What cards should I be considering in a meta filled with sort-of-fair creature decks?
Think: DnT, Aether Vial + Cavern of Souls.dec, Elves, Grixis/BUG Delver
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What cards should I be considering in a meta filled with sort-of-fair creature decks?
Think: DnT, Aether Vial + Cavern of Souls.dec, Elves, Grixis/BUG Delver
On the topic of Predict: is it any better than running Ancestral Vision? Anyone running an Esper build try out Painful Truths yet?
Predict is very much better than Visions yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Offensive_username
I don't think Esper Miracles exists (as both REB and Wear//Tear are intergral parts of our decks), but Painful Truths is clearly a consideration in those colours.
@Cards for Vial+Cavern matches: Needle, Staticaster, Swords and Terminus are all pretty good. Wear // Tear are also needed.
Pyroclasm too (Can we avoid 20 comments about how Pyroclasm is secretly the best card in legacy at the moment?)
Fair decks are not all the same, really should not list all of them in the same sentence. Also, why would you put Elves there in the sentence? Isn't the full name of the deck Combo elves?Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
You can split those decks into 2 types by asking yourself: does it run Vial and/or Cavern?
If your meta is filled with Goblins and Merfolk, maybe you should just Not play Miracles at all. Of all the Miracles build, I would actually suggest Predict Miracles. The creature removal package from those builds are so~~ redundant. However, you have to change the SB a bit. Other than Staticaster people here have suggested, you know there will be massive hate on SDT via needle and/or null rod, and possibly Chalice from your opponent. I would recommend EE, your own needle, pyroclasm, and even a mountain (if not in the MD) are all possible options.
It's a fine card, I value its surprise element much higher than the actual card. DnT players might suspect you to have it, but they might still risk it by playing into it. Another issue with the card is red mana source. Against tempo/Vial decks, they run stifle and/or wasteland, how do you actually establish your Mana base without using basic mountain can be tricky sometimes, hence you're kind of priced into running at least 1 mountain in your 75.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
About Grixis GUR or Young Pyro Decks
If Grixis YP decks is very popular in your area, one card I recommend is Slice and Dice. If you're able to float this card to avoid therapy, it's amazing when you cycle it. If the game goes long, flashback it is not impossible. Here's a clip of how difficult YP deck can be:
GP SeaTac
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2mnFBK4kPU
https://youtu.be/t2mnFBK4kPU
Because they just use punishing fire to kill your meddling mage? Or, if you name Pfire, they molten vortex and kill it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
Predict is far and beyond more powerful than Vision, especially if you build around it. Painful truths is powerful, but Red blasts are even stronger and not something I'd ever be willing to lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Offensive_username
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minniehajj
Yeah, I suppose that makes sense. Only played the matchup once, ever. Still, that seems like a reason to just no run it at all.
Been trying out Predict in the sideboard and have only had good experiences with it so far. Predicted a flipped Top with Red Blast on the Stack targeting their Counterbalance, today. Card is insane in the mirror. I think I dropped it too quickly 2 years back on account of drawing it dead twice in a tournament. In the list I'm running it plays off 18 cards in the deck, including blind flips from Counterbalance, which I never realized would happen.
Alright, so predict is the bee's knees. I get it. Now I have a follow-up question that I surprisingly cannot find an answer for with my google-fu...Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
With a RIP in play, does Predict still work for two cards when accurately called?
It just kind of trips me up being that it never says "reveal" before it's chucked in a (non-existent) GY.
Still works as intended.Quote:
Originally Posted by Offensive_username
Was browsing through SCG and saw on one of the SCG Classics there was a Miracles list that got 10th place. However it looks like something out of 2012, it's running Rip-Helm and Elspeth in the Sideboard.
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (21)
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
Spells (36)
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Detention Sphere
3 Rest in Peace
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Ponder
4 Terminus
Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Containment Priest
3 Meddling Mage
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Wear
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Can anyone hazard what kind of sideboarding strategy this deck would use? I find it odd if someone was going on the RIP-Helm Strategy there would at least be an enlightened tutor or two somewhere to get the combo going. Also, forgive my ignorance but isn't Spell Pierce and other taxing counters not the best in this deck due to their diminishing effect as the game goes on?
