[Deck] The Rock

Played the Lavagrogg list with modified side as I posted a few pages back on Thursday. And I have to admit I struggled a bit for first time in 4 tournament finishing with unimpressive 2:2. I beat Canadian - one of the best matchups and ANT - matchup I enjoy a lot to play against (I mulled into oblivion game one, scooped and then won games two and three with zounds of dicard, Ethersworn Canonist, Teeg, Spellbomb)
But now the more important. I lost against punishing JUND and Elves. Jund manascrewed me with bolts, hymns, wastelands and with the fact I didnt draw many lands. We played a few games afterward - when I resolved full Lingering Souls I won - but this matchup is even imo.
Elves are traditionaly good against fair decks. They have so many angles of attack. Killed me with Behemont game one and with Jitte, game two. I think I will add another Ethersworn Canonist or extra Darkblast.

Jitte is extremly powerful against this version of JUNK. Have Abrupt Decay ready. Another cards that causes most worries: Sensei's Divining Top, Punishing Fire, Life from the Loam, Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

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Originally Posted by Koplinchen

Played the Lavagrogg list with modified side as I posted a few pages back on Thursday. And I have to admit I struggled a bit for first time in 4 tournament finishing with unimpressive 2:2. I beat Canadian - one of the best matchups and ANT - matchup I enjoy a lot to play against (I mulled into oblivion game one, scooped and then won games two and three with zounds of dicard, Ethersworn Canonist, Teeg, Spellbomb)
But now the more important. I lost against punishing JUND and Elves. Jund manascrewed me with bolts, hymns, wastelands and with the fact I didnt draw many lands. We played a few games afterward - when I resolved full Lingering Souls I won - but this matchup is even imo.
Elves are traditionaly good against fair decks. They have so many angles of attack. Killed me with Behemont game one and with Jitte, game two. I think I will add another Ethersworn Canonist or extra Darkblast.

Jitte is extremly powerful against this version of JUNK. Have Abrupt Decay ready. Another cards that causes most worries: Sensei's Divining Top, Punishing Fire, Life from the Loam, Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

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@ elves - when I ran deed and hymn elves was a very easy match-up. Now, with 8 removals, 7 discards, and deed and zealous on the side sounds good as well.
@ manascrew - quoting a friend of mine "good decks are suceptible to wasteland". I'm not afraid of life from the loam.
@ pfire jund - that is a pain. But the same way that happened to caw-blade in Standard, jund is a "trending" deck, and not everyone piloting it is good at it (same goes for bug). And we all have to concede that pfire is a lazy wincon (extirpate, surgical in response of the trigger, etc).
I DO miss reliquary, however goyf is big. If I could I'd make room for blossom, card is nice. When I ran BW with blossom and souls I used to laugh at jace :p

Went 3-2 in a 22-man legacy tourney placing 9th. Here's my quick list

3 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
4 knight of the reliquary
4 deathrite shaman

4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
3 maelstrom pulse

4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay

2 liliana of the veil
1 sensei's divining top
1 sylvan library

1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog
3 bayou
3 scrubland
3 wasteland
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats

SB
4 leyline of sanctity
3 surgical extraction
2 engineered explosives
2 diabolic edict
2 timely reinforcements
1 pernicious deed
1 perish

R1 vs scapewish nic fit: 1-2: i should hardcast sanctity instead of decaying his ooze so that it will not end up easily w/ scapeshift-valakut combo
R2 vs infect: 2-0
R3 vs affinity: 0-2: no removals, i think i will up my deeds, replacing my EEs
R4 vs RDW: 2-1
R5 vs MBC: 2-0

I thought i was facing many jund decks, cuz on the same local shop around 2-3 players playing jund so i include sanctity on my SB, what are your SB tech against jund?

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Originally Posted by Sughayyer

@ elves - when I ran deed and hymn elves was a very easy match-up. Now, with 8 removals, 7 discards, and deed and zealous on the side sounds good as well.
@ manascrew - quoting a friend of mine "good decks are suceptible to wasteland". I'm not afraid of life from the loam.
@ pfire jund - that is a pain. But the same way that happened to caw-blade in Standard, jund is a "trending" deck, and not everyone piloting it is good at it (same goes for bug). And we all have to concede that pfire is a lazy wincon (extirpate, surgical in response of the trigger, etc).
I DO miss reliquary, however goyf is big. If I could I'd make room for blossom, card is nice. When I ran BW with blossom and souls I used to laugh at jace :p

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Pernicious Deed is awfuly slow against Elves. Hymn is OK.

