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Losing 4 life (or even 2 life, really) to kill one of Zoo's creatures = frownie face, since all their shit fulfills the same function of dealing damage to your dome quickly, and you've just helped them with that proposition. Also, for the record we've basically already had this option with Snuff Out, albeit that card actually requires a true black splash and has different target-ability requirements. But I still think Dismember just won't work in Merfolk.
The notion that Mental Misstep is somehow bad against Zoo because of losing two life is a fallacioius line of thinking. Every 1cc card in Zoo besides Path to Exile is worth more than two damage against you, and I'd venture to guess that Path is as well, since it'll be removing a blocker or slowing you down a turn.
Did anyone say misstep was bad against zoo? We were saying that the -5/-5 spell is bad because 4 life is too much, I didn't see anyone saying 2 life against zoo was too much, we all know the importance of keeping lavamancer off the table.
Don't think I've ever boarded Force out in the Zoo matchup, honestly. That might be a meta concern because the Zoo players in my metagame play a hybrid of regular and fast zoo (no steppe lynx, but they run fireblast and one of them actually runs Price of Progress) and there are times when you absolutely positively have to have that counterspell for the fireblast, or you simply cannot let that Knight of the Reliquary resolve, etc.. yeah, the card disadvantage blows, but i've never really felt the need to board the card out in that match.Quote:
Originally Posted by bakofried
/shrug... Ymmv, my list wasn't ever really the accepted list, so I had room to bring in Submerge and whatever else I needed without having to board out FoW.
@ Swindy
Thanks again for some reasons to play Mishra's Factory. I will be testing it out soon.
@ Those Discussing Dismember
I am of the belief that unless you hit a big Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, or Terravore before they get bigger than five toughness there is no reason to play this in mono blue build. If you pay the four life to cast dismember then you may have effectively prevented a few damage, but you are still doing the zoo player's job for them. If you are running the black splash, it makes plenty of sense as it can remove quite a few threats and won't always cost you the four life and can be quicker than Snuff Out. I think running Mental Misstep makes some more sense. MM can counters their swarming "Kird" creatures (which can sometimes get in for more than two points of life), some of their burn and some of their removal. Overall I think this is a better play as it will allow more Dazes and FOWs to be in your hand to counter the scary things. This also circumvents color issues, being more vulnerable to Wasteland, and keeps blue card count high for FOW.
I always board 1 out and keep the other 3 in so hopefully I just draw 1 force, you almost always have to force something vs zoo. It's either their second burn spell on kira or if they land a stoneforge/equipment you just lose. Not to mention a turn 1 lavamancer is hard to beat.
what do you side out then vs zoo and vs canadian *****, lets say from this list here?
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Cursecatcher
4 Mental Misstep
4 Silvergill Adept
13 Island
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
4 Lord of Atlantis
1 Mishra's Factory
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
sbing (for me) is always the same, you can't sb out lords so it has to be something else. Counterspells and then cursecatcher
Zoo I would take out all the daze, 1 force and then cursecatchers depending on how many cards you are bring in. submerge, blast, maybe relic
Thresh is a pretty good matchup.. but you probably need blasts for bolts, lavamancer. Maybe some spell pierce or submerge for goyf/lavamancer. Relic is good also. Same thing again. Even though cursecatcher is good vs thresh you still can't sb out lords.
Just depends on how many cards you want to bring in
Against Zoo I take out Daze on the draw and Force on the play. Bring in Submerge and maybe either Jitte or the Blue Blasts to help your chances against Lavamancer ruining your day.
Also, if you missed the memo, Relic of Progenitus is a terrible card. Even against Goyf and Knight decks. Don't run it. Pick up Crypt instead (Or Leyline, since you can Mental Misstep Chain of Vapor now) and bring it in only when you most need it.
I missed this memo. Also, knight and goyf decks run chain of vapor? mulligan into leyline? You need 4 of them in your sb then and you're still not guaranteed to get it. And if you do, you still have 3 dead cards you can't even put on the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Yes, Daze is pretty bad on the play against Zoo. Wait, you have been on the play for game 2 against Zoo?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Also, I like Relic of Progenitus. Dredge decks seem to be a bit slower these days with the Tireless Tribe builds do much more popular. And it is actually worth siding in against the Junk decks with Terravore and Tarmo, though not as handy as it was against Aggro Loam. And I just plain like getting the extra card.
I use it to keep Lavamaners inactive and Goyf/Knights small. It works wonders in 4eak's build when you're using Shackles.
Against thresh, wouldn't you wanna side out Adept vs Cursecatcher anyways?
Okay, 1: The 4 Leyline notion is completely a mathematical myth. If you could run 8 of a card, would you have to have 8 Leylines or 0?Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Secondly, my point is, Relic of Progenitus is utter garbage against Zoo. Even if you're hitting a full 12 creatures with it. Lavamancer recovers. Goyf recovers. Knight recovers best of all. I'd rather play cards that are actually going to get their guys off the board. The effect can -seem- good sometimes, but you know what's better? Guys, counters, and removal. And what's worse, now Relic gets hit by Mental Misstep.
So I'd rather play yard hate that's actually going to be relevant against Dredge. Especially now that every Dredge deck on earth is going to pack Lion's Eye Diamond. Relic of Progenitus can be too slow against Dredge. Not always, but sometimes. And on top of that, you need to keep mana open, so it's really slowing you down a lot more than you want it to. I'd rather have Crypt, which will work on everything not on their first turn, Leyline, which while hard to cast will always get down before they can go off, or even Ravenous Trap. Or possibly one of each to reduce Therapy risks.
Actually, I've picked up quite a few game one wins against Zoo. Less than half, to be sure, but still.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
And see, I don't think it's worth its spot against Junk. Admitted, it's amazing against Terravore. If I expected a lot of Terravores, my opinion would shift. But I'd still just rather pack more Submerges and Sower of Temptations and go from there.
Thanks for the input :-) Relic might be worser than crypt if they all really use LED right now. I would like additional sowers in the board in this list, but dont know how to find space for it. i guess ill change relic to crypt. any other thoughts?
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Cursecatcher
4 Mental Misstep
4 Silvergill Adept
13 Island
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
4 Lord of Atlantis
1 Mishra's Factory
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
Since Merfolk with Mental Misstep seems to be the early frontrunner for the current deck to beat, I'm asking you:
Which deck (preferrably non-blue) has a really good matchup against Merfolk packing Misstep?
I heard Zoo is good, but I'm looking for more options..
That is an excellent question that I will not answer until after SCG Orlando.
When I played Junk, I always felt like I had a good MU with Merfolk because of all of the discard and Pernicious Deed main deck with Paths, extra Deeds and Engineered Plagues SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bongo
Just remember 2 thingsQuote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
1. it sucks early game compared to ANY other creature you can pump out, i'll even take a waste before it in my opening hand, it just becomes AMAZING late game as a top deck. However, dont mull to get rid of it. it's still an excelent 3/3 blocker while you set up a murderous rampage of fish
2. depending on your meta, 2 of factory is workable, more is not
I've been thinking about this question. Testing has shown that Goblins is now complete crap against the field, and eminently winnable for Merfolk. Zoo continues to lose ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bongo
Affinity comes to mind as a deck that should be highly favored against the fish. Dredge is another one.
That all said, I think the biggest thing to be concerned about is the mirror. The Merfolk mirror is probably the most draw-dependent I have ever played, thus building with an eye towards cards that are exceptional in the mirror seems like a good idea.