Because Poron is an innovative and genius Miracles player who would also recommend you to play Null Rod in the Miracles SBQuote:
Originally Posted by ozimek
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Because Poron is an innovative and genius Miracles player who would also recommend you to play Null Rod in the Miracles SBQuote:
Originally Posted by ozimek
top bounces and CB is out in the matchups where you want Serenity.
MUD, DnT
I initially thought this was the case, but I'm actually questioning whether this is true. Shutting down Karakas/Thalia, Port, and Wasteland is huge. The idea is not to lock them out of the game, but rather to bring the match to an even playing field. Without all the land-based tricks, DnT is much, much easier to beat.Quote:
Originally Posted by ozimek
Giving up fetch shuffles for their Ports/Wastelands/Karakas feels like some Knight-for-Bishop fair trade...the fact that you have to spend a card on it makes it totally not worth it. I think it's a lot easier to bring the match to an even playing field by shuffling to a Terminus.
Good analogy. I think it depends on how the game has been so far. If you're looking for something to close out the game without actually having something like mentor or stoneforge, etc, at that moment, blood moon neuters the game from their point of view so you don't need the filtering of fetches to get through the game. However, turning off fetches while being behind makes blood moon actively terrible, so it depends on how the game is played. As Philipp said in his earlier post, the matchup is extremely intricate and there are so many factors. Assuming equal playskill, the matchup is equal, but the disparity between a good DnT compared to a bad one is gigantic.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Spell Snare?Quote:
Originally Posted by ozimek
it can nerf us very much.
It would be great in Patriot decks as well.
4 Wasteland, 4 Caverns provide them all the <> they need.
you are all understimating the card, imho
What the heck is "Patriot"? UWR Stoneblade? Do you really think they're going to run 8 lands that can't cast any of their coloured spells? And even if they are, what are they cutting? Fetches? Actual lands for casting Swords/Brainstorm/Ponder? What deck wants to run 4 of a land that can only cast a subset of their 12-ish creatures? Even if you name Human for Stoneforge and Snapcaster, now it can't help cast a True-Name Nemesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
4 Caverns in a metagame that's so heavily spell-focused is a huge demand of a deck, and while Warping Wail is certainly a good card, I don't think any deck is going to be willing to warp their mana base for it. More likely it'll see play in decks that have no problem producing colourless with their existing manabase (MUD, Painter, Cloudpost, maybe D&T but I'm not sure what they'd cut for it).
Stoneforge is a Kor Artificer, not a human.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian
Warping Wall or wth it's called, might have a place in the format. Not in the typical decks though, as they rely heavily on coloured mana symbols. Not using wasteland in order to cast this is just like... BrokeBack
I have included one predict (liked a lot!) and reduced the number of kill condition.
However, i think that this list is lacking more pressure versus combo, MUD, post, or weird decks, maybe if add one more monastery mentor on sideboard or stoneforge package.
Currently, i'm playing with this list:
Lands (21 - Miracles doesn't work with less)
4 island
2 plains
1 cavern of souls (naming human preboard and wizard or human post board)
3 tundra
2 volcanic
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
1 arid mesa
Creatures and Planeswalkers (7)
2 Monastery mentor
3 Snapcaster mage
2 Jace, The Mindsculptor
Business (32)
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
1 Predict
1 Council's Judgement
2 Counterspell
Sideboard (15):
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Meddling Mage
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
3 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Wear // Tear
That's what sideboards are for =P.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefanogs
Of course it does! Either by lowering the curve further (cut mentor and CJ) or by reconstructing your mana base and remove Cavern of Souls or replace a dual with another fetch. Cavern ranges from cute to great but is a liability and therefor not a consistent mana-source and duals are terrible draws in the wasteland matchups (in this deck, atleast). I can get behind the second plains if you don't play a heavy red sideboard (with blood moon, which I recommend) as long as you have atleast 6 basics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefanogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackan
If you're playing 21 lands, Cavern is fine. If you are playing 19 or 20, just don't. It isn't worth the mana inconsistency. Consistent mana is important against many decks, so I agree with Mackan on this. I tend to fall pretty middle of the road on the utility lands. I haven't gotten around to testing Predict either. My list below, for reference.
