[Deck] Goblins

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Originally Posted by B-rad

Let me start by saying that Goblin Lackey is a horrendous magic card right now. With all the deathrites along with the rest of the traditional removal AND Abrupt Decay, our favorite little 1/1 is not getting in there any more. It's a sickening feeling opening on him just to have him be walled by a deathrite. Honestly, Aether Vial is about as bad as I've ever seen it. I'm terrified to keep hands that heavily rely on the card just to have it be Abrupt decayed and then getting smashed in the face by a super-charged Goyf. I've never seen Tarmogoyf be as big a problem for Goblins as he is right now. I started thinking back to the days of extended Goblins from 3-4 years ago and remembered a magic card I've had a lot of success with in Patriarch's Bidding.

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I agree with you that goblins has problems catching up with the speed of legacy and that lackey does not connect due to the shaman and vial. But I don't think it is that bad-goblins has seen worse times, i.e. past the mental misstep era. Goyf is huge right now but so was KotR a while ago. We play more MWM and chump block. In a time with Abrupt Decay, we play more lands to not relay on vial so much. Lackey is still a threat and every good player will keep a blocker or removal for him. With Tarfire, Sparksmith and P.Fire people are finding answers and still do top 8s as posted before. I just think you have to play very tight and adjust your list to your very own playstile that you are comforable with.
Still your list looks interesting-go ahead and test it, while I will take the PF list to beat BUG and other fair decks. As gobbolord posted a while a go, the key for the win is to play interactless. Meaning playing gobbos through Cavern or vial. Not offering targets for Abrupt decay (Ringleader, Krenko, Tuktuk, B.Liege), P.Fire for removal that can be recurred to discard and K.Grip for Plagues, Moat...I think you get the idea.

Looking at the latest elves list (Gb), I'm hoping for a 2/1 gruul hybrid goblin or at least a update for TSH in gatecrash. Maybe gruul charm does any good?
Speaking of card wishes and the recently spoiled goblin, which was devastating:

Lightning struck Goblin RR1
Creature-Goblin

You may play goblin spells as though they had flash.
2/2

I mean if blue gets something similar as a StP, red should lean over the edges of it's usual color boarders as well.

I share brad's opinion about lackey and vial in the current metagame, but i don't think the answer to these problems is to change our deck so radically.
If you want to make lackey connect , just play more removals ( like everyone is doing with tarfire / sparksmith / punishing fire ).
Now that cavern of souls has been printed, vial is maybe less necessary in our deck. I thought a lot of time about cutting it, but then I realized that in years and years of magic wizard has never printed a decent one-mana cost goblin playable in legacy , apart from goblin lackey, skirk prospector and maybe mogg fanatic. We really miss one cost drops, and i don't see myself cutting 4 vial for 4 skirk prospectors.
Bidding goblin was a very strong deck when Skullclamp was not banned.... you could equip skullclamp to any goblin with a toughness higher than one, then sacrifice that goblin with prospector and you basically drew 2 cards for zero mana cost. That way you drew tons of cards , had tons of goblins in graveyard, and in the end cast patriarch's bidding and win. But the key card of this strategy was not the bidding nor the prospector, it was skullclamp. In Brad's list i see only two Biddings.... how do you think to draw it frequently without the draw-engine of skullclamp ? At least you should run 4 biddings if you want to go this route.

Deck: Hannover Goblins

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:33
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander

Spells:5
4 AEther Vial
1 Tarfire

Lands:22
4 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mountain
2 Plateau
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Krosan Grip
1 Boartusk Liege

Hey I playtested a lot with other experienced players vs BUG, JUNK and Rock and the list above could win consitently vs
them.

Try it out. The list is bonkers and solves many problems:

- 6 Hastelords for pressure as we lose speed due to Hymn and Shaman.
- Relic instead of RiP as it is a cantrip. Something we need as Hymn disrupts us much. This compensates it a bit.
Relic is a cc1 spell and can be cast turn 1 which is great as we board out lackey and need new one drops.
- Liege is THE answer versus their plague. It has a body and often wins games alone.
- Thalia is my combo hate peace.
- And now the bomb:
A playset swords. It removes everything. Shamans, Goyfs, Knights, Delvers, Tombstalkers...everything. it is more flexible then Tarfire and Sparksmith is sometimes too slow and tends to make us hard times if our life total is not high and we are behind.
- The second Shooter is instead of Kinesis as we need some answers versus the mirror and Maverick. One SB place is ok with our main shooter.

