If you are going deep in the white splash, you can try Humility and educate people about layers.
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If you are going deep in the white splash, you can try Humility and educate people about layers.
I thought about this, but imperial recruiter can grab like every hate bearQuote:
Originally Posted by L10
This is similar to the list I run, I have run the helm rip combo in it for a while and it has improved all of my match ups. It gives extra outs and is secret tech.Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosjace
Isn't E. Tutor just better? It's a 1 mana tutor that can get any one of the missing Two Card Monte pieces, as well as Ethersworn Canonist and Blood Moon.
Another benefit is that it's instant. That is a game saver and it enabless us to respond to any threat quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
@ Chaos- With that list I can not see how 3 E tutor doesn't just make that better. It is very similar to the sideboard plan that I have been running for over three years at this point. RiP is an amazing card and does work wonders in some match ups.
It may be time to come up with an updated "core" list of cards for the deck moving forward. I am not really up on the finer points of the meta anymore but I hazard a guess 53 or so cards are roughly the same. I will work on something over the next 48 hours or so.
I have to say I am really looking forward to getting back to weekly legacy. I may not always play Painter but it seems fun again.
Seth
i wanted more drawable threats/answers, utilizing recruiter. Canonist was a thought because storm will probably take off again, e tutor is probably still the way to go I admit. I was also just thinking about e tutor and predict + goblin welder.
Agreed. In this list etutor seems like a no brainer. I don't k ow if it makes more sense to play rip/helm main or as an alt win in the board. Obviously rip and welder don't play well together so I guess you would ha e to pick one or the other. The one nice tho g about rip right now is that DRT is everywhere.
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Everything thing I've been playing around with, nothing worth posting or discussing keeps coming you the same conclusion. E Tutor is still just the best tutor.
.I think main board RIP + helm may be the way to go now. Obviously fights welder, but will hurt a lot of bug decks, and improves our combo chance vs SnT.
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What I've done is actually only put 1 helm and 1 RIP main so that the combo is there if I need to tutor it up, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish
I run 2 welders because they make the opponent use their counters/removal and also help make the main combo (as well as our hate tech) more resilient.
Now that miracles is gone it makes e tutor a lot better (how many people will waste a force on it?), all miracles had to do was float a 1 mana spell and we were shut down.
I honestly don't think the problem is having another combo in the main, I think that is just going to decrease consistency. From playing a couple of leagues it seems like the biggest problem is that we basically are out of cards by turn 4-5 and have no mana efficient way of smoothing out our draws. Chandra is great but i've found that almost every game she gets needled game 2 and I just stare losing to a board of irrelevant cards. Boarding has also gotten quite different, I think now we can't board out our e-tutors in grindy games since we have no other way find what we are looking for. I think that we either need some removal spells main now or have a way to dig i.e. nahiri.
Sorry for the very rough report ahead of time! Played in my weekly with BR Painter, my biggest mistake is not being aggressive enough with mulligans. But generally speaking I am enjoying the deck a lot. Open to any and all suggestions!
EDIT:Oops looks like I forgot my sideboard added.
Meta:
BUG Delver x2
Burn
BR Reanimator
Eldrazi
Death and Taxes
Merfolk
Storm
Manaless Dredge
Infect
Nic Fit
Mavrick
Aggro Loam
Affinity/Tezz
Decklist
20 Lands
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7 Sol Lands
5 Fetch
2 Badlands
1 Swamp
2 Great Furnace
3 Mountains
12 Creatures
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4 Goblin Welder
4 Painters Servant
1 Spellskite
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Sundering Titan
12 Artifacts
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4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Grindstone
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Planeswalkers
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2 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Enchantments
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4 Blood Moon
8 Spells
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3 Entomb
4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
Sideboard:
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4 Leyline of the Void
2 Slaughter Games
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Pithing Needle
1 Trinisphere
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Round 1: Infect
Game 1:Play - Hand:City, Tomb, Fetch, Welder, Pyroblast, Recuiter, Blood Moon
My Turn 1 Fetch > Mountain > Welder
>>>Opp Turn 1 GW Fetch
My Turn 2 Ancient Tomb > Blood Moon > Dazed
>>>Opp Turn 2 Trop (found with fetch to use for daze)
My Turn 3 City > Recruiter finding Spellskite
>>>Opp Turn 3 Pendalhaven > Blighted Agent
My Turn 4 Spellskite > Pyroblast Blighted Agent > Opponent scoops
Game 2:Draw - Mulligan x1 Hand:Tomb, Chrome, Pyroblast, Spellskite, Welder, Fetch (scry Chandra to top)
Opp Turn 1 Pendalhaven > Infect guy
>>>My Turn 1 Tomb > Mox > Imprint Chandra > Spellskite > OPP FORCE > Blast > Opponent Scoops
Score 1-0
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Round 2: D&T
Game 1:Draw - Hand: City x2, Painter, Grindstone, Petal x2, Mountain
>>>Turn 2 Kill after wastelanding my city
Game 2:Draw - Fetch, Badlands, Welder, Entomb, Sundering Titan, Sol Land, Blood Moon
>>>Opp Turn 2 Rest in peace > Drawing all Entombs and blasts with no combo peices.
