Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
misty rainforest
Hi, everyone. This is my first time post and I apologize to my poor English.
I always use miracles deck on little tournament but I can't win against RUG/BUG delver and Shardless BUG(or something deck like using Lilliana of the Vale.)
On this MU, how do I fight to them? And what is mention to the starting hand when using this deck?
You did not watch enough SCG stream coverage. go to http://www.mtgcoverage.com/ and look for Miracles' matches, a lot of them are against BUG Delver/Shardless. RUG's tricky, especially against decent RUG player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adryan
The Death and Taxes MU is very interesting and it's after the mirror the MU i enjoy and played the most (lost count after 500 games^^) The Miracle mirror is insanely skill intensive and the better player will almost always win the postboard games.
-) play all cards named "Counterspell" after SB in the MD. Of course they aren't really good all the time but even if the opponent has Aether Vial they are still better than Spell Pierce, Counterbalance etc. But if the opponent doesnt have a Aether Vial or we got to destroy it the card is really good because it creates a lot of tempo and it counters Cataclysm, a card you should be always aware of.
-) play the full set of Jace. From my experience Jace is the best threat postboard against Death and Taxes. Entreat the Angels is better preboard because apart from some akward board states f. ex. against a fully charged Jitte with Thalia & Karakas& Vial and you low on life there exist fewer answers to it. Postboard it's a lot different because DT has more answers f.ex Ratchet Bomb, Cataclysm etc. If the opponent doesnt have Aether Vial, Jace usefullness changes from decent to really good, because the Death and Taxes deck struggles to deploy threats while taxing your mana without Vial. This is all math, of course there are situation where Entreat the Angels will be better but the majority of time, due to many factors, Jace will be better than Entreat. Trust me.
Who gave you the idea that counterspell is good in the SB? What good is your counterspell if it cost 1UU and you're suffering from Port and Wasteland?
Are you serious about the Jace thing? Against a deck with full Ports and Wasteland, your Jace will cost 5 with Thalia on board. People keep saying fetch Basic, but a lot of your opening hands will force you to play the Duals, which play right into DnT's strength. In the SB game, DnT might actually Vial-in Spirit of Labyrinth in respond to Jace Brainstorm.
The most important part against DnT is not about these high CMC Jace or EtA. It's about the development of Lands. You have to be able to Wear//Tear or Disenchant properly will developing your Mana base at the same time. Why do you think Lossett have a Sulfur Elemental in his SB? This is the MU where Lossett's build becomes less effective than the others, since those Blasts are pretty useless. Other builds at least run 4 StP.
The Miracles mirror will always involve Jace and/or CB battle, focus your resource on that one.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
Well, not this way :)
First of all: Counterbalance is not good. It may have been useful for you in one or two games. But it's not a good card, in no way. Same goes for Counterspell. Having UU up to counter something isn't gonna happen. So we have 5 easy cuts, cause this cards suck. As you have realised Jace, the Mind Sculptor is bad too, and yeas I have won games with Jace too, but yet again - it's not good. That makes 8 cuts from the MB.
When looking at your sideboard we want for sure:
1 EE
1 RIP
1 E-Tutor
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Grafdiggers Cage
and because we cut the Jaces we can easily up the disruption count by adding
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
As you correctly assumed you want cheap cc1 Counterspells to deal with their early outlets, Pyroblast serves double-duty as it can also exile their bridges. Never cut Swords to Plowshares, and never think about cutting Snapcasters, just dont! :) Entreat the Angels is important too, as it serves as an kind-of-wrath but also as an useful finisher.
The MU tends to be very swingey. Back at GP Strasbourg I met Dredge twice in D2, I beat them both in G1 I believe, then I got nut-killed when they were on the plan and then in G3 I proceeded to kill them. Admittingly I played a RIP/Helm-version.. :D
Greetings
Haha, you see? I knew I did something wrong! I had to ask it! Never even thought about cutting Counterspell, and I wonder why.. Nice to hear that you like StP too! A lot of players told me that StP is the card to cut in this matchup, but I liked it so much that I told them that I will keep at least 2.. It never disappointed me either, so back to 4 seems logic. But Counterbalance, hmm.., it also stops Nature's Claim and co. Don't you think keeping 1 or 2 is OK? I also agree on Entreat. Although I kept only 1, it always served me well and made me wonder why I didn't play more. I just couldn't find the right cards to side out :O!