The boarding plan is:

Jund/Rock/Aggro Loam/BUG Delver:
-4 Lackey - 1 TSH -1 Pile - 1 Sharp - 1 Ringleader + 3 Relic + 4 Swords + 1 Liege

The deck has proved itself in tests and has a really ok MU vs the current Meta.

Try it :-)

Your list seems good , but if you're running 1 shooter main and one in side i think you should find room for one prospector, they're too strong together.

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Originally Posted by B-rad

Hey guys. So after sitting back and evaluating the meta game for the last couple weeks all the while playing against all these new decks, I've come to the conclusion that Goblins is slowly getting pushed out of the format. We are on life support but not completely dead yet. I think it's time for some changes and a little thinking outside the box if we want to reassert ourselves back into the thick of things.

Let me start by saying that Goblin Lackey is a horrendous magic card right now. With all the deathrites along with the rest of the traditional removal AND Abrupt Decay, our favorite little 1/1 is not getting in there any more. It's a sickening feeling opening on him just to have him be walled by a deathrite. Honestly, Aether Vial is about as bad as I've ever seen it. I'm terrified to keep hands that heavily rely on the card just to have it be Abrupt decayed and then getting smashed in the face by a super-charged Goyf. I've never seen Tarmogoyf be as big a problem for Goblins as he is right now. I started thinking back to the days of extended Goblins from 3-4 years ago and remembered a magic card I've had a lot of success with in Patriarch's Bidding.

Legacy Goblin Bidding

4 Skirk Prospector
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Aether Vial
2 Patriarch's Bidding

4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
8 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Badlands

SB:
4 Goblin Lackey
?? Artifact Hate
?? Creature Hate
?? Graveyard Hate
?? Combo Hate

I initially thought about adding green for a few abrupt decays to replace the vials but that seemed quite greedy. Skirk Prospector is the cat's pajamas in this kind of deck as it combos extremely well with bidding not to mention it's a 1/1 that actually does something right now unlike poor little Lackey. If you have a Prospector out and they are STPing something always sac it to get in the yard instead of exiled.

As you can see we have 0 Caverns in the 75 as you actually don't mind your guys getting countered because that hopefully means our biddings are resolving. I'm trying to make the deck as resilient to wasteland as possible and make the mana as smooth as i can. I'm still unsure of the appropriate number of lands and which ones should be in the deck but I feel like this is a good starting point.

As bad as lackey is in a lot of matches he is still quite good vs the unfairs and kind of necessary so he slid he over to the board. Just take out biddings against combo decks and bring him in for a little more pressure.

For all I know Patriarch's Bidding may not actually be a legitimate legacy card, but I am tired of getting my face smashed in by this recent wave of new decks. I'm going to work on this for a while and run it through the gauntlet to see how it holds up. If anyone has any suggestions, comments, or anything let me know because I am all ears!!!

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I think you'd want another Bidding in there somewhere to increase your chances of drawing it or if it gets discarded. Cabal Therapy has a place in the board, probably. It can clear the way for Bidding as well as rip peoples hands apart. I'm OK with no Caverns because I don't think your manabase can support it.

With the current trend of Legacy becoming "fair-er" I think Patriarch's Bidding doesn't look all that weird. If Bloodbraid Elf can see play why not other, older Type 2 cards? Interesting take on the deck, regardless.

Vexing Shusher makes bidding uncounterable.

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Originally Posted by Sasan

Deck: Hannover Goblins

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:33
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander

Spells:5
4 AEther Vial
1 Tarfire

Lands:22
4 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mountain
2 Plateau
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Krosan Grip
1 Boartusk Liege

Hey I playtested a lot with other experienced players vs BUG, JUNK and Rock and the list above could win consitently vs
them.

Try it out. The list is bonkers and solves many problems:

- 6 Hastelords for pressure as we lose speed due to Hymn and Shaman.
- Relic instead of RiP as it is a cantrip. Something we need as Hymn disrupts us much. This compensates it a bit.
Relic is a cc1 spell and can be cast turn 1 which is great as we board out lackey and need new one drops.
- Liege is THE answer versus their plague. It has a body and often wins games alone.
- Thalia is my combo hate peace.
- And now the bomb:
A playset swords. It removes everything. Shamans, Goyfs, Knights, Delvers, Tombstalkers...everything. it is more flexible then Tarfire and Sparksmith is sometimes too slow and tends to make us hard times if our life total is not high and we are behind.
- The second Shooter is instead of Kinesis as we need some answers versus the mirror and Maverick. One SB place is ok with our main shooter.

