[Deck] Death and Taxes

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06-12-2015, 01:39 AM
carefulmug

Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

Quote:

That said, I have some generic information that you may find useful.

I logged in just to say what followed is perhaps the most level and balanced post I've read in any forum. Cheers, Finn, and thank you!
06-12-2015, 09:25 AM
RingoDeathStarr

Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

Quote:

Originally Posted by carefulmug

I logged in just to say what followed is perhaps the most level and balanced post I've read in any forum. Cheers, Finn, and thank you!

Absolutely agree with this, thank you Finn.
06-13-2015, 05:08 PM
Bahra

Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

Just played an epic game 3 against MUD in which I had to fight through: Ugin, Ratchet Bomb, Platinum Empirion, 4 Wurmcoil Engines, 4 Lodestone Golems and a couple of turns of Trading Post + Spine of Ish Sah and almost decking :laugh:

He ended the game by playing Chalice on 15 and then conceding.

http://i.imgur.com/BLNEu66.jpg
06-13-2015, 08:45 PM
Finn

Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

That is epic.

I do not like games like that as much as I bet most do. We have tools, sure. I mean, you apparently got the guy to concede. But nothing does quite what is supposed to. I prefer the minimalist matches when every mana has to be spent properly and big plays are hard to come by.

Thanks for the feedback, fellas. I can be counted on to bore you with history lessons in place of tactical advice.
06-13-2015, 11:16 PM
lavafrogg

Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Finn

Eh. I do not have the degree of insider knowledge on this stuff that I used to. I bet there are several posters in this thread who have better insight. I hope they are kind enough to make their thoughts known. That said, I have some generic information that you may find useful.

A long time ago, I complained that the color white did not have a practical finisher. Exalted Angel was the card of choice at the birth of Legacy. But it was only reasonable with sol lands, so not practical. We got Stoneforge Mystic. Not what I thought I was looking for, but D+T used this card for an amazingly long time before any of the Stoneblade decks came about - and it clearly works. Sometime after that I said that what this deck needs is a Glowrider that costs 2. We got it and, well, awesome. As the format has gotten stronger I have been hoping out loud that we would get a card that looks a lot like this:

white's wet dream
creature - thingie
:w:
When ~this~ enters the battlefield, you may discard a creature card. If you do, search your library for a white creature card and put it in your hand. If you don't, sacrifice ~this~.
1/1

Or something like that. It is aggressively priced, but probably not OP because of the strict requirements. We do not have it, but Imperial Recruiter is a sorta facsimile of it. Kinda. I am tickled that Bahra has begun this experiment. I have been wondering about it for quite some time, and never put in the time to find out if it can fly. Thing is though, green has some similar tools in Zenith, Teeg, and company. You could take the deck in that direction also, as many have. In the end you get Maverick. It is a good deck, to be sure. But it does not perform as well as D+T because you both gain and lose when you make the switch. The jury is still out on whether the gain from Imperial is worth the loss.

So I definitely want it to work. But there have been a lot of ideas that have come and gone to this deck. A lot of good ones, in fact. It is just that the bar is very high for Legacy. I am doubtful that the splash is straight-up better. The more likely scenario is that it is markedly improves some while diluting most others. Is that a net gain? I guess that depends on which of those decks have more format presence, which is a big, complicated topic.

I don't feel that the red splash adds anything that the main deck is lacking. Magus of the moon it redundant to what the mono white main board already does, tax opposing mana bases, and sudden demise helps against elves and other creature decks, but white has the best hatebears for combo.

Opening the deck to mana problems ie stifle/port/wasteland on a essentially 3 color manabase(wastes/ports/red and white) is going against one of the main reason death and taxes is so consistent.

The imperial recruiter is super cool and flashy to grab whatever techy card you need at the moment but I am not sure that a 3 cost tutor is what the deck needs to succeed.

The only splash I can see viable is green for gaddock teeg, the best hatebear, to help against control. Which is also protected by karakas and vial at 2.
06-13-2015, 11:51 PM
Curby

Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

Yup, there's been a lot of interest in Teeg and Pridemage over on MTGS. Sylvan Library is always great too, especially with Stoneforge and a couple of fetches to shuffle.
06-14-2015, 12:51 AM
lavafrogg

Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirbysdl

Yup, there's been a lot of interest in Teeg and Pridemage over on MTGS. Sylvan Library is always great too, especially with Stoneforge and a couple of fetches to shuffle.

Teeg is just boss and pridemage helps keep Omnitell down, kills equipment and all of the random enchantments/artifacts you can see in legacy and at worst has exalted.

