All B/R update speculation.

It's always interesting to see the discussion on Modern in Legacy-biased environments, and Legacy in modern-biased ones. It's almost humorous how the fanatics in both realms use the same arguments they've been using for years, even as the environments have evolved around them.

I was genuinely disappointed at the policy decisions outlined in the recent BnR regarding Eggs. It was easy to ice Top when the format was very new, but this has whiffs of the Shahrazad banning - something that effectively had no precedent since Ante was removed from the game. I really wish they had stated that they were banning something because the deck was too good, or too fast (turn wise) for the environment, instead of effectively removing the responsibility of players to be competent enough to play their decks within the game and event rules already defined in the Comp Rules and IPG.

Brainstorm shouldn't be banned because it requires skill, or because it is too good, or because it makes blue too strong, or because it's a Tuesday. It should be banned because it now appears in (easily) %80 of top lists as a 4-of.

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Originally Posted by Ellomdian

Brainstorm shouldn't be banned because it requires skill, or because it is too good, or because it makes blue too strong, or because it's a Tuesday. It should be banned because it now appears in (easily) %80 of top lists as a 4-of.

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Um.... False?

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Originally Posted by Ellomdian

Brainstorm shouldn't be banned because it requires skill, or because it is too good, or because it makes blue too strong, or because it's a Tuesday. It should be banned because it now appears in (easily) %80 of top lists as a 4-of.

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Let's ban Misty Rainforest?

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Let's ban Misty Rainforest?

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Nah, just ban all the original duals lands. That'll make for an interesting Legacy format where you run shocklands. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Nah, just ban all the original duals lands. That'll make for an interesting Legacy format where you run shocklands. :laugh:

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I actually want to see this, until I realized that Wastelands are legal as the mana base balancer.

Although I still wanna see how decks will look like without the original duals.

Another way to make Dual lands "a secondary option" is to have better utility lands. Fine examples would be Grove of the Burnwillows, Karakas, Horizon Canopy, and Wasteland.

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

I actually want to see this, until I realized that Wastelands are legal as the mana base balancer.

Although I still wanna see how decks will look like without the original duals.

Another way to make Dual lands "a secondary option" is to have better utility lands. Fine examples would be Grove of the Burnwillows, Karakas, Horizon Canopy, and Wasteland.

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Wasteland would destroy a shocks-and-fetches environment. "Fetch, take three" and "Fetch, land comes in tapped" are both pretty silly when your opponent drops Wasteland and uses it.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Wasteland would destroy a shocks-and-fetches environment. "Fetch, take three" and "Fetch, land comes in tapped" are both pretty silly when your opponent drops Wasteland and uses it.

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God I want this to happen so badly, if only to witness the dumbfounded look on each player's face when those scenarios occur...

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Wasteland would destroy a shocks-and-fetches environment. "Fetch, take three" and "Fetch, land comes in tapped" are both pretty silly when your opponent drops Wasteland and uses it.

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What if they introduced a Wasteland variant that would also cost 2 or 3 life to destroy the land into such an environment?

Would make Canadian Threshold a pretty funny deck. Imagine this:

Fetch, Shockland, cast Delver, down to 17
Force your play, down to 16
Untap, Wasteland you, down to 13.
Untap, Fetchland, Shockland, cast Goyf, down to 10 before you even managed to get a single attack in ^^

:eek:

The fun part is that you're dead next turn because you also took about 7-10 damage from your own lands, lol.

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Originally Posted by Barook

What if they introduced a Wasteland variant that would also cost 2 or 3 life to destroy the land into such an environment?

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Ghost Quarter is probably sufficiently powerful in such an environment. They could also make something like, "Destroy target nonbasic land, its control may gain 3 life" or something if they wanted a Wasteland-type card in the environment but did not want Wasteland specifically.

The best they could print now is probably a CipT wasteland, because people getting wasted T1 isn't "fun", and CipT could solve that elegantly enough.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

The best they could print now is probably a CipT wasteland, because people getting wasted T1 isn't "fun", and CipT could solve that elegantly enough.

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We won't see playable LD anytime soon as long as Maro reigns the design team - where Stone Rain is considered overpowered.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Wasteland would destroy a shocks-and-fetches environment. "Fetch, take three" and "Fetch, land comes in tapped" are both pretty silly when your opponent drops Wasteland and uses it.

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That would make aggro better and punish durdly decks and fragile four+ color decks.

Is that a bad thing?

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

That would make aggro better and punish durdly decks and fragile four+ color decks.

Is that a bad thing?

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I guess it depends on what kind of decks you like playing. Considering how much people on these boards bitch about aggro being a noob deck, I would think many Sourcers would consider it a bad change.

Durdly decks are the most fun decks to play though. I would definitely hate shock lands being the only fetchable duals in legacy. What if they had "Nice Lands" like instead of shocking yourself your opponent gains three if you want the land to come in untapped?

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Durdly decks are the most fun decks to play though. I would definitely hate shock lands being the only fetchable duals in legacy. What if they had "Nice Lands" like instead of shocking yourself your opponent gains three if you want the land to come in untapped?

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That seems lame. On the premise that a nice land doesn't increase your oponent's chance of winning, they instead hinder your ability to win, slightly, AND only if you plan to win through damage. Alternate wincons in durdle decks... that seems likely. Jtms doesn't care about life totals when he ultimates after you durdle for turns.

While I enjoy the duals, making the shocks the only legal targets isn't that bad an idea, in order to both increase the fairness and lower the barrier to entry on a cost basis. The shocks being the only legal duals in legacy is also lame.

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Originally Posted by ahg113

Alternate wincons in durdle decks... that seems likely. Jtms doesn't care about life totals when he ultimates after you durdle for turns.

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But Tendrils does. Grapeshot does. Empty the Warrens does. Goblin Charbelcher sometimes might. Stupid tempo decks that parley their efficient opening 7 into just enough advantage to get there would have some hard choices to make.

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Originally Posted by evanmartyr

But Tendrils does. Grapeshot does. Empty the Warrens does. Goblin Charbelcher sometimes might. Stupid tempo decks that parley their efficient opening 7 into just enough advantage to get there would have some hard choices to make.

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Yeah, and any aggro/swarm deck that rely on reach to win would be screwed hard time by this. Those lands would promote control/midrange, imho way too boring. There are lots of drawbacks that could make those lands moderately good without being too much so, like remove top 10 cards of library or remove a basic land from library (this doesn't look a big drawback, but it actually is for combo and 4+ color decks).

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Durdly decks are the most fun decks to play though. I would definitely hate shock lands being the only fetchable duals in legacy. What if they had "Nice Lands" like instead of shocking yourself your opponent gains three if you want the land to come in untapped?

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KAvU PREDATOR, the new goyf =]

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Originally Posted by evanmartyr

But Tendrils does. Grapeshot does. Empty the Warrens does. Goblin Charbelcher sometimes might. Stupid tempo decks that parley their efficient opening 7 into just enough advantage to get there would have some hard choices to make.

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For the heck of it- Tendrils can often pick the storm count, stopping at whatever is necessary. Grapeshot is more of a reach card than a kill card. EtW might be legit concerned, but then you consider all the alternate mana sources, petals, spirit guides, etc, and those sources don't increase life totals. Belcher... the player can stack their deck after activation, assuming their one land is in play. I hope you're playing [cards]Misinformation/[cards] or Thoughtscour so they don't draw and Belch again. That one land they play that hypotgetically put you at 23 won't be an incremental advantage for long.

And, although combo oriented, those are all typical wincons, damage related.