The boarding plan is:

Jund/Rock/Aggro Loam/BUG Delver:
-4 Lackey - 1 TSH -1 Pile - 1 Sharp - 1 Ringleader + 3 Relic + 4 Swords + 1 Liege

The deck has proved itself in tests and has a really ok MU vs the current Meta.

Try it :-)

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As i said in the german forum your list is great. I will test it the next few weeks. Please more feedbacks from the other Gobo players!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sasan

Deck: Hannover Goblins

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:33
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander

Spells:5
4 AEther Vial
1 Tarfire

Lands:22
4 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mountain
2 Plateau
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Krosan Grip
1 Boartusk Liege

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Interesting list. It doesn't contain Sparksmith, which you had been advocating for. I am also unhappy with sharpshooter in general atm and would also rather see a Skirk Prospecter in there. Concerning the mana base, I dunno if 22 lands are enough in a 3-colored mana base, but if you splash white, I'd change the 2nd Plateau for a Karakas. If somebody needs an explanaition why Karakas is good right now, I am willing to post this seperately. I also don't know if 1 single tarfire does a big difference. While 2 Chieftains might also be too much.
Concerning your sideboard I'd play a RiP additionally as GY hate. Maybe cut a Sword. I'm not happy with the swords in general, I'd rather see them be pyrokinesises (2-3). If you got a free slot, sleeve up one more piece of goblin artifact hate (TSH).

But other than this I can see it perform well in a BUG heavy meta.

So why is Karakas good now? ;)

It is colorless mana and makes it harder to cast Liege.

2 Chieftains is the right call as Brad Campell said we need a more explosive play to win. That is also my mind. Without Ports we must be faster as we have less disruption. Chiefs give us a not so bad board state after hymn has ruined our hands. That is why I run Relics. I want to compensate the card losses. Hymn is so badass versus us.

The mana base is ok, I will add a third Plateau instead of one basic mountain.

Sparksmith failed in my tests. I tried to love it and advocated for it. But man is this guy a bad top deck and he needs a hastelord to be good. It is bad when you are totally behind in life totals and ever sparksmited a Goyf and a Tombstalker? Great stuff but you will lose to the next flipped delver. Swords do not have these limitations.

Sharp is still MD Material as we face the mirror, some maverick decks and the rising elves. It is good vs moat and Belcher and ANT (if they cast ETW).

These are my points.

So we all seem to agree that the key to fight the current metagame is to have a more explosive play and run more removals spells.
My opinion is that now also aether vial is a bad card because every deck has an answer to it : blue decks can counter it, non blue decks have main deck abrupt decay. if we keep a hand that rely on vial and it is destroyed we're going to lose easily. Moreover, we now have caverns to dodge counterspells.
Considering this, i'm going to test this deck :

Punishing Vial-less goblins

Creatures:
-4 goblin lackey
-4 skirk prospector
-4 goblin matron
-4 goblin ringleader
-3 goblin piledriver
-3 goblin warchief
-2 goblin chieftain
-2 mogg war marshal
-2 warren instigator
-2 goblin sharpshooter
-1 stingscourger
-1 tin street hooligan
-1 siege-gang commander
-1 krenko,mob boss
Other spells:
-4 punishing fire

Lands:
-4 cavern of souls
-4 wasteland
-4 grove of the burnwillows
-3 mountain
-2 taiga
-5 fetchlands

Sideboard:
-4 relic of progenitus
-3 chalice of the void
-2 pyrokinesis
-2 REB
-2 krosan grip
-1 stingscourger
-1 boartusk liege

The idea under this deck is to partially replace aether vials with the mana skirk prospector can generate and with the addition of two warren instigators.
4 skirk prospector, together with the cut of rishadan ports(that without vial become less effective), allow us to always have the red mana we need to cast our recurring punishing fire. The cut of aether vial also keep the goblin count very high (34) despite the add of punishing fire.
I completely eliminated gempalms and tarfires, and i chose to put two sharpshooter main deck because they're really strong with 4 skirk prospector in the deck.I initially had only one sharpshooter and was thinking to play one sparksmith or lightning crafter, but for now i want to rely on the prospector/sharpshooter sinergy. I would like to hear some opinions about lightning crafter aniway: 3 damage per turn seem fantastic and he can't be abrupt decayed. Cutting gempalm have been difficult because he is also a cantrip, but again if i have a recurring removal i don't mind if it gets discarded with hymns. The removal package also sees 2 pyrokinesis entering in the second match.
4 skirk prospector main deck also make the matchup againt jitte/swords/batterskull A LOT easier.
I cut a warchief for a chieftain because warren instigator casting cost is not affected by warchief and with chieftain he is a 2/2 double strike wich is good. I also thought about running 3 warchief/3 chieftain, moving one sharpshooter in side, but i still have to decide.
The only thing that doesn't completely convince me about the deck is that there are only 8 one mana drops, usually i like to have at least ten but i don't want to play some random tarfires or mogg fanatics.
I will be happy to hear any impression and i will let you know if the deck works.

