[Deck] The Rock

I tried out the Sejiri Steppe tech in the past and really didn't like it.

Here's why:

1) If you don't have Maze out, it means you can't attack with your Knights without risking removal.
2) If you do have Maze out, they can just kill your Knight in response to your Maze activation.
3) It messes with your manabase. We're already running Karakas, Wastelands, sometimes Maze, sometimes Dryad Arbor, sometimes Bojuka Bog - another ETB tapped land that produces only white continues to strain what is already a pretty stressed manabase.

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Here's a Dark Maverick / Junk list I've been idly playing around with:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [U] Bayou
3 [B] Scrubland
1 [5E] Swamp (1)
2 [R] Savannah
3 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [M13] Forest (3)
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [FNM] Mother of Runes
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
3 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)

Testing has been showing that it's... weird. We all know Mom is amazing if you draw her early. Sometimes the deck is awesome and you get Mom + beater out, but sometimes you get the other hands/draws where you lose your beaters to removal THEN draw your Moms.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

If I do have Dryad Arbor in my hand, I usually play it out to get it Wastelanded against a Control deck since you have the time
-Matt

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Nice. I didn't think of that. Playing Arbor will make it look like you don't have any other lands to play, so they could be tempted to Wasteland it.

Problem with that is all those Arbor, Wasteland, Confidant, Knight, Thoughtseize, Library, Goyf hands I manage to draw whenever I put Arbor into a deck, haha.

I'll always have a Dryad Arbor maindeck, if only for Natural Order in the sideboard. It's a different situation with me though...because more often than not I get Arbor with Catacombs/Foothills/Misty (no Heaths in my collection.) Seven out of my eight fetchlands grab Forests, just so I can make sure I have a NO sac target. This is another reason for using Volrath's Stronghold, too...Wasteland can't get rid of Arbor permanently when I can just put it to the top of my library. If they waste Stronghold instead, that's fine. That lets Arbor convert into an angry updrade with torn purple shorts.

I won small local tournament yesterday. I had a lot of fun with lavafrogg list (different SB):

4 Tarmogyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Swords to Plowhares
3 Abropt Decay
1 Umazawa's Jitte

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland

Side:
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umazawa's Jitte
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Engeneerd Explosives
1 Darkblast
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Lingering Souls
1 Garruk, Relentless
1 Life from the Loam


I beat Maverick 2-0, Ant 2-1, High Tide 2-0; I lost to Maverick in the last round 1-2.

The games I lost against Maverick were because of my opponent's - play+instant equip and attack with Jitte - for which I had no answer.
I really enjoyed games against combo - expecially against High Tide - he brainfreezed me for 45 - three cards left in my deck and two Confidants on the table. Drew all three, sacrificed Confidants to Therapies that he milled into my grave - GSZ for zero and win. Great deck - give it a try.

I like the list, but 20 lands feels low to me even with 4 Deathrites.

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

I like the list, but 20 lands feels low to me even with 4 Deathrites.

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same here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by .Ix

Nice. I didn't think of that. Playing Arbor will make it look like you don't have any other lands to play, so they could be tempted to Wasteland it.

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Exactly. It's a game of misinformation at that point. Plus, if they let it live, next turn you just muck them with Cabal Therapy. A good play I've been trying recently is:

T1: GSZ on 0 for Arbor off a Bayou
T2: Cabal Therapy, attack for 1, Cabal Therapy.

That's pretty decent.

-Matt

I had the same feelings in the first place but it works. I lost two rounds in three tournaments so far. (Maverick, Mud)
No knights, only six cards for 3, 4 zenith, 3 library, 4 shaman. Your topdecks are much better. Two three lands is all you ever need.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

A good play I've been trying recently is:

T1: GSZ on 0 for Arbor off a Bayou
T2: Cabal Therapy, attack for 1, Cabal Therapy.

That's pretty decent.

-Matt

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Definitely good considering you don't even have to make a second land drop for that line. If you get to Wasteland something after that you're WAY ahead. Because of Therapy and the disruption angle, this deck gains a lot more from Arbor than both Elves and Maverick.

