axe and now more fair decks popped up. Chalice of the Void, Ancestral Vision and Life from the Loam are all cards in the metagame because of how dominant miracles is. The mirror is also something that went from a fringe archetype 3 years ago to the number one deck (the most common deck on MTGO and probably soon enough irl, if it's not nerfed in time by Wizards).
How do we approach this expected metagame by reducing loopsided elements? The answer is to lower the curve and by doing so we can go from 23,22,21 to 20 lands once again.
How do we cast Entreat the angels you think? We don't. It's just gone. What do we play instead? Mentor? No, the answer is "nothing". How do we win? Let me explain.
If you avoid the 3 steps above AND play in a timely fashion you often don't need to actually "win" game 1. If your plan is to answer everything and establish a significant advantage your opponent will likely concede to the board and save time. If he don't you just need to play fast or aim for the 1-0-1 because your opponent is stupid.
It's all coming back to establishing a significant advantage while taking the least possible risk. With 1-2 Entreat the angels and 1-2 lands allready gone we also want to cut 1 Jace, tms. The holy cow of miracles is less needed for a few reasons:
1) we don't need to rely so heavily on setting up ETA
2) we want to avoid clunky 4drops in our openers.
3) we rather make sure Jace resolve and survive when we cast him rather than just jam bombs until something sticks (much more risks involved at a higher mana cost).
So from the slots we got by removing 2 ETA, 2 Lands and 1 Jace we need spells to establish "a significant advantage while taking the least possible risk". The best, most manaefficient and "unconditional", answers we can chose from (not allready played in playsets) are Counterspell and Spell Snare (and in some metagames, pyroblast/reb). My list feature 2 of each.
So how will counterspells help with consistency? What If I draw them when I am facing a lethal Tarmogoyf? Again we have to go back and look at the cards we replaced. You still risk that something to slip through your wall of instants but it's less likely for several reasons. You don't tap out, your curve is generally lower and you have more cards that can answer their card.
The key, the glue and the savior to how it all comes together is the card Predict. This has been on and off in my list since I picked the deck up in 2009 and with the approach above it's a perfect match.
The more instants you have the more options you get and when your opponent stumbles you just cast Ancestral Recall. It's "almost" that good because not only will you get pure CA but getting rid of a Terminus vs Storm or a Force of will when Gaddock Teeg is in play counts for almost a card aswell. It's extremly easy to set up between Counterbalance, Jace, Top, Brainstorm, Ponder and Snapcaster you will almost allways know the top card. Then there's additional "reveal" off of opposing Delvers, Counterbalances, tutors etc.
2 Predict compensates more than enough for the Jace I cut. I will stick out my neck and say that I think Predict is actually BETTER than Jace in most blue matchups.
For the final slots I want to maximize our instants and how better than with a full set of snapcaster mage? Snapcaster has allways been one of the key cards in miracles but the problem is allways to have enough targets. I ran one in the sideboard for a long time just because most of the goodies where there (reb, flusterstorm etc). The card is just lacking in game 1 against decks where flashbacking swords to plowshares is not an option. Here we have additional copies of Counterspell, Spell Snare and Predict rather than Jace, lands and Entreat the angels. Vendilion Clique is also an option.
Some notes about sideboarding before I show the list.
With ETA out of the picture as a way to beat the "fair" decks we need something else. Re-Introducing Blood Moon. Instead of going over the top we just take the pace down to our comfort zone of "do nothing".
The rest of the sideboard is pretty stock with snapcaster and efficient spells in mind. I play the stoneforge package as it's a very manaefficient way to defend yourself (unlike mentor which require a more heavy investment) and as a way to win fast if you for some reason lost the first game. This package is more of "Terminus 5-7" than anything else.
So far the deck has performed VERY well on MTGO vs very good opponents with very good decks but it's far from finished. Please let me know what you think of the approach and how to improve it.
Predictable Miracles
CREATURES (4)
4 Snapcaster Mage
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Counterbalance
SORCERIES (8)
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
INSTANTS (18)
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Predict
PLANESWALKERS (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
ARTIFACTS (4)
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (20)
1 Mountain
4 Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Blood Moon
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
2 Wear // Tear
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Containment Priest
Yes. A couple things I am on the fence about - a) the 2-0 / 1-0-1 mentality, b) only 2 red sourcesQuote:
Originally Posted by Mackan
Long short short, you're maxing out cantrips. I get it. It's Ein's school of thoughts, if you can max out cantrips, run minimal number of lands, than have 1 or 2 win condition, you would do it. It has an Omni-tell flavor to it. However, there're several issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackan
1. The ceiling is so low
Let's say you're on predictable miracles,
your opponent goes first.
turn 1 opponent: land SDT.
now it's your turn 1, you play your land, but you want to keep your land up because you know it's a mirror, you want to use the brainstorm/spell snare in your hand in case....
turn 2 opponent: land CB.
now you either play snare or brainstorm, hoping to hit a FoW. You do either, the miracles opponent counters back. Opponent's CB resolves.
