[Deck] Imperial Painter

@erevans444
The problem with Gamble is that it's a bad card. In Painter, you'd go hellbent quite a bit, so Gamble is only usefu if you have an active Welder and an artifact in the field. Without SDT, Welder lost a lot more value, so it's not a card I more than two copies of in my 75. If I were to play a card that creates a card disadvantage, I'd rather splash white for E. Tutor. I think Magma Jet or Smuggler's Copter are better than Gamble since they have other utility. I would only play one copy of Smuggler's Copter at most though. I can see myself playing two Magma Jets. I might try something like this:

22 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
14 Mountain

16 Creatures
1 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Simian Spirit Guide

22 Spells
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Blood Moon
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

No reason to play fetch lands anymore. Just a much more streamlined build. Grindstones are pretty much useless in multiples now without SDT. May as well throw them with P&K. Up to 14 Mountains to be less affected by variance, which was partly mitigated by SDT.

Many years ago, I played Painter with Salvagers and without Top. Perhaps that version can make a comeback?

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Originally Posted by L10

@erevans444
The problem with Gamble is that it's a bad card. In Painter, you'd go hellbent quite a bit, so Gamble is only usefu if you have an active Welder and an artifact in the field. Without SDT, Welder lost a lot more value, so it's not a card I more than two copies of in my 75. If I were to play a card that creates a card disadvantage, I'd rather splash white for E. Tutor.

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I'm glad someone finally said it.

That said 4 bridges and 4 Chandra Main seems wrong? :really:

I think we've got to tailor our prison elements around the projected meta. Which I think is pretty shaken up and is the hardest part of deciding how to build this deck now. Do we even need to run bridges main, or will the field not include a high number of decks that require it?

My only thoughts are...

Moon Effects should be stronger.... so I think Magus of the Moon might be better positioned. (depending on Lighting Bolt Counts.)

Small Creature Decks should be better, so maybe Goblins / Merfolk / Elves (definitely Elves) become more common.

Stoneforge Mystic decks get played more.

So where that leads me... not 100% sure yet.

Also in the probably a bad idea category. Commune with Lava is a card that might be good for finding your combo in the mid to late game after locking the board up with prison elements. You'd never want to run more then two, maybe just one even... but I could see you casting it with X=3 or X=4 on their end step and then un-tapping and having mana and 4 or 5 additional cards to work with. Bonus it works with Ensnaring Bridge.

I started playing with 2 Chandras when she was printed. Found out she was insane, so I went up to 3. Then eventually went up to 4 about two months into her printing. She is a solid Plan B, and I don't think changes now that Grindstone is harder to find in mono-red. Chandra actually got nerfed because when I needed to make land drops, I'd tap Top, play land, Chandra +1, replay Top. With Top, I was able to find E. Bridge when necessary, but now I am forced to play more to naturally draw it. Honestly, I think mono-red is strictly worse than Rw now, so I need to reevaluate what I want to do.

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Small Creature Decks should be better, so maybe Goblins / Merfolk / Elves (definitely Elves) become more common.

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I don't think Goblins will see more play. One of the reasons to play Goblins is because of the positive Miracles MU. I doubt a field with more 1 mana 1/2 is great for Goblins. lol Merfolk is questionable. Elves for sure.

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Stoneforge Mystic decks get played more.

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Yeah, main deck Manic Vandal might be a thing again. Maybe even Jaya Ballard.

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Also in the probably a bad idea category. Commune with Lava is a card that might be good for finding your combo in the mid to late game after locking the board up with prison elements. You'd never want to run more then two, maybe just one even... but I could see you casting it with X=3 or X=4 on their end step and then un-tapping and having mana and 4 or 5 additional cards to work with. Bonus it works with Ensnaring Bridge.

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For 3 mana, I don't think the card is worth netting one card. For 4 mana, I'd rather play Chandra or Fiery Confluence or Pia and Kiran Nalaar. For 6+ mana, I think you can make use of Chandra and her +1 pretty easily without worrying about whiffing Grindstone or Painter. If you want a mana sink, I think Walking Ballista may be worth looking into.

Edit:
Honestly though, 90% of my fun comes from the interaction between Welder and SDT. I think I will put the deck down for a while and do some soul searching.