I like it better than Hymn to Tourach...I've actually dropped them from my list for now. I know it's a 2-for-1 but I think what makes Rock/Junk better than Jund is that rather than getting card advantage we're always 'trading up.' The quality of our plays are better than opponents, and if we are getting an extra higher quality play each turn with Bob/Library, that's how we achieve advantage. I have found that I like my Volrath's Stronghold and full set of Wastelands too much to try and get something like Hymn to work consistently. Liliana is worth the risk and Eternal Witness is for late game anyways (and can be done with GSZ.) Everything else rewards me for having a diversified mana base, and allows me to ride basic lands if need be. Hymn just can't be pulled off with only basics, at least I haven't figured it out. I still need a Karakas, but other than that, I'm settled for now. The only question is whether to use Duress or IoK. IoK still gets Show and Tell, Duress gets countermagic. Testing is in order.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

The only question is whether to use Duress or IoK. IoK still gets Show and Tell, Duress gets countermagic. Testing is in order.

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Duress can grab Omniscience and Sneak Attack (figured I'd stay with the SnT matchup). If IOK could grab Grislebrand or Emrakul I'd say go with that but, for now, I'd advise Duress over IOK.

Someone help me out here.
I just can't quite grasp why everyone in this thread is running 3 Sylvan Libraries.
It just seems bad, even in testing for me.
Even the best players I know don't understand (albeit none of them play junk.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kpicco

Someone help me out here.
I just can't quite grasp why everyone in this thread is running 3 Sylvan Libraries.
It just seems bad, even in testing for me.
Even the best players I know don't understand (albeit none of them play junk.)

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I don't like more than 1 library either, and I usually run top instead (orsometimes a split). But the reasons are (I guess): the deck already runs from 8 to 16 1-drops; most junk players now say that top is an early mana sink - they also say that library draws cards, while top does not; and 3 libraries because they want to find it fast, and the first one will probably be decayed. As for me, I like library, but I can't play bob without top.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kpicco

Someone help me out here.
I just can't quite grasp why everyone in this thread is running 3 Sylvan Libraries.
It just seems bad, even in testing for me.
Even the best players I know don't understand (albeit none of them play junk.)

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Not everyone plays 3 but, the card functions in a similar way to top (see the top 3 cards) but it also allows you to draw multiple cards and has no post-cast mana investment. You only really do the fetch --> look --> repeat(?) thing with top when you're in a desperate situation. That's become less relevant as the list(s) have been becoming more consistent (more players play/test the deck).

This next part is going to sound bad but read it all before you judge - people who don't play junk should offer advise but, trusting them on the decks design or play-style at face value is a losing bet. Most people's thoughts help us get more info and can sometimes be insightful but a logical* reason should be required as to why something is/should be different before a permanent** change should be made. So, additional input, even from players of any level, can be incorrect*** but should be welcome. Just remember to always ask them why they think it.

* The reason should make sense to a 4-5 year old child as well as a seasoned chess master. If it wouldn't convince both, it's not real logic****.
** No change or card should be looked at as permanent. Everything should always be on the chopping block.
*** Good player does not equal good deck builder, or vice versa.
**** Unless you're trying to convince AJ Ka... don't care enough to look it up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kpicco

Someone help me out here.
I just can't quite grasp why everyone in this thread is running 3 Sylvan Libraries.
It just seems bad, even in testing for me.
Even the best players I know don't understand (albeit none of them play junk.)

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Library is the single most powerful card in the deck. Hands down. I snap keep almost any hand that has 1-2 libraries in it. Any single deck that can possibly kill it or stop it, will. They likely won't stop the second though.

Library is the auto counter, auto discard, auto destroy, depending on whether it's on the stack in your hand or in play. It probably seems bad in testing because no one is doing shit to it. You pretty much need to see it and it's so stupidly powerful that I never care about having two. Sometimes I discard the other to Liliana if it's truly dead, which is fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sughayyer

I don't like more than 1 library either, and I usually run top instead (orsometimes a split). But the reasons are (I guess): the deck already runs from 8 to 16 1-drops; most junk players now say that top is an early mana sink - they also say that library draws cards, while top does not; and 3 libraries because they want to find it fast, and the first one will probably be decayed. As for me, I like library, but I can't play bob without top.