You're now on almost-concede mode. Your only out is the abnormally low Jace count, and there is no reliable way of resolving Jace in the most fortunate circumstance. Above scenario is to demonstrate how low the ceiling is when you run a setup such as this predictable miracles. You have no Karakas-Clique, no Cavern, you just sit there and consider maybe you should concede to save time.
2. Is the CA generated by Snapcaster good enough against Shardless BUG
Without any decent payoff cards, your Snapcaster flashing back a cantrip into more cantrip/stp still won't deal with Tarpit, Goyf, Suspended Vision, Planeswalker(s). It's not even close to a catch-all solution against any combinations of the angles of attack from the Shardless side. Best case scenario you flash-back a Red blast effect to stop a vision and then maybe get to take Liliana down 2 loyalty counter before Snapcaster dies, then what? How do you win from there? Remember CB is not reliable in this MU.
I have to admit, I've been through this stage also. This cantrip into cantrip into sculpting your hand is great for preparing one big turn to combo off, that's what Omni-tell does, that's All Omni-tell did. In this case, your pay off is just assembling a CB-T, or playing a Jace and be able to protect it. I don't see much to gain by approaching Miracles this way.
I agree with your choices and I would play something similar. My comments :Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackan
. I think you need a second volcanic island, just to be able to fetch U/R 2 times in a game (especially postboard vs Miracle)
. I tested spell snare just after the dig ban in daze Miracle and it didn't perform well for me. Against chalice, it won't work on the play since you have 4 top/4 ponder and won't be able to foreseen T1 chalice. On the draw, it will already be too late. For later chalices, you'll have counterspells already. But like you, I hate council judgment (3 mana sorcery). Without maindeck mentor/entreat, you'll also have problems answering lilis though. With maindeck mountain (that i love), I would suggest -2 snare +1 reb +1 something. I hope that judgment is not a necessary evil (I like cunning wish, but it is too expensive) - A threat like mentor might have the best shot at winning a game vs unanswered T1 Chalice / unanswered Lili.
. I think that the 2 sb moon are really important with only 1 MD plains to be able to beat Lands. This advocates for MD Clique that allows to get rid of Krosan grip before casting moon. I don't know about your sb plans against shardless. I personnally hate to board in moon when it isn't necessary - that's why I'm suggesting 1 Maindeck entreat, with second white source to fetch the one time you cast it.
To sum it up, I would suggest MD:
-1 snap -2 snare -1 island
+1 pyroblast +1 volc +1 entreat +1 vendilion clique/mentor
Depending on meta, I would also consider -1 stp +1 reb md and -1 reb +1 pyroclasm sb, which could lead to -sfm +mentor sb (but not necessarily).
RE 1. So youre saying the reason to not play this deck is if your opponent in the mirror has the nut draw vs you when on the play?Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
RE 2. I suspect you've played a lot of Miracles, and I'm actually really surprised that you're not giving Snapcaster more credit. That being said, I will agree that Shardless is tricky to beat with just 4 Snapcaster and 2 JTMS. That being said, Snapcaster is still really really fucking good.
I don't get why people shave entreats when its currently better than ever.
Admittedly Mackan may have to expand more on this decision (and will do a better job explaining), but the general idea is that Entreat is just too clunky. In this fashion of Miracles, similar to Canadian Miracles, the idea is to lower the curve to produce a hyperefficient deck. Entreat does not resonate with that plan too well. The game plan of Snapcaster beats is a lot more fragile than making a bunch of angels in the sense that Snapcaster dies quite easily; however, your game plan with this deck (and honestly, any variant of Miralces) from the get-go is not "make a bunch of lethal angels", but moreso to establish "control" (which Mackan is arguing to be a win condition itself - a premise that could and should be discussed more in-depth I imagine). Snapcaster does this much better at most stages in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean
EDIT: I can also see sideboarded copies of Entreat for the matchups where Snapcaster beats aren't enough (ex. Jund/Aggro Loam), though not having Plains x2 is kinda wonky.
Fundamentally, it's the difference in philosophies, as in, there is no right and wrong on this. I admit that this consistency route in many MUs would enable you to make all the necessary land drops. However, the cards itself, the individual cards, they are weak by itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnziD
Think this way, your win conditions in this setup are JtMS and Snapcasters. How likely are these cards get you the victories? I suspect JtMS would make it happen more often than Snapcater. Now why would I say JtMS, obviously because the individual power level of that card is higher.
