[Deck] GW/x Maverick

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

He has 6 ways to tutor for the bog in the mainboard (wayfarer and knight), as well as the extractions in the side. The coolest thing about his particular build is that it forgoes the zenith garbage all-together.
<3 you Klaus, finally someone that tests things to determine whether or not they like them, as opposed to just doing whatever some other guys says.
I had actually cut revokers to keep zeniths in, although since you cut arbor, the card seems to get worse and worse. I think I actually like revokers and the second canopy over an arbor and the zeniths.

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How I evaluate Zenith:
* for me it comes down to tempo VS. versatiliy
* and Zenith does not appear suitable for the format's current tempo
* I'm aware T1 Zenith into Arbor is a decent play, and I really appreciate the card's flavor
* but being able to pump out critters a turn earlier (ESG is also a concession to that) to keep up with your Aggro/Combo opponent is essential
* being more susceptible to Daze/Pierce sucks aswell
* Maverick is pretty redundant and versatile already --> most creatures advance your situation anyway
* the dyssynergy with Gaddock and Thalia puts the final nail in the coffin imo

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Originally Posted by litenkatt

@klaus what's the reason you dont run any Scavenging Oozes? I saw another similar list that top 8'd that too didn't have any Oozes MB nor SB. How do you win against graveyard decks?

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Basically what thefreakaccident said, plus w/o Zeniths playing 1 in the MD becomes kind of random, while two seems too many.

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Here's my current list for reference:

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mother of Runes
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Birds of Paradise

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial

4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths

2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 SoLaS

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Excellent list! Did you collaborate with M@verick when you designed it?

Also a few more questions:

-SoFaI over batterskull and no BS in the 75.. can you elaborate?

-weathered wayfarer I just dont get how hes that good to include considering the deck runs mana dudes and crop rotation exists. Im assuming you didnt like crop rotation due to its additional cost maybe?

-4 spot removal is historical but lately weve seen an increase pretty much across the specrum to handle the midranged decks. If you were to bring in more removal what would it be and why? Also have you found 4 to be enough?

-lasty is the 1-of scryb ranger worthwhile anymore? Without a tutor or functional overlap it seems maybe a batterskull or a plainswalker (or ooze) for late game would have more impact.

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

Excellent list! Did you collaborate with M@verick when you designed it?

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Hey Tombstalker, thx for your feedback! I used Door's list as a foundation to build on - Door did the same with M@verick's design, whom I've played online once in a while. Cool guy. So you could say my latest variation is M@verick's grand brainchild. :smile:

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

-SoFaI over batterskull and no BS in the 75.. can you elaborate?

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I've been playing Batterskull in DnT lists for a while, but it never impressed me. SoFaI is very different indeed: creates C/A, can act as removal and protects your most valuable guy against Bolts. Though I admit it's gravier the more fliers you run - I'll have to think about this.

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

-weathered wayfarer I just dont get how hes that good to include considering the deck runs mana dudes and crop rotation exists. Im assuming you didnt like crop rotation due to its additional cost maybe?

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Crop Rotation is superb and I included it for the most part of my testing. Finding Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Gaea's Cradle, or help assemble "Dark Stage" is nothing to sneeze at. Atm I run the second Pridemage instead, trying to have more MD answers for problematic enchantments/artifacts. Especially since I'm not using any Zeniths. Sounds like you haven't tested Wayfarer :cool: alongside Vial (allowing you to operate on 1-2 land) he'll just find 4 Wasteland and destroy any greedy mana base opponent (happens all the time) plus he's king at assembling Dark Stage.

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

-4 spot removal is historical but lately weve seen an increase pretty much across the specrum to handle the midranged decks. If you were to bring in more removal what would it be and why? Also have you found 4 to be enough?

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Against midrange I would probably add another SB Jitte before anything along the lines of Sunlace.

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

-lasty is the 1-of scryb ranger worthwhile anymore? Without a tutor or functional overlap it seems maybe a batterskull or a plainswalker (or ooze) for late game would have more impact.

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You are right about 1ofs appearing random in non-Zenith versions. However, I'm actually almost always happy to see her, since she's mad versatile: advances your mana resources, is awesome at carrying equipment, allows for double activations of MoR and KotR, untaps blockers etc., holds off Delvers, can't be bounced by Jace - the list goes on. With that powerful Merfolk guy entering the scene Scryb becomes even more relevant imo.

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Hey Tombstalker, thx for your feedback! I used Door's list as a foundation to build upon - Door did the same with M@verick's design, whom I've played online once in a while. Cool guy. So you could say my latest variation is M@verick's grand brainchild.

