[Deck] Goblins

I hear a lot of people saying that goblin sharpshooter is the best card vs elves, almost an auto-win.
Do you realize how current elves decklist are constructed ? The last ones which made top 8 run 3-4 Natural Order that is used to play the recently printed Craterhoof Behemot from avacyn restored. This line of play allows them to consistently win by turn 3 or turn 4 at worst, because they play a lot of mana dudes and 3-4 Gaea's Cradle. Since now , elves usually didn't play natural order because the only possible targets were Regal Force and Progenitus wich are a bit slow because they're not an istant win like the behemot.
Of course they still have the possibility to combo off with Glimpse of Nature but now it's becoming less and less fundamental for their strategy.
So sharpshooter is a good card vs elves, but most of the time he won't have time to get active before we're dead. Every faster removal is better than sharpshooter because we must kill their early mana elves, and if we also manage to waste their cradle we can easily win. Of course the card that i would always want to have in hand vs elves is Pyrokinesis.

[QUOTE= I'm more worried about the delvers here. In my experience the Flying 3/2 hurts more than a vanilla beater that I can chump if I have to.

Tarfires help v Delvers, as do Pyros out of the SB


I've come to recent conclusions

Rishadan Ports don't do the job of locking down mana due to Hierarch's and Shamans etc

Tarfires are needed as fast 1cc removal

4 MWM & 4 Piledrivers are fantastic

Stingscourger essential

Gempalms are too slow without tarfires and don't reach tombstalkers etc, why MWM and stingscourger also needed

Warchief better than chieftains for speed and cheap ringleaders etc through caverns

Krenko win more card, 2 SGC as fatties more versatile. extra finishing direct damage and removal

TSH needed as artifact removal but only in SB

Engineered plagues require in SB Boartusk that is also immune to abrupt decay


So my list is

4 Lackey
4 Vial
4 Tarfire

4 MWM
4 Piledriver
2 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm

4 Matron
4 Warchief

4 Ringleader
2 SGC

4 Caverns
4 Wasteland
13 Mountains

SB
3 Pyro
4 Chalice of Void
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Boartusk Liege

The list tries to keep the curve down, have fast removal and MWM chumps, to get to mid game ringleaders.
Of course lackey connect SGC followed by pilley if lucky, but MWM and pilleys also hurt!

As for enchantments, well mono red has that weakness and anarchy slow!

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Originally Posted by orcanmail

Tarfires are needed as fast 1cc removal

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I m having some inner rejection for tarfires lately. The argument: it is better than other removals (bolt, punishing fire) because it is a goblin doesn t hold with this card. The advantage of being a goblin removal should be because you could tutor it up with matron (1) and you could flip it with ringleader (2). However, neither of these circumstances is going to be relevant for the following reasons:

(1) When are you realistically going to tutor tarfire with matron? Matron is a mid/late game card that you are going to cast T3 earliest. If you are tutoring up a removal you are going to get gempalm/stingscourger 99% of the times for obvious reasons.

(2) ringleader is also a late game card. You cast it to refill your hand with gas. You want to flip SCG, ringleaders, matrons, gempalms, krenko, piledrivers. Flipping tarfire is in most cases like flipping a late game lackey. Sure, better than nothing but it is probably not gonna flip the game around.

You need a tarfire effect in the early game to let lackey go nuts or to prevent stoneforge to survive her next upkeep. So if this is the scenario you want to use tarfires, fetching tarfire with matron or flipping them with ringleader in late game it is going to be irrelevant. You want them T1 or T2. For this reason I believe that if you want a tarfire effect it doesn t matter that much that it is tribal goblin. You want to have it in your first 7-9 cards anyways.

I do agree that a tarfire effect is needed nowadays. The most suitable ones for goblins are tarfire, bolt and punishing fire. Punishing Fire is the best top deck of all tree, therefore, I believe it has an edge over the others. Costing one mana more is irrelevant most of the times.

I agree with fimo.

But please consider Swords to Plowshares.It is the best removal you could ask for.

So I'm going to start by saying that I am new here, and have read through this entire post and would like to thank everyone for the awesome discussions. It's really been helping me with the construction of my Goblins deck. :cool:

Now I'm going to make a suggestion, that most of you will probably yell at/curse/hate me for...I've been play testing goblins for about 3 months now, and am in full agreement that we need to become more explosive to keep pace with the current meta. My meta happens to be positively flooded with BUG and UW decks of all varieties. And what I've found is that our classic strategy of attacking our opponents mana base is largely invalid against most of the current meta (elves being the only exception to shut off gaea's cradle)

Has anyone thought of dropping wasteland and rishadan port?