The same thing goes back to Snapcaster vs. Clique. I have a love-hate relationship with Snapcaster. It's a necessary card in Miracles, even the SCG commentators have mentioned that Miracles have little ways to generate CA; yet CB-T is virtual CA. Snapcaster is the best way and probably the few way to generate such CA. However, Snapcaster can't trade a 3/3 mongoose and cannot block a flying Delver, yet those 3/2 and 3/3 are just... popular, at least in my local area. If we are referring to individual strength of the card, I've won more games with just Clique alone, rarely Snapcaster would get me there. When it comes to MU against unfair decks, the ability to Clique opponent's hand is so much more important than say... flashback a red blast.
In conclusion, if someone asks me which card to buy first in order to complete his Miracles, snapcaster or clique? I would answer snapcaster without much thoughts. However, I would also mention that Snapcaster would enable you to Not lose, but to win the game, you probably still want Clique somewhere in your 75.
*off-topic*
Such a pitty it never really worked out. These lists were insane! Atleast they looked like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnziD
Testing list - GP Lille - #7
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Dig Through Time
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Polluted Delta
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 4 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 2 Batterskull
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
Greetings
I wanted to try something new so I did some testing with this list. I like the idea of having cavern and using more creatures to shake things up and keep my opponent off guard. During testing I lost 2 games from flood. Did you find you had this problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihilis
That actually looks quite bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
I've been playing mort's list for the last few weeks, with some minor adjustments/having it evolved a little.
The list have been incredibly strong for me, basically as strong as before Miracles was the de-facto best deck and everyone trying to beat us.
Played 6 rounds in our stores weekly legacy Tuesday yesterday to a 5-1 finish, losing the first round to Infect. I went to terminus, and he had 3 pieces of interaction (Spell pierce, Daze and Force of Will). Didn't see any other white cards, in both games, which meant I lost that match.
Beat:
UB Sinkhole kitchentable.dec (2-0) with hypnotics, rancid rains, goodstuff from when I played kitchen magic myself. CB/Top proved why you don't lose to random cards.
Death&Taxes (2-1):
Game 1 he missplayed by not flickering my fetchland in response to my top-activation, so I got a 3 for 1 there, and quickly assembled CB/Top+Jace and won the game on the back of that.
-2 Jace, -2 Counterspell, -2 Ponder, +1 Engineered Explosives, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Izzet Staticaster, +2 Wear // Tear, +1 Containment Priest
G2 he curved T1 Vial, T2 port + Mom, T3 Wasteland + Port my land + Thalia, t4 Needle on my Explosives + Wryn Nightmare. I was never really in that game.
G3 I got to set up a terminus, which got rid of Mom, Thalia, Wryn nightmare. Assembled CB+Top, and he never resolved anything else. Had the force for his cataclysm.
Elves (2-0):
Terminus did it's job in G1. Stabilized on 4 live, and Jace won the game (through snapcaster beats).
-2 jace, -2 Counterspell, +2 Wear // Tear, +1 Engineered Explosives, +1 Izzet Staticaster.
G2 was a grindfest, where he had 2 arbor elves that keep on coming back. Eventually I got to block one of them with Snapcaster, where the brainstorm it flashed back found CB + Staticaster. Was pretty easy to win afterwards.
MUD (2-0):
He always plays MUD, and he's the Big Mana-Mud, with cloudposts, but no wastelands and ports and stuff.
He didn't have Chalice on 1, and I got to set it up so I turn 2 got rid of a metalwork + Forgemaster. Turn 3 I played a mentor, with a force in hand, and played top the turn after. I won two turns afterwards, with Jace bouncing Steel hellkite twice.
-4 Counterbalance, +2 Wear // Tear, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Vendilion Clique
Game 2, He played a lot of ramp in the first few turns, which meant, in his turn 4, I flashed in a clique in his drawstep - he drew a blightsteel, he was 3 mana from casting. He got to keep that, I had swords (he had a chalice), Wear // Tear, Council's Judgement. Clique beats basically won the game, with me killing a wurmcoil (Judgement) and Battlesphere (Wear//Tear). His own Ancient Tomb helped me kill him, though.
Mirror (2-0):
Game 1: I had turn 1 top of Tundra. He had t1 top of plains. I had turn 2 CB. he had force, so did I. I countered some of his spells, he resolved a mentor, but I had the terminus right away. He conceded pretty fast.
-3 Swords, -3 Terminus, -1 Plains, -1 Council's Judgement. +3 REB, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Vendilion Clique, +2 Wear//Tear.
The game was pretty durdly, we both counterspelled Vendilion Cliques, but I slammed a mentor on t5, with neither of us having a top (he forced (pitching force) my turn 1 top). The turn after I played Counterbalance - with Force, Brainstorm, Snapcaster, Flusterstorm in hand - He counterspelled my Balance, to which I responded with brainstorm. He flusterstormed my brainstorm, I forced his Counterspell (Targetting my balance), he flusterstormed my force, to stop balance, but I flusterstormed his flusterstorm, targetting my flusterstorm. It basically meant I had a balance, 4 monks and a mentor. I revealed a ponder to his brainstorm, and won the turn after with two triggers.