Aether Vial is effectively a mana source.

Cutting Aether Vial and keeping 22 lands seems like a horrendous mistake.

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Originally Posted by BigBopper

If you got a free slot, sleeve up one more piece of goblin artifact hate (TSH).

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Why would you want to have a second Tin-Street Hooligan over the first Tuktuk Scrapper? Since there's a non-zero number of times when you will have Goblin Warchief in play / Vial on 4 / surplus Lackey trigger.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LeoCop 90

I share brad's opinion about lackey and vial in the current metagame, but i don't think the answer to these problems is to change our deck so radically.
If you want to make lackey connect , just play more removals ( like everyone is doing with tarfire / sparksmith / punishing fire ).

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Another card I feel that'd improve Goblin Lackey's ability to connect, and over all survivability, is Apostle's Blessing; it's essentially a colorless counterspell vs control decks and lets you connect with your Goblin Lackey or trade favorably in combat with your Goblin Piledrivers. I think it may have more depth than Tarfire for example, because protecting your Aether Vial from Abrupt Decay is a back breaking play vs BUG and its ilk.

The card is definitely a diamond in the rough, IMO.

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Originally Posted by magicmerl

Cutting Aether Vial and keeping 22 lands seems like a horrendous mistake.

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I'm quite drunk, but from what I get from these posts, this is true. Non vial list should run 24-25 lands. We are manahungry.
Also, 4 Prospectors seem bad.

Played Punishing goblins yesterday. report tomorrow.

I don't know how anyone could ever advocate getting rid of Lackey or Vial. There have been answers to both these cards since forever-ago, but that's no reason to not run them. Left unchecked, these two cards can singlehandedly alter the course of a game.

When it comes to Lackey, sure, he's outclassed power-wise to almost every other creature in Legacy, but he makes the opponent hold back at least one creature to avoid a potential game-swinging counterattack. The argument that Deathrite Shaman can block him with impunity is moot. I can't attack my opponent but he can't attack me either.

With Vial, you really can't go wrong with free, uncounterable, instant-speed creatures. I understand running Prospector if you're also running Sharpshooter, but to try to REPLACE Vial with Prospector is the wrong train of thought IMO. Vial gives you free creatures with a single tap. Prospector on the other hand helps accelerate your board position at the cost of, well, your board position. Adding on to the Vial argument, I've seen a couple posts throughout the thread that basically suggest that Vial isn't needed because we have Caverns. Seriously? Vial frees up mana for other things, Caverns does not. Both cards just happen to provide counter-protection.

But in the end, even with 4 Lackeys, 4 Vials, 4 Warchiefs, and x amount of Prospectors and Instigators, you have to realize that Goblins is a mana-hungry deck, and your tempo generators will most likely see the graveyard in one way or another. The solution to this? Run more lands. I don't expect Lackey or Vial activations left and right. Hell, I bank on them being removed, but I don't worry because I run 24 lands. To that effect, I'm never really in it for a quick game; I'm in it for the long haul, the late game where Goblins shine (unless I'm facing combo, then I cry, lol). It's all a matter of play style though I guess. I don't bank on Lackey connections or Vial activations. If they happen, sweet. If they don't, no biggie because I don't ever miss my land drops.

@ScatmanX: i'm really looking forward to see your repord on Punishing Goblins.

Spoiler time.

http://news.dengeki.com/elem/000/000/580/580617/

[R]
Army Loyalist(?) {R} Rare
Creature - Goblin Soldier
1/1
Haste
Battalion - Whenever ~ and at least two other creatures attack, all creature you control get first strike and trample until end of turn. They cannot be blocked by token creature this turn.

So basically it’s strictly better Raging Goblin. It has some good synergy with Mogg War Marshal, Krenko, Mob Boss and Goblin Piledriver. Also battalion trigger allows to sneak through Germ (Batterskul), Spirit (Lingering Souls) and Angel (Entreat the Angels) tokens. On the other hand it’s just 1/1 beater without other green followers.