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Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook

Stream for discussing where we're gonna have to go and potential ideas tonight 11pm eastern.

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So what was the general consensus. While the deck isn't the same beast it was preban, is it still playable post ban?

Did any good information, tech get discussed in the stream last night?

So far from the forum discussion everyone is in panic mode and just taking stabs in the dark. Right now we have no data or knowledge of what will / won't work beyond individual card evaluation in a void.

Testing definetly needs to be done. But I feel like the group can at least come up with a logical direction to start exploring.

I'm really hoping the deck just doesn't fall apart from this hit. I think it's a bigger hit than it first looks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I only played 4 matches, mostly due to a glacially slow elves player. Before starting the games, I just spent some time laying the deck out in paper and figuring out what the core I wanted was and just discussing. Even with that though, I could feel how different the deck is going to feel moving forward. Games where you don't see a top will obviously be the same. However, knowing that you won't have that grinding power and ability to keep sketch one landers and that you won't be able to ever see one will for sure end up warping the deck construction. Top added so much play and so many lines to the deck it's actually ridiculous. Now, without it, it will be a more straightforward stompy type deck where you're not really manipulating your library or draws. It'll for sure play more like a death and taxes deck, just with additional tutors if you choose to go that route.

Obviously there is a ton to figure out with the meta and whatnot, but the pure speed shortcake of old is essentially dead. The build I was running last night was semi-based off the list I used to win Baltimore in early 2015 when bug, storm, and show and tell were major players and miracles was still very good, just to a lesser extent than now. I put revokers, magus, another bridge, and two main walkers with 20 lands and 4 accel. That was my first thought. Bridge and slowing the game down for walkers or moons will most likely become a much bigger plan of the deck now. The best example I can compare it to is when shortcake was first really coming onto the scene in 2013-2014 and people were playing it with the mindset of mono-red. Only much later did it truly evolve into a pure combo build. That's basically how it's going to feel.

I partially agree with Jack. I def think the deck will change except I think it is difficult to see where it should go while the meta shakes out to be honest. Moon effects should be slightly stronger now as the various BUG variants pop up. What will be critical is thinking about ways to interact with Deathrite if that is the case and the deck morphs into something a little slower. But I think worring about that at this time is a little rough. The beauty of the deck as always been the fact that the core is fairly consistent and red does have answers to most things, we just need to tailor the fringe cards of the deck.

I disagree with Jack that the combo centric version of the deck changes. While SDT did allow for greater selection in cards, stronger mid and late game, along with fixing some otherwise suspect hands, you still have access to incredible acceleration and tutors. SO I do not see SDT removal as a reason for that strategy to really change as SDT often times took a mana investment for future returns. The real question will be do you want to be running card disadvantage tutors in a deck with few other card selection and manipulation options. That is a tougher question to answer. And I think the notion of what emerges will really help answer that. In a format with increased Deathrite, E tutor may still be the choice.

If I was playing the deck over the next couple months I would suggest just swapping in some additional Bridges or Moon Effects in place of the SDT. I think testing other ideas would be awesome, but I caution taking too much from results as the meta shakes out. Things like entomb, Intuition, and mon red may be where we need to go, but as the meta evolves, you may get some bad results of ideas that could actually be awesome.

I know I plan to start playing regularly in NYC again after a long time away from Legacy as the format seems interesting, which it felt fairly stale for a while.

Keeping turning shit blue guys.

Seth

I reckon that the ban of top is actually good for us. I admit that the win % was a lot higher with top. BUT it made us take more risks than we needed to. There have been quite a few games where I kept a risky hand because of top and it didn't get the cards that I needed.

Without top it makes us play a lot safer which could be what we need.

I think I'm gonna give scroll rack a shot. Gonna add two scroll racks and a Chandra main in place of the tops. Gonna cut the 7th blast main for a 3rd ensnaring bridge main. This is what it will look like:

4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
4 red fetch
8 mountain
1 great furnace

4 painter
4 grindstone
4 ssg
1 magus of the moon
2 goblin welder
3 Chandra torch of defiance
3 ensnaring bridge
3 sudden shock
4 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
4 imperial recruiter
4 blood moon

SB:

2 tormods crypt
2 surgical extraction
2 fiery confluence
1 ensnaring bridge
1 sudden shock
1 manic vandal
1 phyrexian revoker
1 magus of the moon
3 thorn of amethyst
1 red elemental blast

I have a lot of d&t running around my meta.