Salvation also keeps playing with Yidan and Fauna Shaman.... Both seem super slow... Just like recruiter. Side note: neither of them cost 200 dollars...
06-14-2015, 01:46 AM
Curby

Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

Quote:

Originally Posted by lavafrogg

and Fauna Shaman

I don't think anyone's talked too seriously about that one, TBH. Searching the Legacy thread for "fauna" and "shaman" both yield zero results. I was interested in Yisan's promise, but it does indeed seem too slow. 2 mana more than Stoneforge to cast and activate, and no immediate card replacement.
06-14-2015, 02:14 AM
Bahra

Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

Quote:

Originally Posted by lavafrogg

I don't feel that the red splash adds anything that the main deck is lacking. Magus of the moon it redundant to what the mono white main board already does, tax opposing mana bases, and sudden demise helps against elves and other creature decks, but white has the best hatebears for combo.

Opening the deck to mana problems ie stifle/port/wasteland on a essentially 3 color manabase(wastes/ports/red and white) is going against one of the main reason death and taxes is so consistent.

The imperial recruiter is super cool and flashy to grab whatever techy card you need at the moment but I am not sure that a 3 cost tutor is what the deck needs to succeed.

The only splash I can see viable is green for gaddock teeg, the best hatebear, to help against control. Which is also protected by karakas and vial at 2.

You are entitled to an opinion but saying that the red splash is not viable is obviously wrong. I have great results with it and turning the elves match up from atrocious to great is really nice. It also turns 12 post and shardless BUG into byes basically. Mono white also doesn't stand a chance against a good UWR stoneblade player, with Wr I've beaten it countless times.
06-14-2015, 04:19 AM
lavafrogg

Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bahra

You are entitled to an opinion but saying that the red splash is not viable is obviously wrong. I have great results with it and turning the elves match up from atrocious to great is really nice. It also turns 12 post and shardless BUG into byes basically. Mono white also doesn't stand a chance against a good UWR stoneblade player, with Wr I've beaten it countless times.

I am not saying the list is not viable. I am saying that it is most likely not optimal in most metagames and that, as Finn said, you are sacrificing some matchups for others.

More specifically, elves can play around a sorcery speed sweeper, UWR has bolt to kill magus of the mokn(and also runs blood moon in many cases) and post is also very weak to the death and taxes ganeplan of wasteland/port already.

I do not feel that weakening the manabase, which I hVe always seen as a strength of the deck, for the red splash is not worth it. I do not feel like you gain enough.... Unless your metagames is all post and elves and this fits into your play style.
06-14-2015, 04:26 AM
Bahra

Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

Quote:

Originally Posted by lavafrogg

I am not saying the list is not viable. I am saying that it is most likely not optimal in most metagames and that, as Finn said, you are sacrificing some matchups for others.

More specifically, elves can play around a sorcery speed sweeper, UWR has bolt to kill magus of the mokn(and also runs blood moon in many cases) and post is also very weak to the death and taxes ganeplan of wasteland/port already.

I do not feel that weakening the manabase, which I hVe always seen as a strength of the deck, for the red splash is not worth it. I do not feel like you gain enough.... Unless your metagames is all post and elves and this fits into your play style.

How does Elves play around a sorcery speed sweeper when it also has to deal with the threat of Jitte and getting killed in the air?

UWR stoneblade has 2 (!!) Bolts. And I have 4 Mother of Runes along with 3 Magus of the Moon. Even when they have basics out, they can't cast Council's Judgement and Supreme Verdict which is the 2 blow out cards they have.
06-14-2015, 05:39 AM
Barook

Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirbysdl

Yup, there's been a lot of interest in Teeg and Pridemage over on MTGS. Sylvan Library is always great too, especially with Stoneforge and a couple of fetches to shuffle.

Choke is also an interesting SB card.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirbysdl

I don't think anyone's talked too seriously about that one, TBH. Searching the Legacy thread for "fauna" and "shaman" both yield zero results. I was interested in Yisan's promise, but it does indeed seem too slow. 2 mana more than Stoneforge to cast and activate, and no immediate card replacement.

The :g: activation cost kills it in my opinion. Creatures are easy to splash due to Vial while noncreature cards and creatures with activation costs are much harder to use. At least Choke has so much power that it's worth it - Fauna Shaman, not so much.
06-14-2015, 06:52 PM
Colin

Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

Won a local tournament yesterday. only 13 people, but whatever. Most notable, my last match is on camera. Kind of a free role against RUG delver.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7pI...Kig6ywvFrAcTlp last match in the playlist.
06-15-2015, 03:11 AM
Curby

Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

Congrats, nice to see Mono-white continuing to do well. Would you mind posting your creature complement (or full list)?
06-15-2015, 10:37 AM
Colin

Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirbysdl

Congrats, nice to see Mono-white continuing to do well. Would you mind posting your creature complement (or full list)?