He will make a reasonable Goblin Matron target just the same.

The Batallion trigger is almost a given in this deck. The first strike might be the best thing about it since you can now, more or less, attack into anything without to much casualties.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sasan

So why is Karakas good now? ;)

It is colorless mana and makes it harder to cast Liege.

2 Chieftains is the right call as Brad Campell said we need a more explosive play to win. That is also my mind. Without Ports we must be faster as we have less disruption. Chiefs give us a not so bad board state after hymn has ruined our hands. That is why I run Relics. I want to compensate the card losses. Hymn is so badass versus us.

The mana base is ok, I will add a third Plateau instead of one basic mountain.

Sparksmith failed in my tests. I tried to love it and advocated for it. But man is this guy a bad top deck and he needs a hastelord to be good. It is bad when you are totally behind in life totals and ever sparksmited a Goyf and a Tombstalker? Great stuff but you will lose to the next flipped delver. Swords do not have these limitations.

Sharp is still MD Material as we face the mirror, some maverick decks and the rising elves. It is good vs moat and Belcher and ANT (if they cast ETW).

These are my points.

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Karakas can bounce Emrakul, Grieselbrand and co. vs. unfair decks. But it can also be a removal bouncing Thalia, Gaddock Teeg or Clique. Furthermore you can do broken things with a haste lord, Vial@4, Karakas and Krenko-I know this is a 4 card combo, but not that unlikely. It can't be fetched or tutored for and can't produce red mana, but it improves your S'n'T MU.

I never shared the hype about sparksmith. Concerning Maverick I made the experience that it never survives long enough to be active or you have to deal with Mother of Runes or Sylvan Safekeeper. Vs. Elfes and Goblins I keep one in the SB, together with Pyrokinesis. But I think it can be due to playstyle and flavor.

Quote:

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The idea under this deck is to partially replace aether vials with the mana skirk prospector can generate and with the addition of two warren instigators.
4 skirk prospector, together with the cut of rishadan ports(that without vial become less effective), allow us to always have the red mana we need to cast our recurring punishing fire. The cut of aether vial also keep the goblin count very high (34) despite the add of punishing fire.
I completely eliminated gempalms and tarfires, and i chose to put two sharpshooter main deck because they're really strong with 4 skirk prospector in the deck.I initially had only one sharpshooter and was thinking to play one sparksmith or lightning crafter, but for now i want to rely on the prospector/sharpshooter sinergy. I would like to hear some opinions about lightning crafter aniway: 3 damage per turn seem fantastic and he can't be abrupt decayed. Cutting gempalm have been difficult because he is also a cantrip, but again if i have a recurring removal i don't mind if it gets discarded with hymns. The removal package also sees 2 pyrokinesis entering in the second match.
4 skirk prospector main deck also make the matchup againt jitte/swords/batterskull A LOT easier.
I cut a warchief for a chieftain because warren instigator casting cost is not affected by warchief and with chieftain he is a 2/2 double strike wich is good. I also thought about running 3 warchief/3 chieftain, moving one sharpshooter in side, but i still have to decide.
The only thing that doesn't completely convince me about the deck is that there are only 8 one mana drops, usually i like to have at least ten but i don't want to play some random tarfires or mogg fanatics.
I will be happy to hear any impression and i will let you know if the deck works.

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In a regular goblin build you also only have 8-9 1 drops. Without vial you totally loose the ability to play your creatures with instant speed and mana screw your opponent.
NEVER cut Gempalm - it's the best card in this deck, and you can quote me on that. It is uncounterable, it (usually) trades positive, it let's you draw a card-which not neccesary a goblin, but can be a land or post-board a hate piece. Thinking of tutoring with matron I probably get Incinerator as often as ringleader! Everyone outside this threat I afraid of it since there is not a whole lot they can do about it...

About the new Goblin: I think the unblockable token ability is also really cool vs. ANT (Empty) Belcher (Empty) and the latest Garruk (Wolf Token).

The new goblin is great. it will make an appearance in our legacy decks. The question is about the right number. At least one in your 60 but perhaps 2-3 are good, too.

With the common white splash in Goblins right now even Boros Charm can be an option for our deck.

Entreat the angels and batterskull dropped a tear when they saw this new gobbo card.

I believe it is going to take away the slot currently used by sharpshooter, cause it's a blast against any attriction deck (maverick anyone?) and also helps finishing some games.

Ps.: Amazing how ppl were just talking about WoTC not printing good one drops just a few posts ago. =)