Bad decks win all the time, and yes, to answer your questions. E-tutor is not favored anymore since it's inherent card disadvantage, and yes, that's why spell pierce is bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuke is Good
Explains why Predict is doing well :^)Quote:
Originally Posted by Minniehajj
Have you tried the card in a build designed around it yet? Your arguments have no basis when you cant actually evaluate the card properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
I said the same thing about 4x Ponder in Miracles for the longest. It's hard to tell whether anything being done with this deck is an evolution, or just a shift in collective preferences.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
Watch someone win the next GP with RIP Miracles. :eyebrow:
I have been toying with this deck build for a while, I am a new miracles player and I was trying to decide between Legends miracles and, standard..? miracles? I guess?
either way my Flex slots have been between 3 Snapcasters, 1 JTMS, 1 ETA, and 1 Councils Judgement, vs 1 Vensor, 3 Clique, 2 Karakas.
I don't like mentor in the deck. At all, I don't have enough experience to argue against it, but I will not be playing it.
2 ETA seems like a good choice, having one stuck in your hand all game and still being able to Top Deck one (when you need it) is very nice, plus extra Probability of hitting a win con.
Haven't gotten much use out of Snappies yet, There is potential with 4 B-storm and STP, I would keep these.
Jace is...Amazing, 3 is probably the perfect number.
I tried to do some testing with a MD Keranos based on an earlier post, but after numerous games I never saw him. Must be a sign, we are waiting for a miracle after all.
My BF plays reanimator so having a vensor and karakas is obviously strong, I think 'normal miracles' should run at least 1 Karakas as a white source, and mull to it if it's the difference between winning and losing.
Have yet to use council's judgement, V-clique as a 1 of might actually be a decent consideration MD, it is almost impossible to be a bad card to have.
4 Ponder makes it possible to get through your deck, even if SDT is in the last 15 cards of your deck... (this was an awful experience by the way, still won that game but wow.)
You touch on various topics, I'll reply to each one separately.Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosjace
1. Legend vs. non-Legend
The primary issue with Legend Miracles is time. You'll spend A Lot of turns Karakas bouncing your Legends, which is empty spinning. This is known as the Clique/Venser dance. The reason is that you'll run into board states in which blocking is required but you don't have the creature removal redundancy snapcater-centric build provides. They are not flex slots, you have to decide which is more valuable to you, Snapcaster or Clique. Your path and game plan are set once you choose the path. If you go for Lossett's Cavern build, which runs both but I forget the number, then that creates a separate issue with the Mana base.
2. Mentor vs. other win condition
Mentor is great in that it costs one White while Entreat requires WW. While it's obvious, that makes a huge difference. Again, if your build is centered around spells, then Snapcaster and Mentor all fit in naturally. Another consideration is the Shardless BUG MU, Mentor does Not shine in that MU at all.
3. Karakas
BBD has mentioned this in his post SeaTac article. "I don't mind Karakas as a spell. I just don't count it as a land," said BBD. I agree with this assessment. Again, if you choose Clique, this "spell" would fit in nicely. I see it as a Legendary Mox Pearl with additional text such as skip your land drop.
In conclusion, debating one card vs. another card in a generic Miracles archetype context is pointless, since it itself is very customizable. People really should just try all these builds, and you naturally would prefer one build over another.
At SCG Cinci's Legacy, 3rd place Miracles ran 2 Wasteland. Interestingly enough, I'm considering doing the same. I didn't think to include Crucible, but that seems like an interesting build. I might give it a try.
What problem is that seeking to solve, I wonder.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
Well it makes us (almost) immune to Wasteland decks, plus it allows us to deal with problem lands (Boseiju, Cavern, Port, Grove, Stage, Cloudpost, etc) without having to run Blood Moon.Quote:
Originally Posted by matunos
Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Thanks for the input. I think I prefer Ponder miracles. I played against lands the other day and was able to fight off 9 tokens. The extra dig/shuffle is too nice to pass up.