Quote:
Miracles Decklist (15 January 2015)
Creatures
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor
Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Other Spells
2 Counterspell
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
Lands
1 Arid Mesa
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
Sideboard
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster
SB: 1 Keranos, God of Storms
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
I've been piloting (and tunig (-1 Mentor, +1 Clique :D)) this list over the last few weeks.
I have a combined 18-4 matches in the last four local tournaments:
4x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Arid Mesa
4x Island
2x Plains (This should either be a Karakas or a 3rd Volcanic, but I only own two volc's at the moment, and I really don't want to play a non-basic basic plains, even with 2 cliques)
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island¨
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Monestary Mentor
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Force of will
4x Counterbalance
2x Counterspell
[bold]2x Spell Pierce[/bold]
1x Council's Judgement
[bold]3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Terminus[/bold]
Sideboard:
1x Pithing Needle
1x Engineered explosives
1x Æthersworn Canonist
1x Confinement Priest
2x Wear // Tear
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
2x Flusterstorm
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Blood Moon
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Surgical Extraction
This list has been incredible for me.
My four match-losses have been: 1x RUG Delver, 1x Enchantress w/ Emrakul, 1x MUD as well as 1x Slivers (Saw a ton of swords, 2 terminus in both games I last. He drew 3 lands, Vial as well as Slivers. I drew 1 brainstorm, 2 ponders and 0 tops).
This list is very close to what I find optimal; My local meta is pretty diverse with all kinds of (playable) delver, ANT, SnT, UBg Omnitell, Miracles, Shardless: A wide palet of a typical metagame, with the odd-balls tossed in: MUD, Enchantress, Painter - Stuff like that. I'm very confident in my list. And I really, really like the Spell Pierces.
DnT is always more and more common.
Equipments, Vial, Revoker, Spirith of the Labyrinth makes it necessary for us to add, imho, at least a Disenchant to the 2 Wear/Tear list or we might even go 2 Disenchant 1 Wear/Tear
Rishadan + Wasteland are so enemies of the Volcanic Island (as well as Leonin Arbiter is an enemy of fetchlands) that we want to drop 2 Plains as soon as possible.
I am adding a second Staticaster and Disenchant because, well, it's needed.
I am, also, uncertain if we want to keep on playing Vendilion. I see much less SnT decks and, anyway, when they resolve SnT they drop Primeval Titan or Griselbrand, making Clique so much weaker then in Omniscience/DTT times..
Also, I find myself siding in Pyroblast so much less.. Nowadays threath are mana denial and creatures. We might get big advantage of a 22-23 lands list and a couple more KR (Kozilek's Return)/Pyroclasm/Meekstone. 2 Staticaster are, in my list, a staple. They kill all Mentors tokens, "new" Delvers, Revoker, Thalia, Dark Confidant, Baleful Strix, all Empty the Warrents tokens.. secretly the best card of the deck in some matchup. It also survives both Pyroclasm and Kozilek's Return and triggers for free.
Against Storm we still play Flusterstorm, Canonist, Counterbalance, FoW. It's all about mulligans and luck that matchup.
I am going for
-2 Pyroblast
-3 Vendilion Clique
+1 Staticaster
+1 Pyroclasm (2 in total)
+1 Disenchant
+2 Blood Moon (♦ lands usually are non basics as well as all the Grixis, Sultai lands).
Counterbalance is at its minimum in these days between Vial and Cavern and the drop of storm decks around.
Spell Pierce is back a fine maindeck addition again.
Are you for real?
Clique as well as Pyroblast are among the most important cards in our 75.
for? I am serious.
the mirror, what else?
Please try and stick to coherent sentences when you are trying to make a point or participate in this (or any) thread. Incoherent words and random punctation marks are not what one would consider a meaningful contribution to a discussion. The more effort you put in your posts, the more effort others will put into their responses.