My list is:
- 4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Jace, the mind sculptor
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Council's Judgement
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Vencilion Clique
Board:
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Blood Moon
1 Rest in Peace
2 Wear //Tear
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Containment Priest
1 Entreat the Angels
I have been really happy with this list for the last long time, and I don't expect to change anything, unless something drastic happens (banning of xx, unbanning of yy).
If you cut 2 Snapcaster for 2 Mentor, do you seriously doubt the win percentage for the deck jumps significantly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackan
Sorry for the delay, but here are my replies:
@dsck (and partially mike1987):
CoS was insane. Just being able to resolve the creature you want (especialy Clique) against blue decks, most of all control and combo is such an amazing advantage to have.
Gideon was pretty good, he was there mainly against the many midrange decks that usually plague the meta, and he didn't dissapoint in those matchups. You should try him against Shardless, really shines in that matchup. Not sure if I would bring him to a less midrange and more open meta though (e.g. for GP Prague).
@mike1987:
I've tried 4 ponders several times, but I feel it too often cantrips into more cantrips instead of actual cards. The maindeck is tight as is, so it's a difficult choice what to cut. This is just my preferred playstyle though. I don't feel it changes the constistency all that much, as I feel with the core of 4 Top and 4 BS the deck is pretty consistent as is, the ponders just help smooth things out.
@Misersoneof:
Don't feel like this list floods out any more than others in perticular, but it's unfortunately something that happens from time to time. I feel that the deck in general has pretty good control over the amount of lands it draws, and with so many fetches and brainstorm effects it might be wise to keep a few behind to turn into better cards. I often side out lands (I'm looking at you Plains) out in Control/Combo matchups, so that reduces the amount in the matchups where you least need them.
I get a lot of questions regarding the lack of an actual "win-con" and it's true that Jace, Mentor or Entreat the angels are all better at closing games than snapcaster mage. What some people fail to realize is that on average this version of the deck will not only have more cards but on average also of a higher quality. If we assume an empty board (that the consistency of our deck helped us to), 4 lands on our side and with us with a SDT in play. Our opponent cast a Delver of Secrets with 4 cards in hand and 1 untapped land. For a traditional build of miracles this situation is still fine but just to give you an idea of the differences could play out;
1) "traditional" hand is 1 land, 1 jace, 1 counterspell. You counterspell Delver, play your fifth land to avoid Daze and cast Jace into Force of will. Your top 3 are land, Force of will and Jace. So you decide to just try to cast Jace again next turn.
2) "predictable" hand is snapcaster mage, spell snare, jace. You cast eot snapcaster mage for brainstorm and look at the top3 which is now predict, spell snare and jace. Your hand is land, counterspell and swords to plowshares.
Instead of going for Jace you take another turn "off" by neutralizing the board and cast Swords on the Delver. Opponent cast a Gurmag Angler next turn and you cast Predict in response. Here's the sweet part about the deck. Either your opponent answers Predict and let you cast Jace or you cast Predict to draw into an answer to their answer to Jace. Even though you run only 20 lands you have the mana advantage because you force interaction, by casting your threaths, during their turn. What's even better, just take another turn not casting jace and set up a snapcaster+predict to draw into even more answers. Once Jace or cb/top enters the battlefield you will have more answers in hand than they have cards. At which point Snapcaster is just a free 2 mana cycler. It'll take a few turns to end the game but by each turn Snapcaster mage is attacking your hand size increases and your opponent will sink in his chair.
It's very hard to compare two cards in magic but comparing two gameplans is even harder. With the above example I hope to bring some light to the subject. I am not saying this version is strictly better and I know there are other faults but for now I will continue to develop this as it fits my playstyle more than medium-risk/high-payoff cards. If you want to be harsh you can say I prefer low-risk/minimal-payoff because I think that this minimal advantages are often better than medium risk, no matter what the payoff is. Atleast this is true for miracles which has such an insane suite of answers.
The main problem I see with your list, isn't the lack of win conditions. Your list is stronger in a "set" metagame - You meet the typical legacy decks, which likely means it's stronger on MODO than at a GP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackan
What I see as a main problem is that your list is actually worse against the overall bad matchups Miracles can face, and sometimes will face - MUD, Sneak&Show. You are also severely weaker against Death and Taxes, which is also pretty common. In general, non-blue decks where it isn't as much about card density but about card quality.
This is very true. The bad matchups gets even worse without Entreat the Angels or Mentor. This is why tuning the sideboard is so important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
For now I have been happy with Blood moon as a way to adress decks with Chalice of the void including aggroloam, mud, tezzerator aswell as 12post.