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I've been playing Bob with just Library since Matt Pavlic instructed me to run 3 libraries and I've never looked back. Bob doesn't actually do that much damage to you to warrant the requirement and mana sink of Top. Think about it--Bob either instantly dies or he stays alive. If he stays alive you'll very likely win the game. If he dies it's fine and things are normal. Your life total in this deck almost doesn't matter, I regularly destroy myself with library and bob--but it doesn't matter. The games I lose are when I simply have no board position, and no amount of top decks will save me.

Bob on average will probably do about 1 damage per turn over the course of N turns in The Rock. Rock is also a deck that curves out pretty well, so at what time do you activate top? Turn 1 top, turn 2 bob/goyf/decay, can't top, turn 3 knight/liliana/lingering souls, can't top, so now top has just sat there for two turns doing nothing. No top means you're more open to do things like turn 1 discard into turn 2 library which puts you stupidly far ahead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kpicco

Someone help me out here.
I just can't quite grasp why everyone in this thread is running 3 Sylvan Libraries.
It just seems bad, even in testing for me.
Even the best players I know don't understand (albeit none of them play junk.)

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This is actually a really good question that I get from everyone. "Why play 3 Sylvan Library? It's SO bad in multiples!"

There's an old magic addage from a while back that I'll quote.

Play 4 if you want to see it every game, at least once and maybe twice.
Play 3 if you want to see it almost every game, probably once.
Play 2 if you want to see if every few games, now and then.
Play 1 if you only want it once in a while or you have a tutor for it.

I'm playing 3 because I want to see it in a game, but 4 is too much. Sylvan is bonkers because against decks where you need the cards and have the life, you just turn 16 life points into 4 extra cards over the course of your game, and usually more since your guys bite a Swords to Plowshares, allowing an extra 1-2 cards drawn. Against something like Miracle Control, it spells game over.

The main problem lately with Top is Tempo decks love to take advantage of you sinking mana into spinning Top. Say you get a Top down and then you're low on mana. You spin Top and then are unable to cast as many spells as quickly. Any Tempo player now Wastelands you, Dazes you, or presents a threat while you're busy paying to look at cards. Even in a non-tempo scenario, the main advantage of Top is looking mid-turn and it is harder to Abrupt Decay. I don't think we have the time anymore to play around with mana in the early game with Top. Sylvan allows us to "set it and forget it" (remember the infomercial?) and then either look or just draw extra cards. Miracle Control loves Top since they also had Brainstorm to help and Terminus to make the looking worthwhile, whereas we do not.

It's about spending your mana on cards to play, and life to find those cards instead of using the same resource (mana) to both find AND play them. There's only so many things you can do at one time with so many resources, and in a format as cutthroat as Legacy, you cannot afford to be inefficient.

I'd still run 1-2 Top if I had room. The card is good when it's good, but for different reasons. Right now, there's better cards than Top.

As for running "so many" Libraries, the case is this. You want to see it, so playing one means you'll see it once in a while, maybe. Once Sylvan lands, you usually win the game. The first thing I Abrupt Decay when playing against Maverick or something is the Sylvan if I can, since it just takes you so far ahead of your opponent. Being able to follow it up with another if need be is crucial. My BUg Landstill opponent Force of Willed my Sylvan Library in Game 2 on Turn 2 and had to nut himself a bit. The play was worth it though, since otherwise, I just draw 4 cards and he dies. Instead, I drew another Library turns later THEN killed him.

TL: DR

You know when you play it that it's a good card, and you'd think to max out on good cards so you can win more. Then why do people suggest a lone Sylvan Library? Play 2-3 so you can see it. If you have multiples, big deal. You can ditch it to Liliana, bluff it as another card, or play the second to gain marginal advantage when drawing extra.

-Matt

Also, I'm still planning on continuing with articles, but school is still too busy :/

-Matt

No need for me to beat this horse; it's already quite dead. I just want to reinforce what Kich was saying about Bob: the bastard barely lives more than a turn or so. The way I see it, you're paying two mana to force your opponent to discard a removal or counter spell. Then the goof stumbles in to maul them.

I was playing against my buddy at Edison, he was on punishing Mav; I was at 9 life, and I slammed down two Bobs on an empty table. I won the game at 3 life, because Bobs drew me lands and removal spells. He hurts us, but he helps up so much more; I don't even side him out against Burn, since I want the extra discard and possibility to draw into something like Jitte.