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Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook

I only played 4 matches, mostly due to a glacially slow elves player. Before starting the games, I just spent some time laying the deck out in paper and figuring out what the core I wanted was and just discussing. Even with that though, I could feel how different the deck is going to feel moving forward. Games where you don't see a top will obviously be the same. However, knowing that you won't have that grinding power and ability to keep sketch one landers and that you won't be able to ever see one will for sure end up warping the deck construction. Top added so much play and so many lines to the deck it's actually ridiculous. Now, without it, it will be a more straightforward stompy type deck where you're not really manipulating your library or draws. It'll for sure play more like a death and taxes deck, just with additional tutors if you choose to go that route.

Obviously there is a ton to figure out with the meta and whatnot, but the pure speed shortcake of old is essentially dead. The build I was running last night was semi-based off the list I used to win Baltimore in early 2015 when bug, storm, and show and tell were major players and miracles was still very good, just to a lesser extent than now. I put revokers, magus, another bridge, and two main walkers with 20 lands and 4 accel. That was my first thought. Bridge and slowing the game down for walkers or moons will most likely become a much bigger plan of the deck now. The best example I can compare it to is when shortcake was first really coming onto the scene in 2013-2014 and people were playing it with the mindset of mono-red. Only much later did it truly evolve into a pure combo build. That's basically how it's going to feel.

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Ya that's the exact idea I was having to. We just play the prison Blood Moon and Bridge game with Planeswalkers and combo as our finisher. What our numbers are, different story.

Did some testing today with a chrome mox, third chandra, and third bridge main. I actually like the chrome mox with painters servant.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/artist-by-trade/

Seth yea I mis-represented what I meant when I said the pure combo is more or less gone. Top allowed for super searching when looking for additionsl combo pieces and recursion after our initial ones were answered. We obviously still have every piece of acceleration available to us and our early game speed is for sure still intact. I just think the less mid-game power means it will just be slightly different in how we approach comboing off. I think now is a good time to revisit seth's posts from a while ago on how we still need to approach the build. Links are in my sig.

I'm just brainstorming my initial thoughts on how it feels. It's also important to remember that there was a time when people didn't even play top in the deck and still put up great results.

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Originally Posted by Valleysdai

I reckon that the ban of top is actually good for us. I admit that the win % was a lot higher with top. BUT it made us take more risks than we needed to. There have been quite a few games where I kept a risky hand because of top and it didn't get the cards that I needed.

Without top it makes us play a lot safer which could be what we need.

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I would disagree. We don't play blue... Were a combo deck. SDT was our card filtering and selection too... And repeatable, and an artifact.


I feel like SDT gave non blue decks a shot... It was the "other" brainstorm (kinda). I think Seth made a good point... May have to go a more UR route with intuition. That deck was viable, but just wasn't as good as shortcake. It may be now.


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@SDBobPlissken
If your field is filled with DnT, Cunning Sparkmage, Goblin Sharpshooter, Bloodfire Dwarf, Walking Ballista, and Fireslinger are worth looking into.

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Originally Posted by Moomba

Ya that's the exact idea I was having to. We just play the prison Blood Moon and Bridge game with Planeswalkers and combo as our finisher. What our numbers are, different story.

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You just described Mono Red Painter's game plan.

@ Jack- I sort of figured that is what you meant, I just wanted to clarify the thought. At least I hope that is how it came out.

I think Scroll Rack is def not where you want to be with this deck. I will admit that I have not tested the card, but unless discard picks up significantly it does not really fit with the deck as currently built. You really need a good deal of shuffle effects to really get value from the card. I would like to hear results but my gut tells me it is a poor substitute for SDT.

The loss of SDT from the environment I think hurts us more than it helps. I mean Miracles was a favorable match up I thought so just by losing a favorable match up and having Sneak and Show and other decks rise up will by default make the deck weaker. That does not even address the fact that SDT really gave the deck reach. I am not sure how you replace what it did. While I do not think this means we have to fundamentally change the deck, we need to consider it in the coming months.

