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@ScatManX: I'm also going to test Punishing Goblins the next few Days/Weeks!
Ok your MUs were not so great, but i think testing against Jund would be interessting. Also against RUG or Esperblade. Because those decks are the most played at the moment. I would be very happy if you would keep us up to date.
Piledriver isn't the only card that really benefits from Loyalist. Siege-gang commander and Loyalist are best friends too!
Having SGC practically ensures a battalion trigger and being able to sacrifice goblins which allready have done damage due to first strike (and trample) is a big thing. N00b question here: If you have SCG, loyalist and three tokens in play and attack with all 5 creatures, can you do damage to the player (first strike damage) and then sacrifice them to make it lethal?
Am I making a mistake?
[EDIT]: Never mind the second part, offcourse that's the case, it's allways been the case even without first strike....:rolleyes: Creatures that won't get lethal damage can be sacrificed... In combat however, SCG and Loyalist are buddies.
For all people who say, the Loyalist is good because of Piledriver:
Who of you played Goblin Tunneler in the past? he also makes an unblockable Piledriver (or other dudes like Lackey). I don't understand how the loyalist could be more than a sb card against Esper.
Goblin Tunneler sucks. I don't see the point in bringing him up. It's like asking "Who of you played Wood Elemental in the past? He also has power and toughness that include a star. I don't understand how Tarmogoyf could be more than a sb card against creature decks."Quote:
Originally Posted by Pee-Dee-2
Loyalist seems awesome. I might try to build a Goblin deck :)
Because Tunneler costs 2 mana, has to be tapped to get the unblockable effect and doesn't have haste.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pee-Dee-2
That's why.
Loyalist is better because it's effect kicks in the moment you go for the alpha strike.
PS. I just realized Loyalist also gives first strike. Now that's the tits.
I pretty much share the views above. Typically, players overreact and over-hype a new card when it is spoiled. I think that Loyalist is playable, but only in the right kind of goblin deck and in the right meta. You will need to play him in a version that runs four Goblin Piledriver, which means that you probably don't want him in token-style goblin decks that run Mogg War Marshal over Piledriver. Loyalist does seem to give the deck a boost in some matchups, particularly decks that run tokens, such as UWx control decks like Esperblade and Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hof
So in the right meta, you could run him as a one-of that you can tutor for with Matron when he can give you the alpha strike win. Although, I suspect that most of the time, you will tutor for other goblins (Ringleader, Krenko, Siege-Gang, etc.) In a meta that doesn't feature a lot of decks with tokens, I would not play him in the maindeck.
@Scatman,
Some slight tweaks I can think of that might have made your matches better:
Goblin Sharpshooter is the bomb vs Elves
Thalia is decent vs storm
Ancient Grudge seems like the best card vs affinity
In what matchups do you want Punishing Fire? It seems super slow in a format that is really fast and only going to get faster.
Also, who is Tuktuk in your SB for?
Isn't Shattering Spree a lot better if you are focusing on affinity?Quote:
Originally Posted by magicmerl
Shattering spree isn't always better than ancient grudge, because we don't always have double/triple red mana to copy the spell,especially if we run wastes,caverns and ports. Ancient grudge only needs a taiga to be cast two times.
Aniway, if you have enough red mana sources in your deck, shattering spree is better vs affinity.
That's not correct. You most definitely want to be running Mogg War Marshal in the same deck as Goblin Piledriver. 2 tokens per MWM means bigger Driver's, and of course, bigger Gempalm's and bigger Krenko's.Quote:
You will need to play him in a version that runs four Goblin Piledriver, which means that you probably don't want him in token-style goblin decks that run Mogg War Marshal over Piledriver.
Actually MWM got mainstream when Zoo got big.. people always used to run 4 Piledrivers before that. The current meta is midrange-control heavy. I don't think you really need MWM that badly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Arguably Shatterstorm is better than Shattering Spree vs affinity. But both are fairly expensive and slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatara
It depends what you want. Affinity tends to win by having certain key artifacts like Cranial Plating out and crushing us with that. I like to kill just the major threat and ignore the rest, since they have a bunch of durdles, we have a bunch of durdles, and I like goblins over robots in that case. Inkmoth Nexus also dodges shattering spree.
In the example Scatman gave us, he crushed the opponent, who then proceeded to simply reload with thoughcast and another wave, then keep on trucking. I think that Ancient Grudge would have been better than Shattering Spree there.