Games 3: Keep bridge+moon hand>Draw all moons, and 8 lands fold to myself.
Score 1-1
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Round 3: Affinity
Game 1:Play - Fetch, Mountain, Welder, Entomb, Tomb, Grindstone, Blast
>>>Turn 3 kill with Entomb+Welder
Game 2:Draw - 2x Sol, Painter, Grindstone, 1 Fetch, 1 Badlands, Bridge
>>>Turn 4 kill naturally with her G.Cage out.
Score 2-1
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Round 4: Manaless
Game 1: Draw
>>>Opp muls to 6 have a Natural Turn 3 kill hand
Game 2: Play
>>>Turn 2 Bridge>Sluaghter Games on Dread Return locks him out
Score 3-1
I would say that a singleton grave hate spell in the main that is tutorable is a good idea. As someone who has pushed for the RiP/Helm combo in the board for years I do not think that the combo is good in the main however. Its weak interactions with Blood Moon are the main reason. I usually bring it in in place of the Blood Moons bc against sneak and show and other spaghetti monster decks moon doesn't do much. Like wise, for dredge you don't need Moons. The only real issue is Lands. That is teh match up I have kept both cards in the deck together. I think once people start testing they will see that the draws are clunky with RiP and Moon effects in the main.
I also think that Jaya should be in everyone's maindeck still. She is one of the strongest answers, along with EE that you have. Both are tutorable, solve countless troublesome cards and are very mana efficient.
I am going to pick up a play set of intuition on MTGO this weekend and run some trials with the deck I think.
As the meta settles we will also have a better idea if we should be using a planeswalker and which one. Pending splash, you have a lot of viable options, and which one is best is variable, but it is hard to decide which one is the best. After playing so much vintage I sort of want to just have a deck with 4 Wedler and 2 Dack as that seems like crazy card advantage after a couple turns. But that also seems just bad in terms of what the deck is trying to do. But right now I think it is too hard to figure out which walker we want, but I think that should factor into the deck construction decisions moving forward.
Seth
Im going to start testing a very subtle tweak. I think the deck can still love off the back of blood moon in many up the coming matchups. Grindfests may not even be what they once were due to blood moon or bridge buying us nearly then rest of the game to set up through natural draws and tutors.
-3 top (obviously)
+ 2 gamble (even hell-bent it's good with welder)
+ 1 spellskite (always liked this guy, and decay will be popular... And protecting welder is even more important now)
I'll let ya know how it goes. Were not the only ones adjusting to the meta, so maybe losing top won't be as bad as I think since other parts of the deck may get even better.
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Similar to Seth, after talking with him post-ban I thought of intuition as a potential replacement. Ran this maindeck through two leagues. Both 3-2 so there's promise, just lots to learn after shortcaking for so long. Not posting a board since it's a mess and I ran two different ones each time and still have no clue how I want to approach it.
