Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
I'm a proponent of Dark Petition, but I'll concede that (next to Preordain) it's likely the worst card in the deck—not a bad card, but worse than our Great Cards. I run Petition because I really don't like rocking up to a tournament with only four tutors, especially given that they can get Extracted or Surgeried because they're quads. Several pages back there was a debate over Grim Tutor versus Dark Petition, and though I can see the case for Grim, I really don't like it because it's rather inefficient. (N.B.: if you're not running Ad Nauseam and/or you're running Empty in your maindeck, Grim gets better, but I think Petition works better in AdN/Emty-less mainboards.)
I think Togores's business-light plan is a bit too ballsy for me, but I've been considering cutting back on high-costed cards after Worcester. Petition would be the first to go.
Has anybody been running Personal Tutor lately? I didn't get the chance to test it much, but I'm starting to look at it again as a low-cost alternative to Petition. I've also been considering Impulse and Peer through Depths, perhaps as substitutes for Preordain. Anyone tried those out lately/ever?
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Personal tutor and all the other cards are really bad.
Personal is -1 card and is a sorvery that only searches sorcerys. I rather play petition. And while you mention non petition decks being bad vs surgical (wich I think is a cornercase, more latter). Personal is much worse.
Peers not finding land, or led is also not good. Also costs to much mana and they will daze it every day (still better than lim duls, wich is also a -1). And impulse is ok. But paying 2 mana to see 1 more card than preordain or top while both of this cards are much more mana eficient is the worst. All t1 where you dont cast a spell are a waste. And with impulse much more. You really dont have to waste time in testing this cards :D
Also I have played for years 4 tutors only and when you squeeze the most out of your cantrips you never have a problem finding them. You play a total of 7+1 bussines (+1 being toa) and thats more than enought.
Also if you mention the problem vs surgical. How big are the options of getting into a scenatio where they discard your tutor, surgical it and you find your 1off petition in time wile not beein really lucky? Also you say you have trouble finding a 4x infernal so a 1x should be like a hell of a try.
On grim, while its better with emtpy and also g2 to search anti hate cards. I never liked the card. Not for the price but just because its WHITE BORDERED, and that sucks :D. And also the double lifeloss with pif hurts a lot. And there are to many games we end up winning at 3-4 life vs a DRS.
I cant blame anyone for running more tutors. Its fine, but I like to be able to play long games and I almost never need them. There are cornercase scenarios. But playing a card because its good in 1/10 (number totally radom) games dosnt seem right to me. I want to do every game the same and in the more straightforward way. We are a combo deck. So just rinse and repeat.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Togores
This brought a tear to my eyes. So beautiful watching a Storm player play through hate. Just beautiful.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Togores
Personal tutor and all the other cards are really bad. . . .
Thanks a lot for the input!
I agree that mathematically we're getting less of an advantage with Impulse and Peer. The two things that attracted me to them were that a) they don't get Chaliced straight out of the gate and b) they're instants, but I haven't playtested them in large part for the reasons you mentioned.
I had some trouble with Personal Tutor because we need another cantrip to actually make the card we've tutored "live," and that's why I'm not running Personal right now, either. Still interested to hear if there are conflicting opinions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Togores
Also I have played for years 4 tutors only and when you squeeze the most out of your cantrips you never have a problem finding them. You play a total of 7+1 bussines (+1 being toa) and thats more than enought.
Also if you mention the problem vs surgical. How big are the options of getting into a scenatio where they discard your tutor, surgical it and you find your 1off petition in time wile not beein really lucky? Also you say you have trouble finding a 4x infernal so a 1x should be like a hell of a try.
You're right; I phrased it a bit too strongly re: Surgical. Thanks for keeping me honest.
I've had a lot of trouble with cantrips, though—not because I don't know what I'm doing (though I'm sure I could improve), but because I keep finding them at inopportune times when I'm looking for something to close the game. Often, this happens when I've cast a Ponder or Brainstorm-fetch, and all I find are more cantrips, even after shuffling.