Thanks for your understanding.
if that was for me, I meant the mirror match :|
Vendilion and Blasts are useful in the mirror match not so much elsewhere
TBH I'm not a fan of playing REB against Storm, either. I'm assuming that's the MU Poron is talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
Shardless, Show and Tell, storm, Delver matches?Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
All these matches are much more common than Death and Taxes.
Sure, that's reasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
I'd much, much rather have REB than either Swords or Terminus (or the 2nd plains, or judgement), though.
I usually board, with my list:
-3 Terminus, Swords,
-1 Plains, -1 Judgement
+2 Flusterstorm, +1 Clique (2 then), +1 Æthersworn Canonist, +2 REB effects, +1 Engineered Explosives, +1 Izzet Staticaster.
I was gunna comment on you taking out all removal but saw you have Staticaster, which hedges against spicy BB tech and Young Pyro. Good man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
Due to recent complaints concerning the quality of posts in this very thread I highly encourage (read: presuppose) every single one of you to formulate your posts in a very clear cut form of premises/ideas/test results followed by a conclusion or question. This means there will be no more one-sentence-respones AT ALL. Have I made myself clear here? If you're not following the site rules, you can expect warnings. Participate in a respectful and elaborate way or leave.
Thank you for your understanding.
So yesterday i top4'd at my local monthly legacy league with a brew im testing. Im not sure this belongs here but this decklists is closest to miracles than to any other deck.
Lands:
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
2 arid mesa
4 island
2 plains
3 tundra
2 volcanic island
Creatures:
3 snapcaster mage
3 monastery mentor
Planeswalkers:
2 Jace, the mind sculptor
Instants&Sorcs:
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 force of will
2 counterspell
2 spell pierce
1 spell snare
4 swords to plowshares
1 supreme verdict
1 council's judgement
Others:
3 counterbalance
4 sensei's divining top
1 engineered explosives
SB:
2 pyroblast
1 vendilion clique
1 blood moon
1 pithing needle
1 relic of progenitus
1 izzet staticaster
1 meddling mage
1 surgical extraction
1 counterflux (yeah i know, i dont have a flusterstorm)
1 wear/tear
1 disenchant
1 entreat the angels
1 containment priest
1 pyroclasm
My matchups were:
R1: ANT: 2-0
R2: Shardles BUG: 2-0
R3: Elves: 2-0
R4&5: ID
Top8: Merfolk: 2-0
Top4: Punishing Blue: 0-2
Overall it performed really well, considering i faced some of the decks worst matchups and fighting elves and merfolk without having any termini wasnt as much as a struggle as i thought it would be. Mentor's board control is insane and swords/EE can handle pinpointed threats they cant, like DRS and flying stuff.
My motivation for this was that im not really comfortable playing terminus at the time (i know its supposed to be one of our best cards), because not only if forces you to switch top (being dead whenever top is, making it more vulnerable to phyrexian revoker/pithing needle and exposing it to abrupt decay) but its an awkward card to have in your hand until you find a BS. That forces you to save your Brainstorms like gold and be more jace dependant in order to optimize them. Not to mention not running them MD makes our control/combo matchup insanely better (except for TES goblins, but i'll take that deal any day of the week).
My game with punishing blue was just nuts, he got out with either sylvan library or chalice turn 1, and then a series of threats i just couldnt handle and i seriously doubt terminus would have helped that much, considering he went for gaddock teeg as soon as he could both games.
I think the one that needs more work is the sideboard consdiering that.
The problem with using power to pursue an agenda of questionable valueQuote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
is that some people don't like being told how they have to interact
and that can lead to resentment even from those who didn't give a damn in the first place.
Use proper capitalization/punctuation/grammar or get the fuck out. It's in the site rules and it goes for this thread and every other on the site. If you have a problem with a moderator's action, you may report the post and leave a message with your concerns. What you should NOT do is derail the thread by posting your grievances in it. -zilla
Hi Joe.
I just wish to clarify that what is being asked is nothing more than site policy, the details of can be found here. This is not about stifling speech, discussion or ideas, it's is also not about a grab for power or the pushing of an agenda. What this happens to be in truth is the outcome of placing more active people in positions of authority. We are more able to see things that are not reported and also more likely to take note of situations and act upon them.