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I just went back and found his list, awesome innovations by both, well actually all 3 of you. I noticed Door doesnt run any batterskulls either but does have crop rotation in the main.

GSZ has seemed lacking lately so aether vial is very intriguing and refreshing.. That said what are your thoughts on a single GSZ as a virtual 2nd/5th copy of 1-of and thus also 4-of targets? It is still a tutor afterall and the only one that reccurs itself. Plus the main benny here would be deck space.

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Sounds like you haven't tested Wayfarer alongside Vial (allowing you to operate on 1-2 land) he'll just find 4 Wasteland and destroy any greedy mana base opponent (happens all the time) plus he's king at assembling Dark Stage.

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Your right but vials are gonna replace GSZ so might as well test wayfarer too.

I would think BS somewhere in the 75 is correct. Maybe not maindeck since some can disrupt it rather easy but against certain opponents it just puts the game out of reach. Its a tutorable baneslayer. I wonder how much better it could be in vial-mav with wayfarer to wreck manabases as you said and vial/mom to protect SFM until EoT?

Edit- almost forgot the craziest part.. props for testing out ESG man.

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

GSZ has seemed lacking lately so aether vial is very intriguing and refreshing.. That said what are your thoughts on a single GSZ as a virtual 2nd/5th copy of 1-of and thus also 4-of targets? It is still a tutor afterall and the only one that reccurs itself. Plus the main benny here would be deck space.

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I actually like that idea. A single GZS can't ever be random, and as a 1of it's very unlikely that it cloggs your hand early on. I could see it replacing my second Gaddock.

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

I would think BS somewhere in the 75 is correct. Maybe not maindeck since some can disrupt it rather easy but against certain opponents it just puts the game out of reach. Its a tutorable baneslayer. I wonder how much better it could be in vial-mav with wayfarer to wreck manabases as you said and vial/mom to protect SFM until EoT?

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Ultimately BS is a meta call imo.

Interesting take on Vial Maverick. My problem with Vial Maverick is that it lacks the utility GSZ builds have along with a rather questionable clock since it tends to durdle around alot.

Even with Vial, I wouldn't completely abandon GSZ since it's too good to pass. 1-2 copies sounds about right for extra consistency.

Ooze isn't random. Hell, many builds run 2 copies along 4 GSZ because it is that good.

Scryb Ranger's pro blue is useless against the new Nemesis guy since it can completey ignore it (or anything else you have). What about Quirion Ranger as a cheaper, and thus, faster alternative? It can enable Wayfarer shenanigans as early as T2.

Havent tried vial yet but I think you can still retain the utility of GSZ with only 1, maybe 2 copies. I agree on ooze, I think the 1st ooze might be better than the 4th knight.

Ranger doesnt stop nemesis but it cant stop ranger either, or most of maverick if a mom or safekeeper sticks. I really dont see the new kid shaking things up that badly since it needs equipment to race and pridemages answer that. I guess thats another shout out to retaining at least 1 zenith.

Edit- also nemesis' ass might look as good as merit lage's does but its FRONT sure doesnt! Lol

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Originally Posted by Barook

Interesting take on Vial Maverick. My problem with Vial Maverick is that it lacks the utility GSZ builds have along with a rather questionable clock since it tends to durdle around alot.

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You're right - there's quite a bit of durdling involved, including hate bear deployment that doesn't really help apply much pressure. However that's exactly when Dark Stage enters the scene. In my current testing I close between a third and a quarter of my games via Marit Lage. She's quite a powerhouse I must say.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Even with Vial, I wouldn't completely abandon GSZ since it's too good to pass. 1-2 copies sounds about right for extra consistency.

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Tombstalker pointed out the same thing and I'm actually happy to include 1-2 for my next rounds of testing.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Ooze isn't random. Hell, many builds run 2 copies along 4 GSZ because it is that good..

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Soon as I have a miser GSZ, a miser Ooze seems legit.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Scryb Ranger's pro blue is useless against the new Nemesis guy since it can completey ignore it (or anything else you have). What about Quirion Ranger as a cheaper, and thus, faster alternative? It can enable Wayfarer shenanigans as early as T2.

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You're of course right about that Nemesis guy. What I actually implied is that this dude might inspire more ex-Merfolk players to pick up their Fish and bring them to tourneys. Scryb is still decent at blocking the remaining 85% of their army. Quirion Ranger is a cool card, though in an SFM-heavy list I prefer Scryb due to her evasion.
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PS: You were actually the one to initially bring up ESG - cheers for that! :wink:

@ Klaus and anyone else using/used vials- have you tried 1 maybe 2 creatures with EtB removal abilities like say fiend hunter?