Are you running singletons Preordain and Top? I've been trying and trying to find something to fill one of those slots with more "bang for our buck," but I haven't settled on anything yet. I'm reeeeaaaally fishing here, but what about Scroll Rack?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Togores
On grim, while its better with emtpy and also g2 to search anti hate cards. I never liked the card. Not for the price but just because its WHITE BORDERED, and that sucks :D. And also the double lifeloss with pif hurts a lot. And there are to many games we end up winning at 3-4 life vs a DRS.
Agreed on all counts. I really don't like using tutors to find anything but business or mana because, even if we're taking out a hatebear or a Flusterstorm or something, we're often throwing away a turn. The same point was made in the TES thread: tutoring (or wishing) for anti-hate needs to give us a blowout, or it isn't worth the mana. Also (I've said it before, but I think it's worth repeating for readers) hitting Grim off of AdN is worse than hitting anything else in the deck except a second copy of PiF. There's also the price D:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Togores
I cant blame anyone for running more tutors. Its fine, but I like to be able to play long games and I almost never need them. There are cornercase scenarios. But playing a card because its good in 1/10 (number totally radom) games dosnt seem right to me. I want to do every game the same and in the more straightforward way.
That's a good point regarding long games. I guess I've always been a "jam it" kind of guy, even in games that go past turn seven, and oftentimes (every 3-4 rounds?) I find that having a tutor that doesn't require LED to go Demonic is a useful thing, especially if I've got an Infernal in hand as well (this is rarer than having no tutors, like you said, but it happens enough to mention). I prefer a fifth tutor over a second Tendrils in my maindeck, but I usually side out Petition against counter-heavy decks and burn. It's really good against non-blue decks.
I've had a little trouble finding business over time, and it was really bad at Worcester for me (that round when I found 1x Tendrils and nothing else). I'll admit that I need to practice more, but I keep feeling like I find no tutors/PiF/Tendrils more often than I find multiples.
I'm not trying to challenge your credentials (which are really impressive), but have you playtested Petition at all, or did you just reject the card when you first saw it? I'd be interested to hear how/why you thought it made the deck worse if you've tried it out in tournaments, not just the way it looks like it would work, if that makes sense. Again, I'm not trying to be snide or to call you out; I like hearing everyone's opinions, even if they're gut reactions. I totally understand if you looked at the card and said "nah" right away.
Incidentally, I just realized I'm really verbose in my posts. If I'm being annoying and/or an idiot, by all means let me know.
I appreciate your input a lot! Keep crushing it.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
1) personal tutor needint another cantrip is not so cool. Best card here is top. But if we are cantrip dependant why not just play doomsday (wich I have been playing at the last local events)? Also personal is not mistical. I remeber that when mistical was a card my sb was amazing. Just a lot of 1 off instant a sorcerys to fight every situation with 3 sdt in the deck. Also t1 top, t2 mistical into nauseam with ritual or led was like the best. But personal not being able to tutor nauseam is quite bad.
2a) thats the problem with cantrip deck, they give you lot of ways to decide your future but also happens a lot that you just cantrip into cantrip and thats a waste of time and mana. But thats also the way to compresa your deck with just good cards and not situational cards.
2b) I run a 1-1 split of top and preordain. I like 2 tops, but they are slow and this split is just there because from sideboarding reasons I sometimes like to taje out one or the other depending on the matchup. Also my sb is build like perfectly with exact bad cards that come out vs good cards in every matchup. Thats also the reason I need lot of time everytime I change my deck because every card I change makes me change all my sb plans and thats a work of lots of time to make everything fix perfectly.
3) I tested the grim fron time to time. Was good finding some cards. Also was good finding decay for balance. But never really liked it. Has almost the same problem as petition. It dosnt work really well with Led or multiple leds.