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Originally Posted by Koplinchen

Pernicious Deed is awfuly slow against Elves. Hymn is OK.

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I agree...but it can support your already strong removal plan. I like E-tutor into Engineered Plague, Deed is just a supplemental wiper.

I played a BW tokens list on Thursday just to take a break from Junk and won the tournament. Sorin, Lord of Innistrad with Bitterblossom and Lingering Souls is a thing.

Lingering Souls is definitely helpful in this matchup, I've found. Maelstorm Pulse out of nowhere can suck, but otherwise, super good.

-Matt

I've been testing on the Magic Workstation online abyss, and I've been destroying BUG Delver, CounterTop-Bant (seemed like an old list), and even did fairly well against Omni-Tell (Sculler is an all-star against that deck.)

I've really liked Duress so far over IoK...but there have been times I wish I had IoK.

I have to admit, Dark Confidant is a fucking house. I love drawing multiples, because the first usually hits the dirt. I know that this is common knowledge, but I just have to say it. He's winning a lot of games for me.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I've been testing on the Magic Workstation online abyss, and I've been destroying BUG Delver, CounterTop-Bant (seemed like an old list), and even did fairly well against Omni-Tell (Sculler is an all-star against that deck.)

I've really liked Duress so far over IoK...but there have been times I wish I had IoK.

I have to admit, Dark Confidant is a fucking house. I love drawing multiples, because the first usually hits the dirt. I know that this is common knowledge, but I just have to say it. He's winning a lot of games for me.

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bite the bullet and run thoughtseize.

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

bite the bullet and run thoughtseize.

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+1 this. It's far away better than any alternative; it's like the difference between strangleroot or ooze and goyf.

@matt did you run shaman in your bw list?

@all:
the list I used:

3 cabal therapy
2 iok
2 seize

4 stp
3 decay
1 pulse

2 liliana

1 top
1 library
1 jitte
1 sword of fire/ice

4 shaman
4 bob
4 goyf
4 souls
2 gsz

lands:
4 waste
4 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs
3 scrub
3 bayou
1 forest
1 swamp
1 dryad arbor

sideboard:
2 finks
1 gaddock
2 zealous persecution
2 deed (super synergy lol)
2 surgical
1 extirpate
3 hymn to tourach
2 oblivion ring

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Sorin, Lord of Innistrad with Bitterblossom and Lingering Souls is a thing.

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I asked a few pages ago how Lingering Souls + Sorin would play, as I thought it'd be really good (Sorin's +1/0 emblem >>>>> Elspeth's pump+jump ability). How often did you find yourself activating Sorin's ultimate?

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

I asked a few pages ago how Lingering Souls + Sorin would play, as I thought it'd be really good (Sorin's +1/0 emblem >>>>> Elspeth's pump+jump ability). How often did you find yourself activating Sorin's ultimate?

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I never got to activate the ultimate, unfortunately. He got sniped every time I played him (Bolt, EOT Mindcensor, etc.). But the +1/+0 was good.

@ Sug

Yes, i ran Deathrite. I'll post the list later for anyone's fun. But seriously, Jund has fits against that many tokens, holy hell.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

bite the bullet and run thoughtseize.

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:really: Playing 3 Thoughtseize maindeck...the other 3 slots are supplemental targeted disruption. I play 6 targeted discards, plus 2x Sculler, in my maindeck. It's a combo world in my area, it's been giving me options when I would normally just fold.

EDIT: Just won 2 matches vs. Pox online (4-1)

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

:really: Playing 3 Thoughtseize maindeck...the other 3 slots are supplemental targeted disruption. I play 6 targeted discards, plus 2x Sculler, in my maindeck. It's a combo world in my area, it's been giving me options when I would normally just fold.