I myself do not feel like it is much of an issue to ask people not to post comments in a manor better suited for irc. This is not a chat program, it is a forum. If you need something said that only takes a sentence then I would not personally see the harm in that. But if you happen to just be responding to a sting of conversations not suited to the purpose of the site, well, we have site rules.
I also do not feel that in this case, even if you think it an agenda, it's of questionable value to ask people to post comments in a legible manor. As we have people here who visits and post from nations where English is not a common language, it is not at all unreasonable to ask for those of us who do know language not to make life harder for those who don't.
If you have any questions or issues, please let me know and I will do my best to help you out. You can also message Zilla as the primary site admin if you feel we have over reached.
Dice.
I don't think any thanks are in order for our understanding.... because we don't understand at all. You can't tell us how to write in a forum that already has a set of "rules". I used quotations because this is the fucking source and the rules pretty much have always been to not attack people and that's basically it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
Wow I haven't been on here in a while, but I am just going to refrain from posting if I have to carefully formulate a post with premises, ideas, and test results followed by a conclusion. I have never seen anything like that in the years I've been on this forum. People are having a dialogue about useful information. Lists are fine, but the threads that are the most useful on here are actual dialogues rather than walls of list text.
While this may have been true at times, we have always had a very specific set of guidelines in regards to posting. Just because there have been a bunch of lazy mods / admins in the past (like myself) that have let this behavior slide due to our inability to keep up with the site and life, doesn't mean it's encouraged or will be tolerated. There have been many complaints about the quality of the site going downhill and we brought on new mods specifically to address this. Please respect the site rules and the mods that are trying to clean up and improve the quality of these forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
Please direct any questions / concerns in regards to this directly to the Mods and Admins, we'd be happy to discuss it in detail. Let's not pollute this thread any further.
/backontopic
Just to add to what Jander said, the very reason we promoted new moderators was so that we could more easily keep up with the enforcement of site rules. A large part of this is quality control in posting. The site rules are very clear about proper use of capitalization, punctuation, and grammar. Users are expected to follow these rules. If you don't like being told how to post, you're welcome not to. Thanks for your understanding.
Let's get this back on track, following the "new" guidelines for posting :)
I recently played a mirror match against a friend of mine. He won game 1 with a Top > Counterbalance with Force backup.
For game two, I sideboarded the following:
-4 Terminus, - 4 Swords, -1 Plains
+3 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Wear//Tear, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Engineered Explosives.
My maindeck winconditions were: 2x Jace, 3x Snapcaster, 2x Mentor, 1x Clique with 0 non-basic utility lands in the 75.
My hand for game two was this:
http://i.imgur.com/zFsnqve.jpg
Do you think this is a keep?
Obviously, with any land besides the basic plains, this is a snap-keep.
What do you think?
Would need to see the rest of your list to decide fully, but I think it's a fine keep. Having FoW backup is pretty important and depending on prowess and weakness gauged from the opponent. If you're comfortable digging for lands early on, it's a keep for me. Also, it's a much better keep on the draw than on the play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
That basic plains is always a dagger though :(
My list, at that time, was pretty stock:Quote:
Originally Posted by Minniehajj
4x Force, 2x Counterspell, 1x Council's Judgement with 4x Ponder.
2x Mentor, 3x Snapcaster, 2x Clique, 2x Jace as Wincon's after board.
He won game 1, and I elected to be on the draw for game two.
If you're on the draw game 2, I think this is 100% a keep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
You're likely to see a land in the first 2 draws and will still have a top in play if you don't hit off the first draw. Did you keep it? FoW is enough defense for turns 2-3 and the hand seems fine if you hit a few lands. You'll see a few cards. And plains will likely be top fodder for a few turns anyway.