4a) Sometimes Its not your day and you cantrip a lot and never find a card. Thats just variance and also has happen to me a lot of times. Then other days you just play an event and kill everyone t1 like there is no tomorrow. Just keep playing.
4b) Im not the kind of slam it guy. I play really safe and never want to loose a game I could win if I wait. Just look up the finale of the gp where me waiting out was the key to this game. Even gor him to discard a counter just by not giving him a target before.
4c) I was really excites when pettition came out. Tested it when it was spoiler. Then in 1x and 2x. I just got floodes in bussines. Cryed everytime I had ritual + led + petition, cryed everytime my opp started with shaman (shaman hurts a lot, but with petition much more) and cryed everytime I drew petition and no cabal ritual (its the card you want) and that got worser facing a shaman. I ended up sidding it a lot. Its a good card to go fast. But it being your plan and just get desteroyed by rip. Wich is a fine card but if I would have a preordain to find an infernal instead of that 5cmc tutor. Eveything would be better.
4d) your fine at speaking. Im not good at english and sometime say thing in a manner it could seems cocky or so, but Im just trying to explain myself as good as possible.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Togores
Was not bad meaning from me. Just usualy I get this question a lot XD
ahahahah I saw your videos on twitch, it's easier to handle the storm count rather than the dark petition questions ahahahahaha
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Togores
Also I have played for years 4 tutors only and when you squeeze the most out of your cantrips you never have a problem finding them. You play a total of 7+1 bussines (+1 being toa) and thats more than enought.
To me it appears, that most people who struggle to find one of the ITs in a reasonable time, don't use their cantrips to find that particular card, but settle for DR/CR/LED in the first turns instead.
From a mathematical POV, its nonsense to cantrip for one of the 12 manaaccelerators, if you NEED to find a 4-off to combo. Over time, your hand will fill with mana naturally due to the decks mana/business distribution
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Yea but there are also matchups where you don't want business on hand on draw. It's sad loosing to single turn 1 discard. Heavy cantrip hands are best then.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fatal
Yea but there are also matchups where you don't want business on hand on draw. It's sad loosing to single turn 1 discard. Heavy cantrip hands are best then.
you're right, but against discard decks just keep the tutor/finisher floating on the top of your library thanks to sensei/ponder, and draw it when you are ready to go.
Can anyone explain me the meaning of 2 pif maindeck? I don't want to naturally draw it (unless I have a lot of rituals and the tutor), it's a card that usually I tutor for. Don't you think Empty deserves a place in the main instead of 1 pif?
like 1 nauseam, 1 tendrils, 1 pif, 1 empty. Also if pif is countered, you can cast if from the graveyard.......
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Morden
you're right, but against discard decks just keep the tutor/finisher floating on the top of your library thanks to sensei/ponder, and draw it when you are ready to go.
Can anyone explain me the meaning of 2 pif maindeck? I don't want to naturally draw it (unless I have a lot of rituals and the tutor), it's a card that usually I tutor for. Don't you think Empty deserves a place in the main instead of 1 pif?
like 1 nauseam, 1 tendrils, 1 pif, 1 empty. Also if pif is countered, you can cast if from the graveyard.......
You partly answered your own question. Unlike Dark Petition, PIF is "counter-proof" and creates cardadvantage midgame if you can flashback some discard, cantrips and stuff and it remains in the yard to combo off later. You can also just chain cantrips from your graveyard to grab the ToA/IT with just Rituals and PIF in hand
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Morden
you're right, but against discard decks just keep the tutor/finisher floating on the top of your library thanks to sensei/ponder, and draw it when you are ready to go.
Can anyone explain me the meaning of 2 pif maindeck? I don't want to naturally draw it (unless I have a lot of rituals and the tutor), it's a card that usually I tutor for. Don't you think Empty deserves a place in the main instead of 1 pif?
like 1 nauseam, 1 tendrils, 1 pif, 1 empty. Also if pif is countered, you can cast if from the graveyard.......