Sure, Very straightforward:

4 Mom
4 thalia
4 STM
4 Flickerwisp
3 Revoker
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Serra Avenger
2 brimaz
1 Aven Mindsensor

4 aether vial

1 jitte
1 SOFI
1 Batterskull

4 STP

4 port
4 wasteland
3 karakas
2 flagstones <--Ton's of miracles, and I probably end up having to cast cataclysm every other game.
1 cavern
9 plains

Sideboard:
3 Ethersworn
1 Leonin Relic Warder
2 RIP
2 Cataclysm
1 Manriki <-I have tons of Deathblade etc in my area
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 councils judgement
1 pithing needle
2 containment priest
1 grafdiggers cage
06-16-2015, 12:41 PM
mishima_kazuya

Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

I took a break from casting Dark Rituals and Cabal Rituals in the monthly Philadelphia area tournaments.

About 35 players registered, so 6 rounds of swiss and the winner receives two byes to the Legacy main event at Eternal Weekend. I won last month's tournament with AnT, so I had no plans for winning the tournament.

9 plains
3 karakas
1 flagstones of trokair
1 horizon canopy
1 cavern of souls
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland
4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull
1 sword of fire and ice
4 mother of runes
4 thalia, guardian of thraban
4 stoneforge mystic
3 serra avenger
3 phyrexian revoker
1 spirit of the labyrinth
1 ethersworn canonist
2 mirran crusader
4 flickerwisp

sideboard:
2 cataclysm
2 kor firewalker
2 rest in peace
1 grafdigger's cage
1 dismember
1 oblivion ring
1 council's judgment
1 ethersworn canonist
1 manriki-gusari
1 ratchet bomb
1 spirit of the labyrinth
1 seal of cleansing

Round 1: UR Delver. Won 2-0.
I remember that my opponent was fond of casting Lightning Bolts and Goblin Guides in various formats. Unfortunately he kept a hand of Spell Pierces, Dazes and the assorted blue things that were not cantrips.

Round 2: UWr Miracles. Lost 0-2
Got paired against a friend that was not sure what I was playing, however that did not matter. I mulliganed both games, and my opponent buried me under removal spells and card advantage from draw spells.

Round 3: BURG Delver. Won 2-0.
Unlike my last Delver opponent, these games started out close. However I saved my removal spells for Delver and bricked his ground attackers with Mother of Runes and/or Thalia+Karakas.

Round 4: OmniTell Won 2-1
Drew running hate bears to end game 1 with a Thalia, Canonist and Spirit of the Labyrinth in play.
My opponent kept a 1 lander game 2 after I mulliganed on my end. My mulligan slowed me down long enough for my opponent to assemble his combo while I was stuck on two lands, however he had to Cunning Wish for Stifle to get around my Oblivion Ring trigger. It turned out his hand was full of removal in the form of Pyroclasm, Snuff Out and Engineered Explosives, which bought him enough Draw Steps to flip a Brainstorm into Dig Through Time into the win.
I had Thalia on the play for game 3, while my opponent forgot about the Karakas in play as he activated Engineered Explosives. That misplay along with me having Oblivion Ring again for his Show and Tell gave me enough time to close the game. I gave my opponent an extra out, by casting Phyrexian Revoker instead of Serra Avenger into a potential Pyroclasm, but luckily I did not get punished. :tongue:

Round 5: MUD. Won 2-0
My opponent admitted that he sequenced his plays poorly and mana screwed himself both games. I also did a dumb thing in the form of using a Flickerwisp to flicker his Cloudpost when he had City of Traitors in play, which of course did not work how I wanted it to. It was sloppy win, but a win is a win.

Round 6: ID

Quarterfinals: Omnitell. Concede
I already had two byes for Eternal Weekend and top 8 agreed to split the store credit prize. So I conceded and wished my opponent the best of luck as I went to pick up some sweet Cube foils.
06-16-2015, 03:16 PM
Bahra

Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

Quote:

Originally Posted by mishima_kazuya

I took a break from casting Dark Rituals and Cabal Rituals in the monthly Philadelphia area tournaments.

About 35 players registered, so 6 rounds of swiss and the winner receives two byes to the Legacy main event at Eternal Weekend. I won last month's tournament with AnT, so I had no plans for winning the tournament.