Getting to three mana sorcery speed vs wasteland decks is difficult. Especially when that three-mana-play does nothing to help you survive pressure from Delvers/Thalia's etc. If you manage to resolve Crucible, your mana problems are already more or less solved, and you are in the mid game. I.e. it seems like a win-more card in those match-ups.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
Miracles wants to have as many lands in play as possible, because our end-game spells (Top+Entreat especially) are really mana hungry. Repeatedly using your land drops on Crucible-recurred Wastelands seems counterproductive. (Except against decks that are even more mana hungry, of course, but that basically only includes 12post and MUD). Therefore the aggressive applications seem rather limited.
Repeated shuffle effects and guaranteed land drops (with fetches) are nice in grindy match-ups for sure, but I'm wondering if you wouldn't typically be better off resolving a Mentor in such situations?
The deck is already pretty immune to Wasteland decks given the number of basics it runs and its mainly 2-color requirements.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
I think the delver wasteland decks like RUG Delver are typically happy to see you spend 3 mana (or more of you're playing around Daze) for something that doesn't directly affect the board. The decay ones will just destroy it if it's really a problem.
I see dealing with problematic lands as you point out, but IMO some of those aren't much of a problem, and others aren't effectively dealt with.
12Post plays maindeck needles that can name Wasteland, and game 1 at least often will if they don't know what you're on yet. You might catch them by surprise game 2, but you also might not find your Wasteland plus Crucible pair when needle is naming Top.
Lands can wait until they deal with your wasteland before they activate stage, and anyway that's a good matchup.
Most of those other lands can theoretically be dealt with with Dust Bowl, at least in the late game, which can activate multiple times without needing the Crucible.
I've been trying out the newer builds of Miracles after being away from the deck for a while. I tried a few games with Predict, and of course the sample size is tiny so my experience is anecdotal at best, but I don't think I like it.
The problem is that I don't really want to cut anything else to make room. I have concluded that cutting Ponders for Predict is ridiculous. Thus, the decision for me was to either play maindeck Mentors (2 Mentors, 3 Terminus) or Predict (1-2 Predict, 4 Ponder, 4 Terminus).
The dilemma with the Predict version is that for me, Mentors basically take the place of 1 Terminus and 1 Entreat. If I'm not playing the Mentors, I want all 4 Terminus. I kind of want 2 Entreats in that case, but I suppose I could live with 1. The only thing I could shave is the maindeck Council's Judgment, and I don't want to shave that. Moving Judgment to the sideboard feels wrong, because Judgment is expensive all-purpose removal and I feel sideboard cards should be more narrow and efficient (I ask myself "what would I bring Judgment in against that I don't want main?" and I don't have a great answer other than maybe Liliana).
So, already I think I'm down to 1 Predict. Now, my main theoretical objection to the card is that while Predict may be very good in a few cases and pretty good in other cases, it's not very good by itself.
To really get value you need to know what the top card is. Otherwise, it's a 2 mana cantrip whose effect is worse than Thought Scour. In many of the scenarios in which you know what the top card is, you are already in an advantageous position (e.g. you have an active Top, or a Counterbalance). In other situations like Pondering and Brainstorming, you have to invest more mana to profit, meaning the card is weak in the early game. In the case of Brainstorm, ideally I'd be Brainstorming and fetching *after* a Predict, to apply better selection to the random cards I just drew. That is, when you have a Predict in hand and no active Top, you are tempted to play your other cantrips (especially Brainstorm) inefficiently in order to get value from the Predict. I don't like having to play my cantrips inefficiently.
Predict also seems like a card that if you want it in the main deck, you rarely want to side it out, making sideboarding a little harder.
