[Primer] Elves!

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Originally Posted by plowshares

What do you guys think about running 1 crop rotation as an "explosive fifth cradle"? With all of these storm and sneak and show decks everywhere, I feel like adding in cards like crop rotation, which makes us a bit faster combo deck is not a terrible idea. I'm currently running the stock list that focuses on combo game 1, and not running utility guys main deck.

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That's an interesting angle. If the only purpose of that is to race other combo decks, then you would want to be sure to have the 4th Natural Order in there as well. Also, you might want a MD Ruric Thar if you are really gunning for combo that hard. What would you cut for this Crop Rotation? And is Cradle really the card that wins you the matchup in these scenarios? I think going to 4 NO, 1 Ruric main is probably more effective. Also making sure you have plenty of discard in the board. When I'm racing another combo deck, I'm not sure that a Cradle is necessarily what I need the most. I would imagine that I'd want a Natural Order and 4 mana and that's it. The idea may be more clever/cute than effective. I haven't seen Sneak and Show running around in quite awhile, although I would agree that Storm is on the rise. Having a MD Crop Rotation was commonplace back in the day before 4 Cradles MD was standard. Again, I'm not sure a 5th Cradle is better than the 4th NO + Ruric. That random Crop Rotation would also suck pretty hard against the Delver decks. That's just some food for thought.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

Sup guys, I'm playing the following:

4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven

4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Craterhoof Behemmoth

4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature

SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
SB: 1 Progenitus

I have a few questions:

1) How many discard pieces in the sideboard? I've seen that most lists run 6. I've started with 6, but dropped 1 therapy in favor of Ruric Thar, that's awesome against combo, and makes your speedy hands without discard worth keeping.

2) How necessary is Progenitus? I find myself boarding him in a lot of matchups. The only real way to stop him is Liliana and Toxic Deluge, and it's pretty much a guaranteed win if NO resolves. I usually board him when I expect red decks with Pyroclasm.

3) 3/1 Split of Decay/K.Grip. Should I go to 4 decays?

4) How many of you are playing Crop Rotation? I think getting 2-for-1 by permission really sucks, and it can outweight the benefits.

Thanks in advance.

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1. If you want to beat up combo, I'd keep the 6 discard and cut something else for Ruric. From your list, I'd probably cut a Pithing Needle. 6 discard is pretty standard. I don't see the logic of head hunting combo decks by cutting a combo SB card only to replace it with another combo SB card. If anything, wouldn't you wanna increase the total number of combo SB cards? Also, Cabal Therapy is your best card vs combo. Well, aside from Ruric Thar in play.

2. Progenitus is mostly helpful in matchups where we are already favored. I have cut him entirely due to the feelbads of drawing him more often than I'm able to NO him into play. If you have plenty of Pyroclasm decks running around then sure, keep him in. But from what I recall, only Miracles and weirdo RUG Delver players ever touch Pyroclasm. And Prog isn't the best guy in those matchups.

3. Depends on your meta. K.Grip is more versatile, perhaps. I think Julian likes it over the 4th Decay. Decay is better vs Delver decks.

4. Here's who plays Crop Rotation: elfbros who can't afford 4 Cradles and are using Rotations as proxy Cradles until they can get enough $$ for the real thing. There's no shame in that. And 2 Cradle/2 Rotation used to be the standard before the Legend rule allowed us to rock 4 Cradles.

You shouldn't feel like you need to change up your SB just because some schlub posts a Top 8 list with his meta-specific sideboard. Nobody can tell you how to customize your sideboard better than YOU. I get the feeling that you're trying to adhere to some kinda SB Standard List that doesn't necessarily exist. You fly free, my elven child, and determine your own destiny!

vandal, you are on 72 of my 75, so I definitely approve. ;)

I like 4 decay but that's because the regional meta here feels like it is over 50% delver/stoneblade.

grip is amazing vs humility, moat, top, and omniscience, but everywhere else I like decay.

and yea, ruric might be due for his yearly appearance due to recent metagame shifts =/

I have removed my 6 discard and plays with 4 elvish spirit guids instead, nothing as fun as a turn 1 kill against combo... :)

And often turn 2 NO.

throw in some summoners pacts and I'm sold.

Turn one win off spirit guide? Off just one? What would that look like?

So turn one. Spirit guide for..nettle I guess. (5 in hand) Forest. Birchlore? (3in hand) Tap and cast another nettle. (2). Tap for glimpse. Tap for heritage Druid. Hope you only draw creatures?

Am I missing something, because that sounds magical Christmas land. Or do you need two guides in hand?

Speaking of Elvish spirit guide, is there a reason we don't run it? I understand it can lead to bad 2 for 1s, but right now, it seems like if you trim 1 land, 1 nettle, 1 heritage druid, and 1 more of another card, it can create really explosive starts.

Y'all are gettin outta dayum control.

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Originally Posted by AznSeal

Speaking of Elvish spirit guide, is there a reason we don't run it? I understand it can lead to bad 2 for 1s, but right now, it seems like if you trim 1 land, 1 nettle, 1 heritage druid, and 1 more of another card, it can create really explosive starts.

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Well, the issue is we have a number of bad starting hands already as it stands.
I can't think of a lot of starting hands where I'D want ESG, really. Unless you're doing fancy stuff with your NOs.
Sure, ESG enables a lot more T2/T3 NOs, however, assuming you're only running Craterhoof I doubt that makes for a faster kill than another 1 drop.
Basically youll get something like this.