Blood moon and its effects should continue to be stronger now. I would think that you need a way to handle Deathrite in the 75. I think what happens with that card will really determine where the deck can go. If Deathrite doesn't go crazy then Intuition may be a viable engine in the deck. If Deathrite does make a large impact then we need to look elsewhere as some GB designs can be brutal for Painter. It will also be interesting to see where Abrupt Decay fails within the new meta. Will it continue to be widely played or will decks try and reduce their curve with other removal spells and destruction spells at one mana. Without seeing this it is difficult to make wide scale changes. That is why I say caution should be taken with changes.

All of my thoughts are based on the white splash variants.

From the mono red players, does the loss of SDT cripple that deck?

Seth

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Originally Posted by sroncor1

From the mono red players, does the loss of SDT cripple that deck?

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So i've been playing the Mono R version for the last couple of weeks and I think I think it's a pretty mixed bag. That version plays a lot more like stompy deck than Rw, with Rw I would often tutor for a top if I felt like the game was going to go long. It was nice having a way to smooth out your draws every once in a while but lets be real top allowed you to rearrange the 3 lands on top.

Yeah living on the draw seems really rough in current Legacy.

Seth

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Originally Posted by L10

Yeah, main deck Manic Vandal might be a thing again. Maybe even Jaya Ballard.

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I was planning on running both of those...

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Originally Posted by L10

For 3 mana, I don't think the card is worth netting one card. For 4 mana, I'd rather play Chandra or Fiery Confluence or Pia and Kiran Nalaar. For 6+ mana, I think you can make use of Chandra and her +1 pretty easily without worrying about whiffing Grindstone or Painter. If you want a mana sink, I think Walking Ballista may be worth looking into.

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I think you are evaluating it along a completely different axis then I am. Chandra, Fiery Confluence, and Pia and Kiran Nalaar can't be cast on your opponents end step....

I'm not really advocating for trying Commune with Lava, just saying I think it's more powerful then you realize. I'm not sure that we'll be in a role where we'd want to be playing slowly and defensively... but in those match-ups being able to "draw" 4 - 5 (X=3 + 1 [for normal draw]) cards on a critical turn seems pretty good....

Last thought, Firey Confluence, and Pia and Kiran Nalaar are totally different beasts from commune with lava and Chandra (might be better to play them over commune / Chandra) because they don't in anyway advance the combo plan. So while yeah, I don't think this is "Good." I also don't think it's the cards you listed are really playing the same role.

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Originally Posted by sroncor1

The loss of SDT from the environment I think hurts us more than it helps.

I would think that you need a way to handle Deathrite in the 75.

If Deathrite does make a large impact then we need to look elsewhere as some GB designs can be brutal for Painter.

From the mono red players, does the loss of SDT cripple that deck?

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IDK maybe if you look at only first order impacts. For example you said why would people play Goblins when Miracles (one of Goblins best matches) is gone. That's true, but clearly Goblins while great against Miracles didn't match-up favorably against the rest of the field that existed in a Miracles based Meta. That said you are right, Goblins is unlikely given it's problems with SFM and DRS decks.

Back to Painter though, maybe the second order impacts are better for us. Sure Top was a good card for us, but it was a much better card for decks with Brainstorm and Top-deck Interaction. I've played Phyrexian Revoker on Top more then once and won most of the games I did that... but ignoring that maybe the decks that rise to the top now and the decks that agree good against those decks are better for us.

Agreed on needing ways to handle DRS, going to add should consider the threat of SFM as well. (Phyrexian Revoker is a good stop gap card...)

I'm not sure I agree on GB being rough for painter. Maybe something has changed that I'm overlooking but back in the old days they died super hard to Blood moon / Magus of the Moon since they don't have lighting bolt or white for STP. So if BUG or GB becomes big I would anticipate wanting to play between 6-7 moon effects.

So no I don't think it "cripples" the deck for mono red, but I do think it presents some challenges. That said it might be better for Mono-Red then it is worse... depending on the meta shapes up. Mono-Red has always hinged on the strength of the prison elements, and what prison elements are going to be good takes a good predicted meta.

I am playing mono red, i just put the 4th chandra back, 8th blast and a sudden shock for now. I am thinking if BUG variants rise I will want more Magus of the Moon probably.