Factory is another dude. It sometimes gets played in place of an island (should always have 4 wastelands md) Just to add some beats.
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Factory is another dude. It sometimes gets played in place of an island (should always have 4 wastelands md) Just to add some beats.
Personally I like Mishra's factory because even all alone, with no mutavault to pump, it does wonderful things for the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
1) it trades with goblin piledriver raising us to 5 creatures that can do so
2) [removed because it may have been wrong]
3) all alone it can be a 3/3 blocker which is ALWAYS nice to have
4) it brings us to 5 creatures unaffected by humility a card that if resolved destroys the idea of merfolk. I remember playing against a mono-U control player that I won against only because he ran out of man-lands (I was traiding merfolk 3:1 to kill them off) and I still had a mutavault and a factory to finish him off. Had I only had the vault he might have been able to recover
5) late game, he chumps goyf, KoTR and other large beaters that you wouldn't want to lose a fish to.
so yes, I'll admit 4 wastes is a powerful force but in my testing I found that the vault was just worth more to the deck than that 4th waste for two main reasons
1) against anyone competent they are going to see you drop that first island followed by a vial or a curse. They will spend the rest of the match playing around wasteland, not bringing in non basics for as long as possible. junk, team america, agro bant, RUG control and ANT all can run without ever going for a non basic just to name a few. the deck waste would seem most effective against is zoo as the run close to 0 basics if not exactly 0. Problem is, they will have a 1,2 and 3 drop most of the time meaning that they will have resolved creatures before your wastes can take effect. while two turns of wasting at the start may slow them down a lot, they will still have resolved 2 1 drop creatures where as you have 0 board presence. The true power of wasteland is the fear of it that causes players to have to slow down and play around it. yes, it is an amazingly powerful card, but it has so many weaknesses
2) as I have said before, the late game. top decking a waste turn 7 or 8 is usually next to useless while top decking another creature can almost always be helpful.
As for cursecatcher, i have to agree with you. If we had a better 1 drop, we would run a better one drop (and possibly curse also) but as it stands he is the best we have and does a wonderful job of making an opponent stop for a turn when you have that vial set at one.
And those skilled players never tried to call a judge, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Swindy
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe this works. Kira gives creatures a triggered ability. The creature must have that ability upon becoming the target of a spell or ability. So if your factory was not a creature at the time it was targeted, animating it won't prevent its demise.Quote:
2) with kira on board you cant get an opponent to screw up sometimes and try to wasteland it, animating its self and being given protection. You'd be amazed the number of times i have used this trick against skilled players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ykpon
As far as I know (A level 1 judge was asked in one of my games ) it works.Quote:
Originally Posted by masonbrune
How he explained it:
the wasteland is taped and sacrificed, its alternate ability (destroying target non-basic land) is put onto the stack. I respond by taping to produce mana (either with the factory or with an island) and my factory being animated is put on the stack. unless something else happens the stack then starts to resolve. My factory animates and gains the protection granted by kira as it is now a creature. after my factory is done resolving, then the wasteland resolves.
I am not totally sure if he was correct as it sounds a bit strange but the head judge for the tournament confirmed it (no idea of his level)
Correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by masonbrune
Incorrect. It becomes a creature after it is targeted. Announce target(s), pay cost(s), then the wasteland ability goes on the stack. All before the factory player receives priority. The animation ability resolves before the wasteland ability, but the ability granted by kira was not active when wasteland targeted as it was not a creature at that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swindy
thats what i thought untill I was told otherwise, tried it in a tournament and had a judge tell me it worked.Quote:
Originally Posted by nitewolf9
but i still think you are right on this, it just seems correct
i'll remove it from my list of reasons just in case
Mishra's factory was nothing but excellent for me this past weekend at a Legacy Tourney for Goyfs this past weekend. I hadnt realized how great it was vs. Grim Lavamancer (by pumping your Mutavault, it gets it out of lavamancers burn range).
I scooped an opponent into the top 8 and split with him. I played a classic Bertoncini style fish build. Next week I'm gonna bring stifles back into the deck as our meta in the twin cities has tons of Bant and fetchlands.
That was my initial reasoning as well, but I think it's worthwhile to test it in determining the best configuration. The loss of disruption is minimal with the addition of Mistep and Spell Pierces in the board. Loesing the one drop is probably the biggets loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by chags
It improves the Zoo match quite a bit as you replace a card that gets boarded out with Mistep.
We are going to test 14 lords 2 Kira 4 Adept, Vial Standstill Force Daze Mistep 20 lands
You are incorrect. Kira's ability is a global effect on your creatures... once the Mishra's Factory becomes a creature, it automatically gains Kira's ability of countering any spell or ability targeting it in the first place.