Sneak and show is allways a problem because of the extremly high power (at the cost of consistency) they might have. Sometimes the just brute force you and there's nothing you can do. Pithing needle for Sneak attack or another priest are cards to consider if there's a lot of Sneak.
DnT is allready favored and I don't think the changes to the deck really makes any big difference. Time is an issue but the SFM package compensates for that... Batterskull paired with an endless stream of swords to plowshares is good enough.
What I currently miss is a catch-all like Council's Judgment or Engineered Explosives but neither is optimal due to the casting cost of CJ or not beeing a snapcaster target like EE. For now I side in 1 or 2 wear/tear in the dark to deal with sylvan library or null rod. But I am not super happy with this.
Spell snare is not at best in miracle, even with 4 snapcaster. It's mainly there for CB, Chalice, Library, (and Snap, Counterspell in the mirror). And only before CB. After, CB, you'd better have a Counterspell or a reb to answer out of Curve threats. Reb does a better job imo because, as well as answering these cards in the mirror, you have an out to Jace, and answers to Tnn, Show and tell. Against chalice I ve already explained why it was bad.
It's good vs Library since it is sometimes played with daze.
Against creatures, you already have 7-8 removals ; against storm, I personally find it overkill (with 3 flusterstorm sb) ; against Tourach, you already have Predict to compensate the CA loss.
In this deck, the only time you can gain tempo out of snare is on the draw T1, which, in my opinion, isn't really needed. I would play snare in grixis reactive lists since you also have tarmogoyf to deal with.
And as already said, the deck will be better vs delver decks but will have hard time vs unanswered early vial and cavern (d1t, goblins, merfolk), Cloudpost, Aggroloam, Jund, etc.. It's like improving already good MUs, Miracle and abandoning bad ones G1. You can't always bet on blood moon G2 vs fair decks ; any decent player will be prepared. And Blood moon is a 3 mana sorcery as well that can sometimes do nothing. Without Judgment, I strongly believe that you need more non Jace Threats G1.
Entreat sb is weird :).
I don't really maindeck Reb but I agree that you want something to flashback for 1 mana and I think Spell Snare is just the better choice. Even in the blue matchups it's still great (show and tell aside). It does a worse job killing delver of secrets than REB but I don't think you want to fetch a basic mountain with just a maindeck pyroblast anyways, and the whole idea of fetching duals (volcanic island) is the opposite of what I want to be doing vs delver strategies. The strenght of Spell Snare is that it's a tempo positive play in a not-so-tempo oriented deck. We often need this bump in the early stages of the game. Reb is also sometimes a tempo-positive play early but fetching for a basic mountain or a volcanic island (game1) is not ideal. Either you can't cast your spell or you are beeing wastelanded. The difference between having a spell snare or not on the draw vs DnT is huge. With a tempo positive play like Spell Snare and a manabase with preferably only basics it's very hard for them to win. I mean the difference is really game breaking, 20 lands or not. In matchups where you want Spell Snare early you often want to stop all of their future 2drops (like stoneforge mystic) so it's great since that it's not situational like a taxing counter like Spell Pierce. Other than that the options are slim for 1 mana interaction in blue. Envelop and Flusterstorm are ok but narrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephK
Even if you side Spell Snare out vs decks with chalice of the void it's atleast an answer to it. Same vs Elves where it stops gsz for 1 and elvish visionary. Then you have the suite of; thalia, phyrexian revoker, stoneforge mystic, hymn to tourach, tarmogoyf, dark confidant, painter's servant, young pyromancer, infernal tutor, burning wish, cabal ritual, qasali pridemage, sylvan library, serra avenger, eidolon of great revels, argothian enchantress and more, aswell as the blue targets that REB also stops including snapcaster mage, counterspell, counterbalance, standstill, lord of atlantis, predict (!) and baleful strix. Basicly trading the list of non-blue cards for show and tell, jace, force of will, ancestral vision and true-name nemesis. I don't think Delver is a real argument for including REB md. It's mostly for show and tell, shardless and miracles I would say. The floor is just so low of MD pyro in a few matchups and I think we allready struggle to get rid of bad cards game1 as it is. Predict helps but only so much. I agree that Spell Snare is better in grixis to deal with the otherwise troublesome goyf but in this deck where it's all about value you are still not OK plowing sfm, YP or baleful strix for example. Snare pitching to Fow is also a thing, even vs the fair decks since you can compensate for the card-disadvantage.
I mean it's not really fair to compare the card Pyroblast to the card spell snare because even though Pyroblast has a lot more potential it comes with the risk of beeing completly blank or stressing the manabase. I still have 3 in the board and I dare to say that most blue matchups are very favored (except maybe sneak attack like I wrote about earlier). I am even considering getting rid of Flusterstorm for something with a broader application.