For a long time I underestimated the power of PiF-plus-cantrips. It's more hit-or-miss than a second Petition, but it finds business far more often than it fizzles. Also, if you draw into a hand of PiF, Tutor, and mana, you can weather at least one piece of countermagic, sometimes more if you've also got LED. Playing Tutor, breaking LED, and discarding Past in Flames often forks the opponent by presenting them with two "must-counter" cards at the same time. If they counter the Tutor, you just flashback PiF, mana, and the Tutor; if they don't counter the Tutor, often you'll have enough mana to tutor a discard spell to knock out their countermagic before flashing back PiF, mana, and Tutor for Tendrils.
I don't like Empty in the maindeck. It makes the deck a bit faster but noticeably less consistent, and tutoring for Ad Nauseam is usually a better choice, even if it costs 1 more. I used to use Empty a lot more than I do now; these days, I only bring it in against decks that don't run many threats and few (if any) boardwipes, like Eldrazi, Mav/D&T, and occasionally Delvers. It's also a much more vulnerable win-condition than Tendrils is.
Played back-to-back 3-rounders yesterday, going 3-0 and 1-2. Played Maverick, Show and Tell, and Shardless, then Dredge, Shardless, and Show and Tell. Lost to Shardless and S&T in the second tournament. Not a whole lot to report, but I tried out Chrome Mox in the main again, and it worked ok. Preferred it to a second Preordain, but also had to cast it once or twice with no imprint. I also brought in two Dazes in the sideboard, but they didn't show against Mav and my opponents built up mana to pay it off in the matches against Shardless and S&T. Perhaps not ideal matches to use it, but I wanted to get a feel for the thing, and I haven't really 'boarded much (if anything) against S&T and Shardless in some time.
[EDIT: Hymn to Tourach is really yucky. I got shredded by it in two games against Shardless. Another reason 2-PiF is my preferred build is that it's great against discard-heavy decks.]
[EDIT again: Ad Nauseam worked great in a game or two, but it came really close to failing for me in game 2 against Dredge. I went down to 3, finding rituals, Past in Flames, and LED, but I needed another initial mana source or LED to make red mana to flashback a tutor from my 'yard. Had to pass at three life on turn 1. It didn't end up being a problem because I had the business for the following turn, but if my opponent had gotten a luckier dredge or had been on Burn or Delver or something, things would've gone poorly.]
Fingers crossed we can get more double-tourneys at the Local in the future, or maybe x-proxy Vintage! (P9, Imperial Seal, and [maybe] Library notwithstanding, I've almost put together TPS! I'd love to talk strategy via PM if anyone's interested.)
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
I played the local Legacy FNM last week to 3-0, defeating Aggro Loam (despite an actually awful punt in G1 and his maindeck teegs/chalices), Shardless BUG, and Cloudpost.
@Morden, I don't do two Past in Flames in the main, but I have another in the board, and it really does help in matchups where the opponent has countermagic and we need to be more threat-dense; in one of my games against Shardless, I was able to win with Past in Flames through a Deathrite Shaman because I didn't have to tutor for the Past in Flames, and instead naturally drew it, freeing up the tutors I had for other business. Empty, by contrast, is good in very specific scenarios, but I think they're narrower than the natural-drawn Past in Flames scenarios, and I think most of the times that I'd want an Empty, especially game one, I'd sooner just Ad Nauseam (the main exception being six mana available versus seven on turn one or two).
I also like Dark Petition for many of the reasons mentioned by others, especially the increase in tutor density. I agree that it's not always perfect (sometimes it's too expensive up front, rarely we can miss on spell mastery, can't keep going from five life on an ad nauseam), but overall I have found that it's worth the slot. I play it and a Chrome Mox over a second preordain and top; I don't like the Preordain but do want a 13th cantrip, and top is awesome but feels slow sometimes (plus there's a ton of Eldrazi where I play; if there were more miracles or something maybe I'd switch back).