EDIT: Just won 2 matches vs. Pox online (4-1)

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In that case, run IOK. and run 4 thoughtseize

Since its likely you will get thoughtseize in your opening hand, you can cover the rest with IOK.

besides, there aren't that many cards IOK can't get...Natural order, jace, sneak attack. belcher, and thats mostly it on top of my head.

Friend and I have been playing Rock lately. Me mostly in Cockatrice testing different cards for him, he does the playing with cardboard, since I derp around with UR Delvermagus mostly.

Today was GPT Strassbourg, he went 3-2, getting thirteenth.

R1: RUG 0-2, Had not practiced Mu too much and run into some pretty cheap traps.
R2: UR Delvermagus (me) 2-0, So tournament ruined for one of us. He emerged winner after two tight games.
R3: Burn 1-2, Lost pretty tightly
R4: Zoo 2-1
R5: Goblins 2-1
One more win for top8, though meta had 9 combos, and winning that Burn would probably leave him playing some of them, so hard to predict. First round opponent Rug played in finals.

And here's the list

Maindeck:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Lingering Souls
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Engineered Plague
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Darkblast
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Duress
2 Oblivion Ring

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

besides, there aren't that many cards IOK can't get...Natural order, jace, sneak attack. belcher, and thats mostly it on top of my head.

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Did you notice how all of those win games? Not 1 of those cards can be concidered less than a threat. There are reasons Pulse is still a thing in our lists, post Decay. Spells are the issue, not creatures.

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

Did you notice how all of those win games? Not 1 of those cards can be concidered less than a threat. There are reasons Pulse is still a thing in our lists, post Decay. Spells are the issue, not creatures.

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Thats why you still have 4 thoughtseizes...why would you run 3 thoughtseizes and 3 iok/duress?

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

Thats why you still have 4 thoughtseizes...why would you run 3 thoughtseizes and 3 iok/duress?

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Agreed. Even against burn, you're saving yourself some damage.

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

Agreed. Even against burn, you're saving yourself some damage.

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IoK hits a ton of burn's spells, and Duress hit almost 100% of Burn's spells. Thoughtseize is still a free Shock to them. Goblin Guide can be killed with Decay/Swords/superior blockers.

From damionblackgear:

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Did you notice how all of those win games? Not 1 of those cards can be concidered less than a threat. There are reasons Pulse is still a thing in our lists, post Decay. Spells are the issue, not creatures.

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This is the biggest reason for playing Duress alongside Thoughtseize, it trades with a TON of threatening cards. The only reason I used IoK in my last local tournament was because the only real combo deck was Show and Tell...and IoK deals with aggro decks nicely while still hitting S&T.

Lastly, I'd play 4x Thoughtseize, but I only have 3. Biggest reason right there, but I still want 6 turn 1 discards that target. That's just how I roll. In all seriousness, I actually sideboard out TS for Hymn in the sideboard against burn.

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

Agreed. Even against burn, you're saving yourself some damage.

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I was leaving that one out of it for a reason. It's a common misconception but, you're not saving yourself anywhere near the amount of damage this is played to. Example, Lightning Bolt is 3 damage. If you take it with Thoughtseize, you've saved 1 damage. Fireblast is 2 damage. Your best hope is to take Price when you've been unable to play basics.

Even if you're taking something that does more that the Thoughtseize. there's no guaranteeing that they would've needed that card or that the 1-2 life you're saving is relevant. You also gave them 2 damage free of charge. If there's one thing that everyone's love of Force of will should have taught you in this matter, "Free is worth an extra card."

Thoughtseizing a burn deck (or deck with reach) is giving them an extra tool to win, You. Against those decks, both Duress and IoK are superior to Thoughtseize. Also, depending on the meta, that's also the reason to run a 3/3 split.

When Burn was doing well from all the new players at SCG, I ran IoK over Thoguhtseize (4/0). My sideboard card at the time was Duress. I played it that way because, at that time, there weren't all the different threats above 3. IoK dealt with all but about 4 cards in the format which were all part of already bad match-ups. In today's meta, there are decks designed to be able to last and use cards that cost 4+ to win the game. IoK is no longer able to get as much value as it previously did. Duress is more capable as an assist to the discard package.

-Edit- Did I ever mention how much I hate being the opening post of a page?