4 imperial recruiter
4 painter's servant
3 Goblin Welder
1 magus of the moon
1 jaya Ballard task Mage
1 simian spirit guide
2 lotus petal
2 chrome mox
4 Grindstone
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Blood moon
4 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
3 firebolt
2 intuition
2 dack fayden
1 Chandra torch of defiance
4 Ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
2 volcanic island
2 wooded foothills
2 bloodstained mire
2 great furnace
4 mountain
This maindeck is surprisingly sexy with a lot more going on than you might initially think. Part of that is intuition just being a beast with its various piles, but also secret value in stuff like chrome mox+painter under blood moon and dack ultimates with non-painter pyroblasts and firebolt theft. Intuition for 3 firebolt is obviously insane as well. This is what I came up with while brainstorming as a first draft, so clearly there is a lot to still think about and tweak and see if it is even a good idea longer term
I like the idea of a recruiter/moon heavy UR build, still a distinctly different deck than the traditional UR painter-stone lists. One concern is that the white silver bullets were very good at fixing some of our worst matchups, particularly storm, which is very heavily played at the moment, although we'll see how the meta shapes itself over the next few months. Miracles being out of the picture does free up sideboard slots though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
Well yea I didn't mention my board yet but I slanted it heavily towards the combo matchup for these runs, on the permission side. I'm talking full playset flusterstorm as well as some number of FOWs. I reason that between the combo threat plus blasts with painter AND additional permission that it should be pretty favorableQuote:
Originally Posted by pinkfrosting
My only concern with Intuition post board is that if you do not play the tutored card immediately, you can get got by Surgical Extraction. I do not see that card becoming less popular.
That was the first card I thought off when I saw your UR build. Your build looks pretty spicy and I think i'm going to try it out, in my general experience i've found that Dack ends up being more cute than actually good but I think that he can provide us with the mid to late game boost that we need. I share the concerns as pinkfrosting though in regards to losing valuable hate pieces. Do you feel like with the Ru the plan postboard in combo matchups is just going to be racing i.e. you board in LEDs or something with some minor disruption spells? I'd be curious to hear what you have played against in your past couple of leagues. I also agree with L10 on the surgical comment although that might possibly change depending on which decks become popular in the upcoming months. UR has historically just been able to fight through that with just straight force of will, we don't really have the same abilities though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
It's a shame that Llawan is a 2/3 though and I almost missed the cute interaction between painter and chrome mox.
I do not think I would worry about Surgical Extraction. I mean it has always existed as a card, but it does little to beat reanimator lists or dredge really. People will play it but careful play with WElder can cover your ass. And sometimes you just lose. It is impossible to not have any weaknesses. That is the beauty of Legacy, there is always an answer and I would not let that stop you. On the other side of that argument is the fact that DRS is still around which would really be the reason not to go heavy on the Welder. That is the real issue we need to wait and see on.
Before moving off white I tried a slightly reworked list. Went 4-1 in a league after running through 10 or so matches, losing to a mull to oblivion against Enchantress. Beat BUG, BUG, reanimator, and grixis. Deck felt good, maybe off by one land. In general the Faithless Lootings were helpful. Not the same as SDT, but really nice to get rid of bricks and give me something to do with my mana. Firebolt was fucking awesome as always. I still am on the AJani as my Planeswalker of choice in a white shell. I understand the other choices, but I just really his ability to help tie up mana or creatures as needed. With DST his removal and lifegain are also really strong. But to be fair Chandra could be the correct choice. I am sometimes too slow to change.
Below find the list as a starting point
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 MOuntains
3 plateau
4 fetch lands
3 lotus petal
3 E tutor
2 faithless looting
2 goblin welder
6 blast effects
4 grindstone
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
4 Painter's Servant
1 Peacekeeper
4 Imperial Recruiter
3 SSG
1 Jaya Ballard
1 magus of the moon
4 Blood Moon
2 Ajani Vengeant
Side
1 Ethersworn cannonist
4 rest in peace
4 firebolt
1 blast effect
1 stingscouger
1 magus of the moon
1 tormods crypt
1 helm
1 ee
A quick note, yes there is like no storm hate there. That will change. I know the cards I would need there, most of the weird choices in the board were just to see what other cards I should consider. At this time I undersatnd I am giving up a lot of percentage points to storm, although I do think the board is less important in the match up and it is more about aggressive mulling and just fucking luck.
Seth