Played in a knight-ware tournament on Sunday for duals.

End record was 3-3.

Played a similar list to mishimakaz (Jack Wang), with a few things changed in the main and side to taste. I really liked having 3 deathrite shamans in the maindeck, with 2 hierarchs for backup.

Round 1: Dredge
Game 1: I wasteland my own dryad arbor early to get rid of 3 bridges, and he goes to town with zombies and narcomoeba. I topdeck a singleton scavenging ooze at 1 life, and begin eating 3 creatures out of his yard, putting me just outside of narcomoeba range. He eventually has to scoop.
Game 2: He makes 8 zombies turn two. My turn 1 MoM isn't enough.
Game 3: Very long match, I bog him early and we go to turns. I am able to squeak just enough damage in on turn 5 to win the match. Very lucky games despite not seeing one of my 3 deathrites, which I was leaning heavily on.

1-0

Round 2: Maverick (Brandon Chang)
Game 1: I must say I am a fan of Brandons, he has been playing maverick for a long time. Needless to say, I make a couple errors game 1, and it is over quickly. He creams me with strong plays.
Game 2: I get early deathrites which keep his knights small. Just enough removal with the 2 abrupt decays out of the board to keep the way clear for my batterskull, and I take the game.
Game 3: He mulls and keeps a low lander. I keep him on Forest and Plains for the rest of the game while I beat in with knights and eat instants to clock him.

2-0

Round 3: Tin Fins (Jacob Kory)
Game 1: Jacob wins on turn 2 very easily. He storms me by drawing a ton of cards and tendrils me ftw.
Game 2: Early Thalia and wastelands keep me alive while he draws nothing.
Game 3: I almost keep a hand with no land, a thoughtseize, and a surgical extraction. I throw it back, get a hand with 0 hate but at least some lands, and proceed to lose.

2-1

Round 4: Imperial Painter
Game 1: He just grindstones me with a spellskite and a revoker on Qasali pridemage
Game 2: He moons me, and with my low basic count of 1 forest 1 plains, I get locked out of the game while he beats with 1/1s 2/2s and 2/1s.

2-2

Round 5: Esper Stoneblade
Game 1: I get a sweet curve of deathrite into knight into thrun. He can't deal with thrun+mom and exalted triggers and loses with a jace on board and 2 snapcasters.
Game 2: He only plays lands and STP while I am playing stoneforge into batterskull and he just scoops. He drew very poorly in both games and I really think deathrite is a star here, shutting off half of the value of lingering souls and snapcaster mage which are both very good cards in this matchup.

3-2

Round 6: Goblins
At this point I can still finish in the top 10 for a prize, so I decide to stick it out.

Game 1: An active jitte, huge knight, and mom out early, and I still manage to lose to a nearly endless stream of little green men. He and I both play very skillfully, but I just end up losing to Krenko with no way to remove him.
Game 2: I get an early batterskull, but he keeps me low on lands and Pyrokenesises me killing a sick mom, deathrite shaman, and my dryad arbor (land 3 of 3). I scoop after he sees 4 golbins on the ringleader flips, since he has a vial and 4 lands, while I have a deathrite shaman and 2 lands.

Overall, I had a hard time with the goblins matchup with the dark splash, even with more removal out of the board. Engineered Explosives would have been chill here.

3-3

I had a good time at least and got to gain some valuable tournament play against many great players. I am looking forward to taking maverick in some form or another (starting to lean towards aether vial) to SCG LA on November 3rd, so I will let you guys know how it goes!

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

@ Klaus and anyone else using/used vials- have you tried 1 maybe 2 creatures with EtB removal abilities like say fiend hunter?

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Hey Tombstalker, coming from DnT, I've had Fiend Hunter on my radar from the beginning. I'm sure he pulls his weight, however my list has gotten pretty tight so that I wouldn't know what to cut atm.

I like how fiend hunter can pack a sword or randomly take emrakul to school giving the deck 6 possible cards in hand against SnT (8 I suppose counting wayfarers). Plus its a 5th 3 drop meaning ticking vial up to 3 is a little better. Probably only ever a 1-of though especially now with the new kid [Unexpectedly Absent] being spoiled. Heheh I look forward to saying "jace has gone UA"..