Thus, overall, I'm not yet convinced the card advantage in the situations where it exists is really that much better than the alternatives. Nevertheless, I am receptive to the idea that it offers a good advantage in the mirror, where things go long and being a card up can make a big difference, but is it the best among alternatives? I'm not even sure I'd want it over, say, Keranos (which, please note, I am not currently playing).
Use running basic lands as an argument to safeguard against RUG Delver is not enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by matunos
RUG Delver's Mana Denial strategy is both Stifle and Wasteland in conjunction. Most people would agree in that, often when facing RUG Delver, you could have 4 lands in play at one point in the game, then only 1 at the subsequent turn. This is because some of those lands are fetches, they are not real. Hence, the focus's shifted as to how does one break fetch(s) safely, without being blown out by stifle? My response is that this might not be up to you. This depends on the board state, life total, ...etc. Say you're facing down multiple threats, against a Bolt deck like RUG Delver, you might or might have the time/turn to play around Stifle.
Long story short, Reid Duke has been running 1 Predict ever since 2014, if he believes it's good enough to have exactly one copy in his version, then I trust his assessment. I read all the arguments, including watching stream of Das, and tried predict miracles myself for a while, but I find video coverage(s) of Duke running one copy has been the most helpful and convincing evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by matunos
Have you tried the streamlined version that myself, AnziD (Anuraag Das), Mackan (Truckis on MODO) have been championing? It's built specifically to abuse the potential of what Predict can do for you, as well as streamlining the deck to the point where every card has a purpose. Just try a build that's designed to abuse it and I can guarantee you that you'll see the merits of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by matunos
Hi All,
What do you guys think of Kozilek's return?
http://static.starcitygames.com/sale...leksReturn.jpg
Instant Pyroclasm that helps us to counter the terrible 3cc spells and (overall) doesn't allow any kind of Protection from red to work (SoFI, Mother of Runes, ecc)
so bad? for 5 mana you can wrath eot from graveyard with Snapmage..
I think the biggest thing is that you can incidentally cast the card without trying, a lot of the time. The majority of Brainstorm and Ponders aren't even "good ones" where you get to crack a fetch after. There's only 8-10 fetches in the deck and Top has a way of eating those up quickly. This is assuming you don't have a Counterbalance or Top in play, which represent the 8 core cards of the deck. I'd even go so far as to say that one of the main bottlenecks of this deck is how you can't sift through your deck fast enough, and end up either Brainstorm locked or seeing one new card a turn, no different than if you had no Top to begin with. This is one of the reasons to run Ponder to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by matunos
I'd consider dropping that Council's Judgment if you really want to make space. Maybe (likely) nobody is going to agree with this, but I don't like non-creature removal like Council's Judgment and Wear/Tear. If they Needle a Top in play, you flip it and Brainstorm it away half the time. It's not like you need the Top for Counterbalance anymore. I run Venser and a third Clique in the board, so Liliana is almost an entertaining card to play against. Council's Judgment seems like an answer to a question nobody's asking. I wonder what matchups it's better than Clique maindeck? There's basically nothing in Legacy but Liliana where Judgment doesn't trade down the curve, and it really looks like the worst card in the deck. I don't think I'd play this deck without 2 Cliques maindeck, but even a Predict seems better for the matchups where you want to cast Vindicate on permanents.
So real quick on the whole "Predictable" Miracles thing, I haven't seen anyone post the synergy between Jace's +2 and being able to name a card on top of their library, Mill it, and then draw 2 cards...why not? This also slightly baffles me as to why you would lower the number of Jaces, although I can also hear your answer echoing back to me from the future "Predict creates card advantage - tage - tage..."
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
You answered the question yourself =PQuote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Also, 20 lands. Streamlining the deck, making our Jaces objectively more powerful than opposing ones because we're basically bulldozing through the deck. You'll also find yourself snapcastering back cantrips fairly often, for the same reason.
It's certainly something to consider, but against DnT 4 mana for an instant speed board wipe is worse than a 3 mana flash blocker + infinite ping, though yes the Devoid is certainly relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Sulfur Elemental is definitly the best card possible against DnT, but this kills your mentor strategy as well and to have a plan B sideboard can take too many spots..