1 - I know Sharpshooter is awesome against Elves, but given how the 2 games played out, it would ave been useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by magicmerl
2 - Agree. She, with combination of Chalices, could have won that match.
3 - Agree, and going in the discussion, I may prefer it over Spree. Being an instant is awesome due to the low cost of casting+Equipping Plating.
4 - P.Fire is great against Bug/Jund and Esper. It was awesome against Affinity too, but my topdeck skills could not match his... =/ Also, a 2cc removal is great against most decks when you want to connect Lackey T2.
5 - Tuktuk is for Bug and Jund mainly, since they can't exile it, but I was testing it against anything with Plague, and it proved itself quite great in the mirror. Against Affinity it would have been nice too, to have a colorless 5/5 to block Etchet Champion...
Thanks for the comments.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by magicmerl
And I think Grudge is better because it's more useful in more MUs too...
@MrTylor and nameless One: Oh men. I didn't want to know if tunneler is good or bad. Of course he is not playable. I compared him with the Loyalist. Some people told, he will do great, because Piledrivers gain trample.
So, with tunneler, they are unblockable!
But if you don't play tuneler, you don't need Loyalist. First strike doesn't make the difference.
So don't hype a card which is not better than the ones we are able to play today.
Loyalist can attack on turn 1. Tunneler can't even be cast until turn 2 and then doesn't have an effect until turn 3. It's like you are equating Ancestrall Recall with Concentrate and then concluding that Ancestral is bad because Concentrate is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pee-Dee-2
Loyalist may or may not be playable. I'm certainly interested in trying him out in a list with 4 Piledrivers and some number of Chieftains.
Yeah, I'm just 4xing Loyalist until it doesn't work out, I'd rather be unimpressed with this card via testing than miss the boat on what is probably the only other playable 1 drop next to Goblin Lackey since Mogg Fanatic got nerfed.
Anybody not playing 4 Piledriver and War Marshal is doing it wrong, War Marshal wasn't included for Zoo it was included for Tarmogoyf.dec. and I hear BUG is good.
Loyalist, War Marshall, Chiefton seems pretty boner inducing fwiw.
First of all, Tarmogoyf VS goblins is mostly a joke. The deck has lands, creatures and artefacts. Tarmogoyf is mostly a non-factor in the Zoo match ups. I once had a guy board out his Tarmogoyfs against me. What made Mogg War Marshal main deck material was definitely Zoo since Steppe Lynx/Wild Nacatl and burns was a fast clock we couldn't deal with.
Second of all, Army Loyalist may seem like a good card at first glance, but after thinking about it, it really provides no real advantage outside of First Strike. Trample is only usable with Pile Driver. The deck consists of 1/1's and 2/2's. Trample will hardly ever be maximized. The biggest problem with Loyalist giving first strike is the assumption of a safe play. When you swing, your creatures can get removed with trigger on the stack missing the requirement to activate his ability, essentially sending your important goblins to their doom. The only redeeming factor is that this creature is a 1/1 haste for R.
Think about it. The one drop isn't what Goblins has been waiting for. Goblins has never had trouble getting damage through. The biggest problem with Goblins right now is that it isn't really viable as a control deck anymore. Rishadan Port is no longer effective vs the current metagame.
Update Notes
January 16th 2013
* moved Rest in Peace from "To-be-tested" section to the "Graveyard-hate section
* added the following cards to the to "To-be-tested" section
Boros Charm
Army Loyalist
Gruul Charm
Especially Gruul Charm seems promissing to me.
I read the cards like this
Choose one -
(1) Go for the Alpha Strike (or connect with Goblin Lackey or deal massive amounts of damage); or
(2) Never use this ability; or
(3) Destroy all flying tokens + Vendillion Clique, then go for the Alpha Strike
The last ability can be used to let your opponent invest 2 or more turns to set up Spirit Token, then you just blow them up (together with an ocassional Vendillion Clique). Against UW Miracles you can even trade 1/1 creatures for blocking Angel tokens. I admit that this is not what you want as a SB card vs UW Miracles though. However, this card is a very appealing choice vs Esperbade and all non-flying aggro decks.
Thoughts?
Gruul Charm:
For (3) I would rather have Sharpshooter, and if (1) was useful, then Falter would have seen some play by now.
I'm not worried about tarmogoyf in this MU, I'm more worried about the delvers here. In my experience the Flying 3/2 hurts more than a vanilla beater that I can chump if I have to. Hell I'm even more worried about snapcaster than I am about tarmogoyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
War marshal is good, I'm not sure that you need him as a 4 of though.