Btw my plan vs Sneaky Show is:
+1 Needle +1 Tutor +1 Wear//Tear +1 Pyroblast +1 ReB +2 Flusterstorm +1 Venser
-4 StP -2 Terminus -2 Entreat
I never liked cutting all 4 Terminus, but it looks like there is some more room with my sideboard (I cut Humility :wink:)! I only have to keep a lot of 'bad' cards vs OmniTell.. But I do believe I have enough power vs combo.
Thanks for all your help! This there is some nice discussion going on since GP Paris (Joe Lossett also contributes to this ofc!) :smile:! Can't wait for the new articles! I hope it will give some more confidence to play those 8 rounds with Miracles (got 2 byes), and that I won't make a last minute switch to Elves or Deathblade..
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
As strange as it might be, i kind of agree with Adrian. Jace is a key card in the matchup in the fact that it can win you games when things go right for you that is to say when they don't have Vials (or you have a disenchant, EE or Needle early) and you are able to establish a clean board state. In my testing, it happens more than you would think against a deck with Thalia, 4 Ports et 4 Wasteland.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shaka1333
As strange as it might be, i kind of agree with Adrian. Jace is a key card in the matchup in the fact that it can win you games when things go right for you that is to say when they don't have Vials (or you have a disenchant, EE or Needle early) and you are able to establish a clean board state. In my testing, it happens more than you would think against a deck with Thalia, 4 Ports et 4 Wasteland.
That makes little sense. How is Jace the "key card" when things go right for you, as you put it? If you are able to establish a clean board state, then the "key card" should be the timely enabling Terminus/Disenchant/EE, not Jace. Your eventual Win/Lock comes from your successful board swipe, not because of Jace. Once you've turned the corner using your key removal(s), Jace at that point in time is just a win condition, or something to further your lead by Brainstorming every turn. You could have easily follow up your key removal with a fair-size EtA instead of Jace, probably would achieve the same goal. In this MU, you win because:
1. Your timely removal gain you lots of CA and tempo.
2. Your Mana base was not taxed enough.
Let's say you fall behind, DnT has creatures (may be Thalia and/or Revoker) on board, maybe a Vial in play, and you don't have enough lands to escape Port to get to 4 or 5. How does Jace be that key savior to get you out of the problem? Isn't Jace just a dead card in your hand? In other words, by the time you can play Jace, if you are able to, aren't you winning already? Otherwise, Jace can't save you, Terminus can. You tell me, which one is more important?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I said a key card not the key card (which would mean the most important card). Sure you win more thanks to your removals and your stable manabase than with Jace but the scenarios were you can resolve quite safely and win thanks to the CA produced by Jace might actually come up more often than you think ... at least that's what i think and i don't seem to be alone to think this way.
Do you side out your Jaces against D&T ?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Maybe my english is not good enough, so it was maybe unclear what i said. I didn't say Jace is the bread and butter in this MU, I said it's a card that is decent and good when your opponent doesn't have Vial. Whithout Vial Death and Taxes struggles to play new threats WHILE taxing our mana. Then you play a removal spell and enter Jace mode ( Brainstorm till he's dead). I did win countless games with that. It's not a good way but it's a decent way which works a lot of the time. Just play more games, become more experienced then you will make the same conclusion. Neither Terminus nor many other removals will win you the game. Jace will do, because the longer he sticks the harder it gets to remove him.
Edit: I also didn't say that Counterspell is great in this MU. I said it's the majority of the time better than every Spell Pierce, Counterbalance etc. Of course if you have better cards like Sulfur Elemental etc. yes of course you don't cut them for Counterspell. Is my English so bad that this was not clear??
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I board about like this for Death and Taxes:
-2 FoW, -2 REB, -1 Counterbalance, -1 Jace
+2 Supreme Verdict, +1 Disenchant, +1 Entreat, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Venser
I leave in 3 Counterbalance because they are good when Vial is not active (either because they didn't draw one early enough or because we've Needled/Disenchanted/Vener'd it), which happens often enough. I leave in 2 FoW and a Counterspell almost purely for the purpose of stopping Cataclysm (depending on my hand, I might be tempted to FoW a t1 Vial). Jace isn't great in the matchup because of all their mana denial and the fact that you can't cast him instantly in response to Port triggers. That said... Jace is still the king on an empty board, and post-Terminus he is the best card you can play. Entreat and Terminus are the actual good cards of the matchup, so Jace helping to enable them deserves some merit.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
You keep Spell Pierce in Drza ?