Also, everyone here already knows this, but the extra Tendrils in the board are great; it's surprising how few people expect you to have an extra one or two post-board. I was able to beat Cloudpost when he was floating a Flusterstorm on top with SDT because he saved it for my Tendrils rather than attacking one of my tutors. I cast the ToA, he flipped to Fluster because he'd die if he didn't, and then I tutored for the second ToA and got him, which he didn't expect.
Edit: I also have that "cantrip into more cantrips and lands" experience from time to time, but I just try to remind myself that most of the time, we get a good mix, and that Ponder finds the LED or Tutor you need to go off, and sometimes you Brainstorm your hand of Land, Ponder, Ponder, Preordain, Dark Ritual into LED, IT, Ponder, Dark Ritual, Land, and then fetch into the Ponder finding another Dark Ritual and just ranch them. It's harder to notice the times the Ponders get you that clutch business in a pinch because it just feels like "working as intended" rather than full of despair, but I think they tend to wash out in our favor. Part of what brought it home for me was trying to brew a twelve tutor list with a ton of rituals when DP came out, thinking "oh I'll just always tutor for what I need," but that deck was clunky as hell because you'd get hands with all tutors and no rituals or all rituals and no tutors, and just no way to fix it if you didn't have one of the brainstorms, not to mention managing to get the right number of lands in play.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
thanks guys for the suggestions, I will test over and over!
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Hi. I'm Manuel Gomez. I post few times in the source. In my point of view the best list is with 2 past in flames and without dark petition in main deck. The two best performances (Kay Sawatari top4 tokio and togores top1 in prague) played this configuration.
In my last big tournament my performance was 11/4 with the Caleb decklist (2 petition main) I won 4 Eldrazis but I lost vs 2 grixis delver, 1 lands and one mirror in the final round. Petition is good to go fast, but not optimal vs the blue tiers.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Hi, I am currently playing Rodrigo's list but, while I am now very confident vs Miracles with this set up, I really suffer Grixis Delver to the point of literally not knowing how the hell I can win this match up without an incredible starting hand.
They play so many cantrips that our attempt to destroy their hand are ridicolus, their creatures put so much pressure with such low mana investment required and their mana denial is incredible difficult to deal with without drawing multiple lands. Let alone when they have cabal therapy and a creature on board, in which case only flusterstorm can save the game basically. What is the right gameplan? Obviously, Ad Nasueam is not that good in this match up, but Pif is also sub optimal considering their side and drs.
I tried a single Carpet of Flower in side but the game vs Grixis are too fast to find it consistently and I am thinking of putting a second copy in replacement of the third Tendrils
Currently my side is +1 Carpet Flower +2 Flusterstorm +1 Empty the Warrens -1 Rain of Filth -1 Sensei -1 Ponder - 1 Cabal Ritual
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Exodus
I tried a single Carpet of Flower in side but the game vs Grixis are too fast to find it consistently and I am thinking of putting a second copy in replacement of the third Tendrils
Currently my side is +1 Carpet Flower +2 Flusterstorm +1 Empty the Warrens -1 Rain of Filth -1 Sensei -1 Ponder - 1 Cabal Ritual
while I'm not playing this particular list and my area isn't dense on the MU... but Carpet of Flowers is notoriously weak against DRS+Daze, Flusterstorm - what does it do really? it's passive and rather ineffective vs. CT which I suppose you're aiming at... I prefer just few AD if I'm not mistaken Rodrigo used to do similar thing ... I also keep 2 ToA, SDT and EtW but that's a different story
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sloshthedark
while I'm not playing this particular list and my area isn't dense on the MU... but Carpet of Flowers is notoriously weak against DRS+Daze, Flusterstorm - what does it do really? it's passive and rather ineffective vs. CT which I suppose you're aiming at... I prefer just few AD if I'm not mistaken Rodrigo used to do similar thing ... I also keep 2 ToA, SDT and EtW but that's a different story
Can you please share your side? How many AD do you exactly side in? Thank you in advice (anyway do you have 2 ToA main or do you add 1 ToA from side?)