I will give it a try in the Pyroclasm spot.
if only it was (3)...:eek:
Also, immagine it against Elves.
Natural Order for Behemot
Resp to trigger: Koz. Ret.
Behemot comes as a 6/6 and empty board
A solution to Craterhoof Behemoth that is instant and works through Null Rod seems pretty good, but Elves is already a good matchup, AND the Behemoth is still left on the board. I'd prioritize tech for the D&T matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
I'm actually testing a predict miracle (Anzid list). I really like it a lot but my main issue is time. I test it on cockatrice and it's tight on the clock. I often have a winning board state but have to win with a billion attack of snapcaster. Should i play entreat just for clock purpose or train and play it really fast ?
I'd like to know, for the one playing it on MTGO, are you tight on clock ?
Same for IRL tournament. I'm afraid of slowplay, even non-intentional one.
Playing this variant is a lot easier on MTGO than in IRL because of the Chess ClockQuote:
Originally Posted by gdtpara
We're in the process of testing various maindeck win conditions, stay tuned for testing results.
Thanks for testing it out! Yes, this list is /significantly/ more difficult to pilot w.r.t to time. However, in the past 50 matches I've played I haven't gone to time once, which leads me to believe that with proper practice, play, and deckbuilding, the clock should not be an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by gdtpara
How do you guys beat merfolk or other Aether vial decks?
That depends on whether they are playing a mana denial strategy or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by raistlinim
Against Merfolk, I think I would board in Wear//Tear. It can deal with Vials, Spreading seas, and Top hate like Pithing Needle.
Terminus is clearly your best card. Mentor isn't great, as you can't expect to chump block reliably. If you have Mentor, prioritize Swords on Lords that grant island walk. They don't have much in the card advantage department, so you should have some chance to stall them with Sword -> Snapcaster -> Swords, and obv. Terminus until you can cast an Entreat.
Any Red blast effects are, of course, excellent.
Death & Taxes is completely different because of Ports and Wastelands.
Wear//Tear is still great as it can take out equipment, Revokers, and Vials.
The difficult part is developing your mana, but this should be the highest priority. Port and Wastelands can make it difficult to miracle Terminus in your draw step, and Top is important for that reason.
Don't worry too much about Mom, as Terminus will take care of everything if you manage to cast it. Revoker and Thalia are actually the most annoying Threats.
Izzet Staticaster or even Sulphur Elemental are great. Mentor is excellent. FoW is not great so could be boarded out in some numbers, but beware of Cataclysm in the late game!
I will likely FoW a turn 1 Vial, especially if I have the CB/T lock in my sights, but don't panic because of Vials. You can still Terminus and Swords-Snap-Swords. The only source of Card Advantage in their deck is Stoneforge Mystic, so you should win the long game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozimek
I agree with most of the above. Just want to add that Merfolk often plays Chalice of the Void which is a big problem as it shuts down our best cards (swords, reb and brainstorm). The matchup is slightly unfavored. Mentor is kinda bad because of Chalice and because they can race it due to islandwalk. Stoneforge+Batterskull is much better.
DnT is a lot tricker but favored once you get the hang of it. Fetch basics, kill their guys and play around Cataclysm. Do NOT keep CB in postboard, it's unreliable because of vial and their revoker/needle on top.
Since we side CB out (yes it's correct) we are not a huge favorite in the lategame except for a big ETA.
Agreed. Chalice can be a pain. I've played little from the Miracles side but tons from the other sides since i like a lot the Vial decks, and I feel that the only one where you will really be at a disadvantage is vs Goblins, because Ringleader and Matrons create too much card advantageQuote:
Originally Posted by Mackan
I apologize, I was referring to the predict version of the deck. I imagine without EtA that merfolk, chalice, and D&T, Mana denial, would be tough matchups. I like the predicts in testing just wondering what the game plan is.