Turn 2 NO will do like 7 dmg and end up a 2 turn clock without interaction.
Turn 3 NO is not lethal everytime either, unless it involves a glimpse turn with Cradle, in which case the ESG probably helps less than another 1 drop would've.
Turn 4 onwards obviously you'd much rather get an additional body and +1+1 rather than a mana (and yes, ESG is hardcastable, but for thrice the mana of anything you'd cut for it :P).

Then again I suppose you have a higher chance to have one more untapped dude thanks to the mana IF you have enough 1cmc guys in your drawn cards before NO'ing, so there is some upside too.

Overall I don't think its worth it for Craterhoof, but if your NOing into something else doing that a turn earlier can of course be awesome. Also youll catch some Daze's off guard with ESGs, so thats also kind of cute.
Talking about small Edges a 3 drop dude will win a game against Counterbalance Top every 1000 or so games too I suppose ;)

I guess

Isn't it all about T1 Land + DRS/GSZ(Arbor) and T2 Land + ESG -> NO -> Ruric only? I don't get why you guys think of Hoof if the topic clearly was about racing combo. Jesus :/

Aside from the beforementioned scenario, I feel ESG is horribly underpowered to do anything with a lasting impact and is straight carddisadvantage. I'm not interrested in trying the card outside of pure combo builds.

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Originally Posted by GerMagic

Overall I don't think its worth it for Craterhoof, but if your NOing into something else doing that a turn earlier can of course be awesome. Also youll catch some Daze's off guard with ESGs, so thats also kind of cute.

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Thats why I included that part, Lemnear :P

The issue with "Well, ESG is for Ruric!" is obviously that you don't want to search Ruric in many MUs and I think in those the ESG will be worse than any 1 drop most of the time.
Thats why I specifically included Craterhoof - since he's still the most common NO target at the very least G1, and we imo shouldn't view ESG as an anti-combo card only, unless whoever suggested ESG wants to play 4 in the SB :P

I do agree with you carddisadvantage statement obviously too.

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Originally Posted by GerMagic

Thats why I specifically included Craterhoof - since he's still the most common NO target at the very least G1, and we imo shouldn't view ESG as an anti-combo card only, unless whoever suggested ESG wants to play 4 in the SB :P

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That is exactly what they said?

The only thing I can think of here is to see ESG as a poor man's Cradle (since both are ritual spells, one's just better then the other). If you want to go for the full on combo route, I think it would be better to just run 4 Heritage Druids and 4 Birchlores rather than going "here's a mana, YOLO!". Those actually help you advance your gameplan by being a castable creature and making more then 1 mana with haste. T1, you drop a dork, T2 you Glimpse/drop your hand and T3 you NO FTW (ideally speaking).

Once every 50 or so games you'll have the luck of playing vs. a doorknob and all the stars aligning just right so you can get that T2 kill.

So the elve's community lost someone : http://www.starcitygames.com/article...o-Move-On.html (Ross Merrian)

Do you think the actual meta is bad for elves ?

It's considerably less favorable then it used to be. I've been running Manaless Dredge ever since TC and UR Delver made their first appearance.

I must admit that Manaless Dredge has been losing some ground too due to Storm-variants exploiting the combo-friendly meta. Every discard they cast pretty much gives them a Timewalk against my deck.

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Originally Posted by chewemy

So the elve's community lost someone : http://www.starcitygames.com/article...o-Move-On.html (Ross Merrian)

Do you think the actual meta is bad for elves ?

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Since everyone is prepared for Pyromancer, EtW tokens and Elves by playing either sweepers or combo themselves, the field isn't quite inviting to run Elves. The fact that I personally cut EtW from my storm Maindeck is somehow telling for peeps knowing me a but better ;)

I really need help figuring out my elf deck's sideboard. I'm main-boarding Reclamation Sage and Scavaging Ooze as I prefer to be a toolbox deck. I also have a 1/1 split of 1 Craterhoof and 1 Regal Force. My sideboard so far consists of 1 Craterhoof, 1 Ruric Thar, 1 Progenitus, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Cabal Therapy, 4 Abrupt Decay. Any tips on the sideboard would be appreciated as well as a staple starting sideboard to look at (this primer's sideboard guide is out of date so I'm ignoring it).

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Originally Posted by Brentane

I really need help figuring out my elf deck's sideboard. I'm main-boarding Reclamation Sage and Scavaging Ooze as I prefer to be a toolbox deck. I also have a 1/1 split of 1 Craterhoof and 1 Regal Force. My sideboard so far consists of 1 Craterhoof, 1 Ruric Thar, 1 Progenitus, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Cabal Therapy, 4 Abrupt Decay. Any tips on the sideboard would be appreciated as well as a staple starting sideboard to look at (this primer's sideboard guide is out of date so I'm ignoring it).

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You can find examples for sideboards on websites like MTGTop8.com. SB Craterhoof and running Regal Force at all has no reason I can imagine

To quote danyul:

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Originally Posted by danyul

You fly free, my elven child, and determine your own destiny!

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That, and browse around on this board. SB's are hugely meta-dependant.

hostile meta or not...I do not have access to someone with a large legacy collection, nor do I have enough cards to make a second tier one deck. So elves is it for me-- and I'm fine with that because despite Ross's conclusions about the deck, I think it's still good (and the two elves players who landed in top 16 of the same event as him probably agree).

Playing through hate bears, forked bolts, and recalls is not new to me. Challenge accepted.

I think this meta gives good opportunities for elves to run away with it within the year. Fast com I decks, which hurt us, are looking strong, so soon force of will will be everywhere. Force of will is a pain for us but honestly I like FoW heavy metas because it smashes down the decks we are weaker against and it doesn't hurt us as much.

So I see the combo rise continuing for a bit longer, then FOW and combo, then combo will wane fast, giving us the perfect opportunity.

This all assumes no weirdness with te ban list.