You are right in that the maindeck is slightly skewed to what I would consider the "top decks" and I don't belive 2 Blood moons and a stoneforge package is enough to win vs all of the fair decks. I belive there's not much to be done to the maindeck without weakening the "plan" so I def. need to work on the sideboard some more. Do you have any suggestion besides playing another blood moon? A second plains and a pair of entreat the angels, perhaps. Or cavern+mentor alongside the stoneforge package and get rid of blood moon completly. A friend of mine suggested Meddling mage, maybe paired with vendilion clique, as a way to semi-lock our opponent in the matchups where Counterbalance is not enough (like jund, merfolk, goblins). Or we can have more bombs like Ajani Vengeant to supplement Blood Moon and tap their basic forest. Or any other planeswaler really... preferably one without double red or white in it's cost.
Another idea rathen than blood moon is to play 2 Wastelands with a Crucible or worlds. Not as backbreaking as blood moon but would allow us to not only fetch, but to have a continous stream of shuffle effects at no cost.
Keranos costs five which is a little to much but it's very metadependant. It's very hard to deal with for Shardless.
Maybe Jace, Vryn's Prodigy as a one of in the board? It's snapcaster five after all.
You'll excuse me if I cut a part of your post ; it's a matter of readability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackan
More seriously, I see your points.
. Snare, consistency
Certainly, snare answers cards, and you gave an almost exhaustive list of them, but, few cards aside (as already mentioned), you already have answers for those (you will find terminus if it's sfm, and you will find sword if it's teeg). You gave specific examples where the card wins game, but it doesn't bring consistency. Snare remains a conditional card that doesn't answer problems you have trouble with (any planeswalker here -no entreat, council, mentor for now in the list, only counterspells which, certainly, can sometimes be enough).
It's quite paradoxical : For consistency, you add a 4th snapcaster, then you feel you have to add 1 mana spells, ending up on snare, which leads us to : do you really need additional 1-mana spells to play a 4th snapcaster ? Or conversely, is the 4th snapcaster even an option ?
Isn't (especially this version of) Miracle consistent enough to allow 1-slots with high power levels ?
.Reb
I'd like to point out that it is weird to play a maindeck mountain knowing that you don't have any red spells to use it. If you don't play pyroblast MD (which I agree, is quite inconvenient versus Delver), I would consider moving it to the sideboard (keeping the 20 land count main).
.Sb strats
It's quite difficult to give my opinion on this. It requires to list the MUs and do some work, maybe we could go on via private message.
. I played 1 plains Miracle lists not so long ago and Lands was a difficult Match up (do you agree ?). Blood moon certainly helps here. Crucible looks ok but takes 3 slots and won't be strong enough vs loam + exploration
. Additional threats will help dealing with planeswalkers (snap isn't really reliable for this task), especially clique, and mentor (or sulfur elemental ? - basic mountain helps). Entreat won't effectively deal with them as it is hard to setup ; slots are expensive, I don't think we can afford to have it in the sideboard.
Well it needs more thinking. I would be glad to hear more about your testing.
A lot of interesting discussion these last pages. I agree with Snapcaster #4 being a valid option. I like Spell Snare a lot aswell. It's underplayed and I think it has potential as 2-off, I will test this a bit.
@Mackan- I would rather play 2-3 Monastery Mentor sideboard over Stoneforge Mystic+Batterskull.
It will carry so much in the grindy games and tier2-3 mu's..
I can see running 1 Spell Snare but 2? Most of the spells you'd want to be Snaring anyway are ones that can be handled by Spell Pierce instead. We don't care about Snapcasters or Goyfs or Bobs resolving. The only creature 2 drop that is really an issue is Thalia. In all other cases, Spell Pierce takes care of (an early) CotV and Sylvan Library and opposing CB. It can also hit troublesome enchantments that cost more (Choke, Pernicious Deed, maybe some other stuff) and Planeswalkers at early stages of the game. And by the time your opponent has mana to pay for their noncreature 2 drop being Pierced, you should have at least a hard counter in hand and/or a CB on the field.
@Consistency. Sure with all the search in the deck there's a high chance we can see that one-off when we dig... But what if we draw that one-off Council's Judgment when we don't want it? If you play maybe 10 games those one-offs will come in handy, even pre-board. Then if you play 100 games you'll see that we can't really count on finding Council's Judgment when we need it and that it will certainly show up at the wrong time more often. This is why we have brainstorm so no big deal (one might think). Then after 1000 games you realize that just because brainstorm is extremly good at getting rid the "wrong cads" doesn't mean that want to stress it even further. It doesn't mean that we do not allready have 2 cards in our hand that are not perfect and we want to put back in our deck. A random one-off maindeck vcard is to brainstorm what a generic blue card is to force of will. You will often get away with it but after a while you realize that the upside is not worth it. Don't stress the good cards!
