This is a huge hit to us. I'm not giving up on the archetype but do not undervalue how good this card has been for us. It is an integral part of the deck.
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This is a huge hit to us. I'm not giving up on the archetype but do not undervalue how good this card has been for us. It is an integral part of the deck.
Link to stream would be great. I get off at 11 central.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
I was only able to play test for a few hours before work today with a few different cards. List I ended with: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/artist-by-trade/
I can see reasons for filling the 3 slots with the third Chandra, E tutor, and bridge (if like me and others you run one of each in the board) and opening up three more sideboard slots. I also do believe another land is recommended, possibly the last city of traitors or even another basic. I will be testing the two rack at least at fnm. I almost wonder if the looting should just be the third Chandra and open up a sideboard slot. Possibly a goblin rabblemaster now that terminus is less likely.
Last minute thought: I will run two scroll rack and the 3rd Chandra Friday. Freeing the sb slot for another card. Possibly Dualcaster mage as there is a lot of B/r reanimator in my area.
The problem with scroll rack is that we are a deck that frequently empties our hand. We don't want to have to hold back cards to improve scroll rack. We have no true draw engine to refill our hand in the late game either. Chandra doesn't actually draw a card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Russki
what cards do you recommend then?Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkfrosting
BLEAH!!!! STUPIDO!!!
what's ironic is that Miracles can probably function with scroll rack as a replacement better than any other deck that runs top (Granted, it's still terrible).
Back to the drawing board.
There isn't anything that can mimick Top's effect, Scroll Rack ain't even close in usefulness for reasons stated. Our options is to either run other cards that reduce varience (Tutor, Chandra, Filters), or just jam more threats to increase the chance to draw action. Chandra does both, but playing too many copies takes away from the explosiveness of the usual shortcake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Russki
I don't think Faithless is discussable at all, it's card disadvantage without the power-level of E.Tutor. Something similiar to Tormenting Voice is more like it, but still too bad. I think changes will be something like:
-3 Top
-1 Welder
+1 Chandra
+1 Bridge
+1 E.Tutor
+1 City of Traitors
But depending on how meta ends up the list could be different. Speculators say Deathrite Shaman will bountiful moving forward, so even 1-2 Phyrexian Revoker main again might be a thing.
Cards that improve consistency while still providing value. Chandra and magma jet are good examples. Perhaps it's time to look into other colors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Russki
I'd give ur build a chance. Transmute artifact and brainstorm/ponder along with a couple of trinket mages should do the work and my guess is that the meta will be infested with unfair decks like ant or high tide in the next months and the ability to play free counterspells like fow or mindbreak trap should be considered
I think that the UR version is hit even harder by this ban, they've historically been the more welder/top deck than us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciubulu
@Rest of the discussion
It sounds a lot like we're getting to the same conclusions where we're increasing consistency through Chandra, Tutors and more bridges to protect ourselves since we're slower. I think that the only other color that I can see moving to is black, the tutor effects are just too important now. I could also see a case for green since that gives us the combo of Painter/NO -> Some big idiot but that just sounds worse than reanimating or show and telling a griselbrand into play.
I think the Painter/NO -> Iona on green deck is probably a whole separate archetype. Green does give access to mirri's guile/sylvan library though, both worth considering. No shenanigans with welder but it does give us some level of consistency with fetches and recruiters.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
I am going to definitely focus on the R/B version more with welder and gamble/entomb. It does mean the bad daretti might see more play. U/R is also definitely an option as you can still play brainstorms and have welder/intuition shenanigans. I'm not sure I like enlightened tutor without top but at least it gets you the card you need. Also realize that elves, Storm, burn and other combo decks are going to get really popular again so build accordingly.
This is extremely close to the deck that I was running for a while now. I had 3 Tops, which have now been replaced by Gamble and an extra Welder.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
21 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Fetch Lands
1 Great Furnace
9 Mountain
17 Creatures
3 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Spellskite
22 Spells
4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Blood Moon
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Gamble
I have tested it a little bit, but as of right now its not far from what I had.
I am testing trinisphere in one of the spaces and LED in the other slot (obviously not at the same time). I only ran 2 SDTs and am running a sandbox version.
Could it be worth running a Kozilek's return in the main? I can foresee a lot of creature decks running around (especially elves)
One positive to all this for any blood moon archetype is that the resurgence of creature decks will likely make lands a very good deck in the new meta.
Also tempo/delver is definitely still going to keep combo in check. There are so many tools in their colors to beat storm. I doubt we'll see much of a resurgence of old combo archetypes. We will see a lot more creature decks, maybe ones that haven't existed for a while or have never been brewed because terminus was too strong. We will also see decks built to beat those decks.
Here is the list I have been playing for some time now:
1 Great Furnace
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Plateau
3 City of Traitors
4 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Lotus Petal
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Blood Moon
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Goblin Welder
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Phyrexian Revoker
Now that Top is gone :frown: I'm thinking I'll go up to the third Enlightened Tutor and possibly the third Red Elemental Blast. I have a Win a Lotus tournament to go to this Saturday so I'm gonna be doing a lot of testing to see if the deck can live on and be competitive without Top otherwise I may have to audible to something inferior with Brainstorm. Ew. Any ideas would be much appreciated!
@Kap'n Cook I look forward to the stream tonight I just hope the audio is a little better :wink:
Hmm... I kinda like scroll rack. I think for a combo deck like ours it's not horrible. Meh... Gets around chalice.
Think I'll be testing this out... But still researching options
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The main issue with scroll rack is that it doesn't work well with bridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish
I'm tempted to try a painter stompy list haha
Oh... That's very trueQuote:
Originally Posted by Valleysdai
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Without a way to refill your hand scroll rack is extremely bad. Playtest it if you must, but unless you jam 4 land tax into the deck it steeply loses value after the first couple turns in our deck.
If you go the mono red stompy route I highly encourage playtesting magma jet. It's always been a good card in our deck just outclassed by top
I was debating testing magma jet as well, true it doesn't draw but it can remove a threat and let us dig quite deep for 2 mana in red.Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkfrosting
Would sin prodder be worth testing or pia and Kiran nalaar.
Sin prodder enables us to damage our opponent, is a beater and allows us to draw through land flood quicker.
Pia and Kiran would allow us to be less linear, and if the opponent targets a key artifact with exile/bounce effects we can sac it in response and weld it back.
I know that they are high CMC but we can take the control/prison position and slow the games down while we either get our combo or burn face.