I did get a chance to test wayfarer last night. The lil dude is much better than I expected especially with fetches, crop rotation and knight activations. Brutal for a 1 drop plus he has excellent synergy with vial. Hes almost like mom 5-6 as far as threat assessment goes..

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

I like how fiend hunter can pack a sword or randomly take emrakul to school giving the deck 6 possible cards in hand against SnT (8 I suppose counting wayfarers). Plus its a 5th 3 drop meaning ticking vial up to 3 is a little better. Probably only ever a 1-of though especially now with the new kid [Unexpectedly Absent] being spoiled. Heheh I look forward to saying "jace has gone UA"..

I did get a chance to test wayfarer last night. The lil dude is much better than I expected especially with fetches, crop rotation and knight activations. Brutal for a 1 drop plus he has excellent synergy with vial. Hes almost like mom 5-6 as far as threat assessment goes..

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Under that logic, wouldn't it make sense to just play Mangara of Corondor? Older version of GW Vial (including Survival variants) ran Mangara with Quirion Ranger for abuse.

I suppose it would, although mangara then wants flickerwisps and doesnt leave a body behind. IDK hunter was just a thought but im gonna try it out later on today maybe. UA might prove superior though.

On another note the vial version of mav has felt really focused on land abuse (or maybe its just how ive been playing it?). Anyway now im wondering if loam and/or an exploration type effect wouldnt be worth tinkering with to better abuse this aspect. Either way the single crop rotation has been pretty nuts so far. Love that card.

Edit- NM I just got the mangara/ranger interaction. Pretty sweet.

I'm going to test Klaus' list with these minor changes:

-1 KotR (4 is too many in a DRS-infested meta and GSZ "counts" as the 4th Knight)
-1 Teeg

+ 1 Scavening Ooze
+ 1 GSZ

Maybe I should cut something else for the second Teeg (maybe Thalia #4?), but I think Teeg #2 could be put into the board for the matches were you really need him.

I like how the DD combo can end certain durdle match-ups out of nowhere.

The interaction between the low mana/land count and ESG for the boosts when you need them is interesting.

1 QPM would be a better cut than knight I think.

Also honestly I think safekeeper would be better in the board replaced with the 4th mom. It's been pretty terrible for me in this build. Again maybe it's my approach but between stage/depths and less lands + less reliance on lands and tutoring wasteland more often, lands are kinda scarce.

Safekeeper also doesn't let marit lage force through for lethal against chumps which I've found annoying a couple times already.

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Originally Posted by Barook

I'm going to test Klaus' list with these minor changes:

-1 KotR (4 is too many in a DRS-infested meta and GSZ "counts" as the 4th Knight)
-1 Teeg

+ 1 Scavening Ooze
+ 1 GSZ

Maybe I should cut something else for the second Teeg (maybe Thalia #4?), but I think Teeg #2 could be put into the board for the matches were you really need him.

I like how the DD combo can end certain durdle match-ups out of nowhere.

The interaction between the low mana/land count and ESG for the boosts when you need them is interesting.

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:D +1 GSZ, +1 Ooze was my latest addition to the list above. As Tombstalker suggested QPM and Teeg were cut to make room - both of which remaining 1-ofs are tutorable.
Props for the lively discussion.
Have a sweet w/e!

Is GSZ better than the Eladamri's Call that Door plays in the SB? Haven't played the Vial list much at this point, but it seems like a better fit. It fetches all creatures, not just the green ones, and we can actually wait for the opponent's play before we fetch and vial in the exact hatebear we need.

@klaus

Count me in as an ESG lover. This card is actually good!!!! Being playtesting for two days now and has overperformed. Trade it for the spot of BoP as they both are mana accelerators. Also put a GSZ mainboard and added 1 scavenging ooze for tutoring. Elvis :tongue: was a great idea.

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Originally Posted by kohulk

@klaus: Count me in as an ESG lover. This card is actually good!!!! Being playtesting for two days now and has overperformed. Trade it for the spot of BoP as they both are mana accelerators. Also put a GSZ mainboard and added 1 scavenging ooze for tutoring. Elvis :tongue: was a great idea.

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Glad you enjoy the Queen of Rock'n' Roll as much as I do. Got to give the props to Barook though - he initially inspired me to give her a spin.

On a different note: with that Nemesis dude entering the scene, being able to develop your board as quickly as possible has become more essential than ever.
I just played a competent Merfolk player and he basically won whenever he landed one. Expect this guy to push StoneBlade over the top as well. Time to dust off those Manriki Gusaris.
"Tarif" should also be considered as a SB option - works smoothly against Reanimator, SnT and a few other fatty decks.
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