Anyway yes, I side in Flusterstorm mainly to deal with CT but also because I find it good in general in this match up since it evades daze/pierce. Why do you find it bad in this match up? I mean it still our only answer to Probe+Cabal besides Brainstorm.
Carpet comes in as a simply upgrade of Rain which is imo really bad in this match up considering his land denial and his pressure. I think it's always been considered good vs grixis and I've seen many people using it in this match up. I don't agree with you on this point.
I don't keep SDT because I consider it too slow in this match up but I'll try to keep it and side in some decays.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Exodus
Can you please share your side? How many AD do you exactly side in? Thank you in advice (anyway do you have 2 ToA main or do you add 1 ToA from side?)
Anyway yes, I side in Flusterstorm mainly to deal with CT but also because I find it good in general in this match up since it evades daze/pierce. Why do you find it bad in this match up? I mean it still our only answer to Probe+Cabal besides Brainstorm.
Carpet comes in as a simply upgrade of Rain which is imo really bad in this match up considering his land denial and his pressure. I think it's always been considered good vs grixis and I've seen many people using it in this match up. I don't agree with you on this point.
I don't keep SDT because I consider it too slow in this match up but I'll try to keep it and side in some decays.
You side in Flusterstorm just for the CT which they can flashback anyways? Doesn't sound like a plan. Carpet is crap. Not only can your opponent work with two lands only, but can manipulate their landcount with Daze. Moreover your deck is already 40% mana and you wanna sideboard in even more mana?
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
I don't get it honestly. Yes, they can flashback CT but I still prefer not being double discarded over being single discarded. Considering their first CT can be blind, countering it makes the flashback much less consistent. I don't find other better plans to be honest vs cabal therapy, what's yours? And honestly I am still skeptical about your opinions on Carpet. It's always been considered good vs delver decks and I find it the most consistent card to pay daze and pierce vs a land denial deck that plays only islands, considering also that we add mana before they play their dazes (at least if they don't throw their dazes on our cantrips), and the most difficult part is starting the storm, not having enough mana at the end of the count.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Exodus
I don't get it honestly. Yes, they can flashback CT but I still prefer not being double discarded over being single discarded. Considering their first CT can be blind, countering it makes the flashback much less consistent. I don't find other better plans to be honest vs cabal therapy, what's yours? And honestly I am still skeptical about your opinions on Carpet. It's always been considered good vs delver decks and I find it the most consistent card to pay daze and pierce vs a land denial deck that plays only islands, considering also that we add mana before they play their dazes (at least if they don't throw their dazes on our cantrips), and the most difficult part is starting the storm, not having enough mana at the end of the count.
Just look at it from the following POV: if you counter the first CT, you are down a card anyways. An experienced caster of CT, will hit something most of the time even blind as they can read the gamestate and the related cards in hand of their opponent like the classic turn 2 brainstorm into a fetchland, so aiming blind, early therapies at Brainstorms often pay off. In general, you play against CT just like you do against Hymn: try to minimize the impact and let them discard unimportant, redundant stuff at best, which you can flashback later or don't care for and keep the important stuff floated on top of the deck.
Free yourself from that "always besn considered good" hivemind stuff. We had that lately with Dark Confidant as well. Don't point to Capet paying for Daze/Pierce, if you have to rely on it resolving against those cards and you having to fetch a green dual early against a deck with Wasteland. Don't just ignore the tradeoffs made. The most reliable way to pay for tempo counter and get around manadenial in general is dropping lands. A preordain finding a land has more value in the context of manadenial than Tropical into Carpet and hoping your opponent is stupid enough to play right into it the following turns. Carpet is a manastone most of the time which you have to expose your first land for.