I would keep this hand as well. Given that you have double Force of Will in order to not get locked out too fast should give you a fighting chance to draw out of it, especially if you have Top. So, what I was wondering... Did you not board out the 2nd Plains because you thought you needed the land or because you didn't have better cards in the sideboard? (if its the latter, then I'd suggest taking out the 2nd Plains and keeping 1 Terminus in case your opponent has Monastery Mentor? - I'm not sure but I think this would be better, what do you think? It seems like you only have 1 EE and no Staticaster/Sulfur/Terminus... What has your experience been?)
Great choice of Roter Urknall, too!
The first question we should ask is: Which Miracle build is your opponent on? Predict Miracles? Mentor Miracles? Legend/Cavern Miracles?Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
If your opponent's is on Predict and/or Mentor Miracles, why are we SB-out all the Terminus?
As to the opening 7, I would mull. The reasoning is simple. First, the mulligan rule allow people to be more aggressive, looking for better opening. Second, let's say it's a tournament setting and you lost game 1; you want to be pro-active game 2. Your opening hand simply says: drop turn 1 SDT and then wait it out until you have the correct color of Mana source to do anything pro-active, counter everything relevant in the mean-time. That's crappy when you lost game 1 already. We don't know how much time was spent on game 1, in a 50 min competitive match setting, time can be an issue.
I've been screwed a bit too often with only 19 lands. I also think it's fine to board both plains, in case you are playing that actively actually draws you cards - Predict is likely the only candidate. I think 20 is the lowest we can go, without predict, that's at least what I've experienced. I'm not so afraid of a mentor resolving, with my list. I also know his list, and I know he plays 1 Mentor in the board, and two entreats preboard, which makes flusterstorm much more viable.
Regarding the Urknall: What about the Willenskraft, Gegengewicht, Weissagekreisel des Sensies, Gedankenwirbel? ;)
This was in early december, ie. before Predict Miracles became a thing. He is on Angels, 1 karakas, 1 vensor, 1 clique - 0 Caverns. He has a single Mentor in the board.
This may be a silly question from an inexperienced Miracles pilot, but why would you choose to be on the draw?Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
My reasoning is as follows (Tx = turn x, Px = player x):
T1-P1: P1 has 7 cards. He gets to do stuff.
T1-P2: P2 has 8 cards, one of which unknown at start of the game. He gets to do stuff.
T2-P1: P1 now has 8 cards. He gets to do stuff again.
Being on the play gives me a total of 8 cards after my opponent has had his first turn, which is the same as being on the draw. Being on the play allows me to play my lands earlier, dodging mana-costing counterspells on my Top and perhaps also Counterbalance, and in general allows me to take the initiative. The only advantage for being on the draw (that I can see) is that it allows my first turn to start with 8 cards, which nets me 8/7 = 1,14 times more options, which help to plan my early turns. Does this increase in options for turn 1 and the planning for the turns after that outweigh the benefits of getting to play your stuff faster? Or am I missing something?
In a grindy game where every card matters beeing on the draw is better (Cardadvantage>tempo). However in the miracles mirror a counterbalance is so important that it renders a high number of these extra cards more or less useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
The dilemma is this: You would prefer to be on the play since you can protect your turn3 counterbalance with a red elemental blast but at the same time your opponent will (assuming he played land each turn and did not cast a spell turn 2) have 2 mana to defend himself with. So basicly your benefit in tempo will be lost as soon as you try to leverage it by casting an important spell. What matters is really how your opponent sequence his spells and the more patient he is the better it is to be on the draw. During sideboarding you will not know at which part of the game there will be a crucial counter-war over counterbalance so therefor neither approach is "correct". The earlier the better to be on the play (as you will have more mana) and the later the better to be on the draw (since it's more likely you will be able to cast that extra card for having more mana available). I personally belive that I am more favored going into the lategame in general so I prefer to be on the play and not die to a turn 1 top turn 2 cb with multiple cantrips in hand that I did not have time to transform into something useful.
EDIT: This is why forcing your opponent to react at his/her end of turn is so good because either you resolve something good (without any risk of them punish you with Counterbalance etc) or you choke them on mana when they do. Predict, Snapcaster mage and Vendilion Clique are very good in the mirror because of this.