The velocity of the deck is an important thing to keep in mind and finding a specific card is very useful. Just look at the sideboard. Those 2 Blood Moons are about as likely to see play by turn 3 as the full playset out of Goblin Stompy. I just like to keep these in the sideboard and focus on generic answers instead (Like Counterspell) for my preboard games.
@Spell Snare
So you say that just because the best removal spell in legacy allready deals with dark confidant we don't need any more answers? Remember you can only play 4 swords to plowshares and even if you could play more there's an upside in having a card that's not JUST an answer to creatures (see the list in previous post). Decks with creatures are not constructed the same way as miracles. We have about half as many removal spells as they have creatures. Timing is also important... If you swords to plowshares stoneforge mystic, dark confidant or thalia some turns after they hit play the damage is allready done.
@Mentor
This is a lot better than stoneforge mystic as a replacement for Entreat the angels but it's also a lot worse on defence (think thalia, delver, goblin guide, nimble mongoose). There is no simple answer to which one that is better, it's all about context. 3 mana is a lot more than 2 simply because on the play we can cast stoneforge turn3 and keep spell snare up for their 2drop then just keep Stoneforge at the ready until the coast is clear. With mentor we have two options. Either we tap out turn3 (and basicly sidestep our whole gameplan of instants) or we wait until we have enough mana to make dudes/defend mentor when cast (and again, sidestep our gameplan by spending more cards on lands than we want). In honestly for a lot of matchups where we want mentor we sideboard most of our counterspells/cb out. Both of these options are fine vs something like aggro-loam or 12post. It is however ALOT worse against tempo/burn/taxing decks.
Another thing to keep in mind when comparing Mentor to Stoneforge (or other win-cons/fair-deck-hosers) is how the rest of the deck is constructed. If you have 4 Snapcasters, 2 Blood Moon and 2 Vendilion Clique in a postboard game vs Shardless BUG you are maybe a bit clunky if you top that off with a pair of mentors. Then for this specific matchup Stoneforge is not the best 2drop in magic because of Discard and Liliana of the veil. Then we have the pressence of Pithing Needle on Sensei's Divining Top which makes Mentor a lot worse. The ceiling of a 2/2 for 3 and a 1/2 for 2 are about the same. Then a typical SFM package is a precious sideboard slot more.
So again, there's no simple answer and I think it comes down to personal playstyle and expected metagame. I like to keep my guard up more than most :-P
@Spell Pierce
This falls under the same category as one-offs I adressed in the beginning of this post. We do not pressure our opponent enough and a good player will often simply have the mana to pay for spell pierce when it matters.
We don't give a damn about SFM. If they draw 1 or 2 cards with Bob, it's not the end of the world. FWIW, the other day I played against a BUG variant that was using Bobs and I knew I could safely cast an ETA because he revealed 3 non-blue cards that I knew were still in his hand and only had 1 mystery spell. Like I said, Thalia is the only concern. However, she'll be Vialed in so often that your Spell Snare will just rot in your hand. Or she'll be casted through a CoS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackan
Yea, we play 4 STPs. We also play 3-4 Snaps and 3-4 Terminus. We also have 3-4 Ponders and 4 Brainstorms and 4 Tops to dig us to those creature removal spells.
My take on Mackan's Predictable Miracles. I didn't like having basic mountain with no red spells G1, I wanted to continue playing maindeck mentor, and the board now became a snapcaster mage playground, so we moved the 4th snapcaster to the board since after sideboarding we tend to clean up a lot of the inefficient cards. Will have more explanations if needed, but don't have a lot of time right now.
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Island
1 Plains
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Predict
1 Spell Snare/1 Pyroblast
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
SB:
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Pyroblast (or 1 pyroblast if you're playing 1 maindeck)
1 Red Elemental Blast (or 2 Red Elemental Blast if you're playing pyroblast maindeck)
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Wear//Tear
2 Flusterstorm
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Containment Priest
During last month i was playing Miracles deck with stable result of 3-1 (getting into the prize) in the 20+ players' tournaments. I'm satisfied with my deck, but i'm having trouble in beating mirrors and grixis delver (the most common deck in our metagame).
// maindeck
1 vendilion clique
3 snapcaster mage
2 monastery mentor
2 stoneforge mystic
1 batterskull
4 sensei's divining top
4 counterbalance
2 jace, the mind sculptor
4 force of will
1 counterspell
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 swords to plowshares
4 terminus
1 council's judgment
4 flooded strand
3 scalding tarn
2 arid mesa
2 tundra
1 volcanic island
1 karakas
5 island
2 plains
1 mountain
// total: 61 cards
// sideboard:
2 ethersworn canonist
2 surgical extraction
2 pyroblast
1 hydroblast
2 disenchant
1 envelop
1 venser, shaper savant
1 pithing needle
1 blood moon
2 pyroclasm
I have two questions:
1. What do you think about "small SFM package" (2 SFM + 1 Batterskull)? Is it actual in modern global metagame? SFM are pretty good versus shardless BUG + an additional angle of attack.