How has been Venser for you in this matchup honestly ?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
What about (punishing) Jund? Do you side out Jace there? Or keep 1/2?
Jund
+1 Explosives +1 Needle +1 Relic +1 RiP +1 Blood Moon +1 Moat +1 Tutor +1 Wear//Tear +1 Venser +1 Entreat
-4 FoW -1 ReB -1 Pierce -2 Jace -2 Clique
I board like this with the list I posted (for now, Humility has become Moat and Cage is now Relic of Progenitus). Do I board too much? With Unexpectedly Absent, Venser, Explosives and Needle I have some ways to fight Liliana :laugh:! This is also a matchup where I don't use the 'dodge Decay and Charm' tactic. They can never remove all permanents =).
If I want to board all Blasts vs Delver decks (+ maybe Blood moon and Wear//Tear), which I have to with my list (I think), should I then seriously consider a basic mountain?
Ps. I keep 2x Jace vs Death and Taxes :smile:
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shaka1333
You keep Spell Pierce in Drza ?
Twndomn is for sure. They are so great and are never a dead draw. So many applications, countering T1 Vial, countering Cataclysm when the opponent doesn't have 6 mana and of course Batterskull. Really a great card with broad applications in this MU. Who needs Jace? Countering T1 Vial and Cataclysm with Spell Pierce is key.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shaka1333
You keep Spell Pierce in Drza ?
No, I don't run Spell Pierce for now. REB kind of took that slot for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shaka1333
How has been Venser for you in this matchup honestly ?
Pretty good. Oddly enough, many times our role against Death and Taxes takes on a tempo sort of feel, where we are just keeping them in check long enough to Entreat them for lethal. Venser is good against their equipment, good against their Revokers (EoT bounce your Revoker, now I can untap and Top, Jace, etc to find an answer for Revoker before he comes back down), you can bounce their Ports EoT to have more mana during your turn, among all the other silly things that Venser loves to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lans89
What about (punishing) Jund? Do you side out Jace there? Or keep 1/2?
Jund
+1 Explosives +1 Needle +1 Relic +1 RiP +1 Blood Moon +1 Moat +1 Tutor +1 Wear//Tear +1 Venser +1 Entreat
-4 FoW -1 ReB -1 Pierce -2 Jace -2 Clique
This is my board for Jund, I don't really make a distinction between Punishing and non-Punishing since they almost all run it (and at no real cost to them). If I played EE, I'd probably bring that in addition, but I think Supreme Verdict or Purge is just better given a choice.
-4 FoW, -2 REB, -1 Counterspell, -1 Snapcaster
+2 RIP, +2 Supreme Verdict, +1 Celestial Purge, +1 Disenchant, +1 Entreat, +1 Venser
Pretty straight forward, I don't like countermagic too much because of their discard; Snapcaster is the weakest of my creatures because of RIP; and then just a pile of removal and an extra Entreat. Liliana is annoying, but beatable, even after an ultimate. It is a grindy, topdeck oriented match; Sylvan Library is their best threat and Top is ours. Counterbalance (or just a huge Entreat) should come online before Punishing Fire gets too relevant and unless they draw Sylvan Library, they have no way to find Decays for all of our stuff. Trading a Jace with their Punishing Fire/Bolt in order to put a big Entreat back on top of the library is a fair trade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lans89
If I want to board all Blasts vs Delver decks (+ maybe Blood moon and Wear//Tear), which I have to with my list (I think), should I then seriously consider a basic mountain?
I usually board all my REBs in against Delver and I only play two Volcanics. It only hurts when you have an opening hand with Volcanic in it and have to send it out early, otherwise it isn't problematic to just sandbag your REBs/Volcanics until the mid or late game. Mountain or no Mountain, I prefer Disenchant because it is easier on our mana.