9 plains
3 karakas
1 flagstones of trokair
1 horizon canopy
1 cavern of souls
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland
4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull
1 sword of fire and ice
4 mother of runes
4 thalia, guardian of thraban
4 stoneforge mystic
3 serra avenger
3 phyrexian revoker
1 spirit of the labyrinth
1 ethersworn canonist
2 mirran crusader
4 flickerwisp

sideboard:
2 cataclysm
2 kor firewalker
2 rest in peace
1 grafdigger's cage
1 dismember
1 oblivion ring
1 council's judgment
1 ethersworn canonist
1 manriki-gusari
1 ratchet bomb
1 spirit of the labyrinth
1 seal of cleansing

Round 1: UR Delver. Won 2-0.
I remember that my opponent was fond of casting Lightning Bolts and Goblin Guides in various formats. Unfortunately he kept a hand of Spell Pierces, Dazes and the assorted blue things that were not cantrips.

Round 2: UWr Miracles. Lost 0-2
Got paired against a friend that was not sure what I was playing, however that did not matter. I mulliganed both games, and my opponent buried me under removal spells and card advantage from draw spells.

Round 3: BURG Delver. Won 2-0.
Unlike my last Delver opponent, these games started out close. However I saved my removal spells for Delver and bricked his ground attackers with Mother of Runes and/or Thalia+Karakas.

Round 4: OmniTell Won 2-1
Drew running hate bears to end game 1 with a Thalia, Canonist and Spirit of the Labyrinth in play.
My opponent kept a 1 lander game 2 after I mulliganed on my end. My mulligan slowed me down long enough for my opponent to assemble his combo while I was stuck on two lands, however he had to Cunning Wish for Stifle to get around my Oblivion Ring trigger. It turned out his hand was full of removal in the form of Pyroclasm, Snuff Out and Engineered Explosives, which bought him enough Draw Steps to flip a Brainstorm into Dig Through Time into the win.
I had Thalia on the play for game 3, while my opponent forgot about the Karakas in play as he activated Engineered Explosives. That misplay along with me having Oblivion Ring again for his Show and Tell gave me enough time to close the game. I gave my opponent an extra out, by casting Phyrexian Revoker instead of Serra Avenger into a potential Pyroclasm, but luckily I did not get punished. :tongue:

Round 5: MUD. Won 2-0
My opponent admitted that he sequenced his plays poorly and mana screwed himself both games. I also did a dumb thing in the form of using a Flickerwisp to flicker his Cloudpost when he had City of Traitors in play, which of course did not work how I wanted it to. It was sloppy win, but a win is a win.

Round 6: ID

Quarterfinals: Omnitell. Concede
I already had two byes for Eternal Weekend and top 8 agreed to split the store credit prize. So I conceded and wished my opponent the best of luck as I went to pick up some sweet Cube foils.

Could you explain the sideboard especially?

I find the Dismember and Seal of Cleansing a bit odd over cards like Path to Exile and Disenchant.
06-16-2015, 06:19 PM
mishima_kazuya

Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bahra

Could you explain the sideboard especially?

I find the Dismember and Seal of Cleansing a bit odd over cards like Path to Exile and Disenchant.

Dismember was originally a Sunlance, but I decided to mix things up a bit to have more outs to x/5s. I figured the Seal of Cleansing played better with Rishadan Port in theory, but correct me if I'm wrong.
06-16-2015, 08:33 PM
Barook

Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

Quote:

Originally Posted by eostby

So, back on topic, if the Gideon spoiler I've just seen is legit, he might actually fight for a spot in Death and Taxes. Apologies if the images are huge; they're the only ones I've seen so far.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHqOuzyUEAEPOfW.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHqOu1BUEAE5-WP.jpg

Thoughts about the new Gideon?

It's cheap, but the flipped mode seems unimpressive.
06-16-2015, 09:27 PM
Brentane

Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barook

Thoughts about the new Gideon?

It's cheap, but the flipped mode seems unimpressive.

As much as I would love to use the new Gideon, we have to think, when will his abilities be relevant? His first one. He is probably gonna be hit by Delver of Secrets or Tarmogoyf or something else that is big right? But then again, you can force a Dark Confidant to attack and block with Thalia. His second ability helps keep our Stoneforge Mystic on the battlefield or any other crucial hatebear till your next turn. His Ultimate just allows him to become our Tarmogoyf. Now all his abilities are OK, but flipping him is the hard part. When are we attacking with more than 1-2 creatures? Usually on the final swing for life right? That's the big downside I see to him.

EDIT: Forgot to add that Karakas with him is hilarious.