2. I'm thinking about change like this:
-2 SFM -1 Batterskull +1 monastery mentor +1 pyroblast +1 land.
So, my second question is what kind of land do you think to put into the deck: island / volcanic island / cavern of souls or something other?
-2 SFM, -1 Batterskull, -1 Mountain, -1 IslandQuote:
Originally Posted by mainactivenet
+1 Volcanic, +1 Counterspell, +1 Jace, +1 Tundra
Should also consider if you want to be on karakas with only 1 legendary creature (2 after board).
RE: SFM Package
I'd rather have SFM in a Delver heavy metagame than an extra pyroblast and a land. I get a lot of flack from my local for playing Stoneforge in Miracles, but I do it anyways because I've had good success with it. A few of my friends call it "Miracles on training wheels." Maybe they are right, because I do view SFM as a bridge to the late game. Also, people much better at Magic than me don't play it, so I'm probably doing something wrong. Regardless, these are a few notes I've picked up on.
A few benefits:
* Lifelink can be too much for certain decks' resources to effectively kill you on damage (Burn, sometimes Delver, etc).
* Improves match ups like BUG Shardless and an assortment of random decks you might not expect to see. SFM is such a "good stuff" type card, it makes up for weirdness you encounter against random crap.
* Cheaper deployment cost is useful in match ups where leaving up mana for instants or top activations is essential. Especially against Combo, it lets me present a clock sooner and limit their draw phases.
* Makes the attack plan a little more diverse and has helped win mirrors. Helps the deck be more proactive in general, too.
* The extra two drops offer a little higher probability against stuff, like Storm, where 2's are more critical to hit. The extra 5 drop has also been useful against FOW decks.
* Works OK with Terminus.
A few cons:
* Opportunity cost of the 3 cards (Snapcaster is probably the one I miss most, because of how potent the sideboard is for Snapcaster).
* 4/4 isn't the biggest creature in the format, so you'll have use your STP's more selectively.
* Wear/Tear is a thing.
My list for reference:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
---
3 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Containment Priest
2 Meddling Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Izzet Staticaster
Split finals of an 80 man tournament with Predictable Miracles.
R1 Shardless BUG WIN 2-0
R2 12post WIN 2-1
R3 Grixis Delver WIN 2-1
R4 Storm LOSS 0-2
R5 Burn WIN 2-1
R6 Storm WIN 2-0
R7 ID
T8 Miracles WIN 2-0
T4 DNT WIN 2-0
T2 ID
This deck is insane. EXTREMELY powerful in the mirror and BUG matchups. Also almost decked out a couple times. I think the only time I missed having extra win conditions was against 12post? I highly recommend this deck and will likely be streaming it once or twice this week.
Aside from the first 2 rounds, you played against generally favorable MUs anyway. I'd like to see how well the list does against the less-favorable ones that @Mackan described (4c Loam, Sneak Show, MUD). I can see it doing better against MUD, but not 4c Loam, and Sneak Show is a beating regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnziD
I wouldn't use the word favorable to describe the Burn and Storm matchups. Burn is all about finding CB and that's not necessarily guaranteed. Firecraft is also a huge huge problem and I want to go as far as saying it puts the matchup in their favor outside of really really bad draws. G1 vs Storm is a coin toss which depends on the kind of hand you keep (in the dark) and G2 is a lot closer to 50/50, depending on how both sides board. I also think DnT is an unfavorable matchup (which is debated by many) and that the only reason the mirror is favored here is because of this specific build. Also, I think having a stronger Shardless matchup is actually really relevant and deserves both attention and due credit - at least, it deserves way more than a matchup like MUD or 4C Loam.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
100% agree on the assessment of Burn MU, lately due to firecraft, it's been a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnziD
I don't even think Predict is the sole reason to have a higher win percentage against Shardless, if exists at all. Is it possible that the Shardless player(s) playing bad?
Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Not discounting the Shardless player, but I think you underestimate how backbreaking Predict actually is.
(Firecraft and Abrupt Decay are both screwed by Redirect)
Let's make an assumption: counters do not work anymore as before.
Vial and Cavern are staples, Boseiju is always seen in every meta.
We start to need to be able to deal with actual permanents instead of the stack.
Reb is fine
Terminus and StP are
CJ is great
I try to start playing 1 Wear/Tear MD
List?Quote:
Originally Posted by AnziD