The only way to really get rid of the Mishras Factory is if the Wasteland player had 2 Wastelands out and then targeted the Mishras Factory, attempting to destroy it and ofcourse asking for a response. Lets say the Fish player responds by activating the Factory and had no more mana available. Then the Wasteland player may respond to the Mishras Factory player by using his other wasteland to take out the Mishras Factory. And since the Fish player has no available mana, the Mishras Factory bites the dust because of that, and this is before the Factory gains Kira's ability since it isnt a creature yet. Ofcourse it wouldnt matter anymore either since 2 targeted effects will get rid of a same creature anyways within 1 turn.... yeah, they can still double PtE or StP your Kira.
It does not matter when or how the land/creature gets targeted... what matters is that Kira's ability has a global effect on your board which is pretty much a state-based effect. For example, if you are playing thopter foundry and sword of the meek and you have a Master of Etherium in play under your control, guess what happens when you sacrifice the sword to make a thopter token.... you guessed correctly if you say that the sword will not return into play because the Master of Etherium's global effect on your little thopter token.
that is complete bs and totally wrong. First Kira's ability is triggered so there isn't anything global about it and it gives your creatures the same ability. As it was stated, the land has to be a creature when it is targeted for it's ability to trigger. Same reason why you can't vial in kira in response to a bolt. The creature is already targeted when your opp casts the bolt. If they try to wasteland your animated land then yes the ability will trigger. Kira gives this ability to all your creatures and they each trigger individually until you kill kira.
This is true if the land is already animated, the land doesn't have the triggered ability. So if they wasteland when the animation is on the stack or in response then it isn't a creature. I am not sure about the sword tokens, but that sounds wrong because it is a 1/1 creature with a lord effect so a 1/1 is coming into play. Who gives a shit about that this is the Merfolk.Quote:
It does not matter when or how the land/creature gets targeted... what matters is that Kira's ability has a global effect on your board which is pretty much a state-based effect
Back on topic... I have been testing misstep more and this card really shines vs you guess it combo/control.. I don't know about cutting cursecatcher but I think 1 might be okay. Also people say we don't need kira with this card and I disagree this card makes Kira nuts. 3-4 misstep isn't going to make the zoo a positive matchup, esp without kira
Ppl, Kira will not protect your Mishra's Factory if you animate it in response to a Wasteland activation. It is not a creature at the time Wasteland targets it - which is upon announcement, not resolution - so when Kira goes to check if its trigger goes off, it sees that it is not a creature when it is targeted and ignores the Wasteland. We should move past this, as it has been discussed several times over the past few years.
I understand that the two top lists that won recently both had similar configurations. But Mishra's Factory is far from an optimal choice here. It is just better than the alternatives. Well, I think that a Rishadan Port in that spot would be really good, but mostly this many lands is a byproduct of the Sowers. If Eldrazi decks lose traction, I suspect that there will be less need for this card, and 20-land builds will again be more popular. At the point the entire question becomes moot.
One more thing: Take out Cursecatcher? Seriously? It is the safest 1-drop in the format and sends the game in Merfolk's direction nearly as well as Vial. And anyway, it is always easy to point to the cheap stuff because they look like they don't pull their weight. But you can't just mess with the curve or the deck ceases to work.
Thanks for the clarification on the Factory. I am not sure if I am sold on it as and addition, but I will test it out and go from there. I appreciate the conceptual explanation, Swindy, even if one of your benefits was non-legit. Your post still helped me get my head around the rationale for running it.
Ok i just talked to a judge about it and it doesnt matter if kira is vialed into play in response to something being targeted... but my judge friend also said that Kira's ability is a global effect... which pretty much works like Humility. If a creature had an enter the battlefield effect while Humility is in play, that same creature's come into the battlefield effect will not trigger.
Your friend is an idiot. Kira and Humility aren't similar at all, and this is a gross misuse of the term Global Effect, which isn't even a real thing anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by affinitypimp
Kira has a static ability that grants all your guys a triggered ability. (When, Whenever, and At are triggers, people. Learn it.) If the target isn't a creature when the object that targets is announced and put on the stack, the Kira-granted ability doesn't trigger. Period.
Humility works completely different. Humility has a static ability that sets all creatures to 1/1's without abilities. This is considered a continuous effect.
And FWIW, I tried a lot of builds involving not running Cursecatcher and don't highly recommend this unless you're in a bizarre, artifact-flooded metagame.
As a former level 2 judge I wholeheartedly agree with Taco.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Also I would like to know if someone has actually tested Dismember (as someone suggested before) as a sideboard replacement for submerge: it could be the removal the deck is lacking against Zoo but i'm not sure about the 4 life loss.
Greetings.
I think the 4 life loss is way too much for this to be used against zoo, it would shine in match ups where we don't need help like Team America.
I've had a lot of success running Mind Harness against zoo. I generally bring in six to eight cards. Between those and Submerge, and keeping my Forces of Will in, I can often tempo the opponent out, which is really you're only way to win as they have inevatibility.
You keep Force in? Ick. I tested decently with 4eak's old list.
I'm glad you like it. I even tried out one crazy build of 3 factory, 4 vault, 2 wasteland 13 island and really liked it but for that I lost to combo way to often for it to be usable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
The other thing I would recommend that i used is the 2x sowers main board. 1x of anything is not enough if your going to want to see it often