On a side note, I used to board in 2 Flusterstorms over the last 2 REBs for BUG Delver, but I think that with the increase of them SBing things like Vendillion Clique and Envelop that all 4 REBs is probably correct now.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
This is my board for Jund, I don't really make a distinction between Punishing and non-Punishing since they almost all run it (and at no real cost to them). If I played EE, I'd probably bring that in addition, but I think Supreme Verdict or Purge is just better given a choice.
-4 FoW, -2 REB, -1 Counterspell, -1 Snapcaster
+2 RIP, +2 Supreme Verdict, +1 Celestial Purge, +1 Disenchant, +1 Entreat, +1 Venser
Pretty straight forward, I don't like countermagic too much because of their discard; Snapcaster is the weakest of my creatures because of RIP; and then just a pile of removal and an extra Entreat. Liliana is annoying, but beatable, even after an ultimate. It is a grindy, topdeck oriented match; Sylvan Library is their best threat and Top is ours. Counterbalance (or just a huge Entreat) should come online before Punishing Fire gets too relevant and unless they draw Sylvan Library, they have no way to find Decays for all of our stuff. Trading a Jace with their Punishing Fire/Bolt in order to put a big Entreat back on top of the library is a fair trade.
I feel Jund is probably the only match up having both Snapcaster and RiP is correct. Having RiP is self explanatory. Snapcaster is for 3 reasons: 1. You can still put on pressure against Liliana. Even with RiP in play, flashing in Snapcaster might force Jund to play that PFire when he's still waiting for his Abrupt Decay. 2. You just need blockers. I'm willing to trade a Snapcaster against a Dark Confidant, even if RiP is in play. With BBE cascading, you simply need more blockers. 3. Since you run Celestial Purge, it's very possible for you to flashback it using Snapcaster, if you time it well to avoid DRS removing it. This could be helpful if you can't find RiP or RiP got blown up.
Overall, Snapcaster is simply too useful in lots of match-ups, including this one, regardless RiP's in or not.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I think you are totally right ;) but what about the Storm and the BUG matchups ?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I disagree about taking snapcaster out. Never do it. Its amazing in all the same matchups that RIP is amazing in. Dont worry about the possibility of removing your own GY.
I Have a 1-2 split of RIP/relic because I don't like bringing in RIP vs BUG. Their decays and charms basically do nothing until you cast RIP and then they just kill it. Relic, doesnt have that issue since it replaces itself.
I bring in RIP against GY combo (including ANT), Punising Jund, RUG delver (less outs to RIP than BUG), and stuff like nic fit or lands. I bring in relic against basically all those AND stuff like BUG, and decks with small amounts of GY shinanigans, where sometimes I want GY hate, sometimes just drawing a card is ok, so like esper with lingering souls, TES, etc.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
There's a few matchups where I don't mind leaving in Snapcaster and RIP, but they are mostly combo. Regardless, you might be right about Jund. I've been pretty dissatisfied with Counterbalance against Jund lately, so I might try leaving in Snapcaster and maybe bringing in a couple BEB instead. BEB is pretty narrow, but countering REBs and nuking Bloodbraid isn't the worst. Even countering a Punishing Fire at the right time can allow me to swing at Liliana. Anyways, I'll see how it goes, but either way, these slots are pretty weak.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
On RIP + Snapcaster. Let's put it simple. In all my years of playing this archetype, I have never boarded out Snapcaster Mages. Be it wrong or right, I just never did it.
By the way, my first article should go online tomorrow, next one to follow in about 2 weeks from now.
Greetings
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
By the way, my first article should go online tomorrow, next one to follow in about 2 weeks from now.
Greetings
arghh..., Ein should listen to this one. It's... mildly annoying.
http://www.eternalcentral.com/everyday-eternal-podcast-episode-19-a-noble-undertaking/
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
I thought the cast was great, I don't know what you're talking about. Philip has me on Facebook, he can hit me up whenever.
-Matt
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
I thought the cast was great, I don't know what you're talking about. Philip has me on Facebook, he can hit me up whenever.
-Matt
He's referring to Carsten calling his boarding plan against Team America terrible.... and y'all agreeing.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HammafistRoob
He's referring to Carsten calling his boarding plan against Team America terrible.... and y'all agreeing.
You're correct. I already raised my objection and reasoning on the podcast thread.