In my play testing I'm finding when I do use them most of the time my opponent doesn't even flinch. And most of the current decklists I've been seeing have already cut port's already (since they are too slow in the current meta). Since that limits us to only 4 land hate cards, that also set our very mana-hungery deck back, why not drop it and attempt to use those 7-8 slots to try and speed us up a bit?

I'm going to be play testing with Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors in the usual port/waste spots on tuesday. Is this is an absolutely horrible idea? A good meta call for myself? Or perhaps a good boost that our beloved Goblins need at the moment?

I'm curious to hear your guys $0.02 :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Remy

So I'm going to start by saying that I am new here, and have read through this entire post and would like to thank everyone for the awesome discussions. It's really been helping me with the construction of my Goblins deck. :cool:

Now I'm going to make a suggestion, that most of you will probably yell at/curse/hate me for...I've been play testing goblins for about 3 months now, and am in full agreement that we need to become more explosive to keep pace with the current meta. My meta happens to be positively flooded with BUG and UW decks of all varieties. And what I've found is that our classic strategy of attacking our opponents mana base is largely invalid against most of the current meta (elves being the only exception to shut off gaea's cradle)

Has anyone thought of dropping wasteland and rishadan port?

In my play testing I'm finding when I do use them most of the time my opponent doesn't even flinch. And most of the current decklists I've been seeing have already cut port's already (since they are too slow in the current meta). Since that limits us to only 4 land hate cards, that also set our very mana-hungery deck back, why not drop it and attempt to use those 7-8 slots to try and speed us up a bit?

I'm going to be play testing with Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors in the usual port/waste spots on tuesday. Is this is an absolutely horrible idea? A good meta call for myself? Or perhaps a good boost that our beloved Goblins need at the moment?

I'm curious to hear your guys $0.02 :laugh:

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This is about the most insightful idea that I've read in a few months.
I cannot judge yet wether Sol-Lands (Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, since they produce the same mana as Sol Ring) are a good idea or not and I'm also not sure about the number but I can share my experience and opinion with you.
Some 2 years ago I tested Ancient Tomb in Goblins, since I wanted to make more use of those 2R-costing Goblins (Matron, Sharpshooter, Tuktuk the Explorer, Mad Auntie, you name it) while having CHalice of the Void and Bllod Moon in MD. Back then someone already proposed such a list (Goblin Stompy).
While this all-in-focus onSol-Lands turned out to be a bad idea (or at least worse than the regular Vial-GOblin approach) I still liked the Sol-Lands in there. So my suggestions would be not to focus too much on abusing Sol-Lands.
Another thing I found out quite recently is that Wastelands are indeed not very effective at screwing your opponent. This usually only works out when you can effort to lose a manasource, which would be the case if you have 1 or more Aether Vials online. So, as you already figured out: manascrewing your opponent is not what you should be aiming at. If you are unsure if it works, dont do it. You need mana. You need lots of it - which is basically why you came up with the Sol-Land idea in the first place. However, we can't effort to cut Wasteland entirely since it gets us out of some ugly situations where opponent's utility lands are blocking our lines of play. Wasteland is therefore included to deal with Maze of Ith, any manland, Gaea's Cradle and Academy Ruins and stuff. I don't think it's a good idea to cut them entirely, although reducing their number is quite possible.

I really like to hear more about your testing results on the Sol-Land thing!

I have a dragon stompy and play with the deck for some time, so I can tell one thing or two.

Ancient tomb/city: I dont like this cards in our deck, tomb damages us, and most of the time you will not find use for it: warchief is 1RR, pile is 1R.. ok, we have ringleaders and matrons, seriosly, I dont want matron T2, ringleader sometimes, but seldom. Ok, sometimes it will be great, but city for example you blow most of the times, because we run a lot of lands.. If city gets exploded in dragon stompy with 18 lands, can you imagine what will happen running 20~22 lands? You can test it, but I think it will not work.

But chrome mox.. well, that is something I can think about. Chrome mox dont get wasted, and is not like everyone is running artifact removal MD. And if there is a deck in legacy that can run chrome mox and lose a card for it, is goblins. We draw a lot, and i usually find double lackey hand, when i know i dont need the other one. And one more thing, chrome mox + mountain = chalice 1 T1. This can win alone against TES, this can beat Belcher.

I have a crazy idea, a list very unusual, i will test it tomorrow against BUG and will report later.
Cya

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Remy

I'm going to be play testing with Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors in the usual port/waste spots on tuesday. Is this is an absolutely horrible idea? A good meta call for myself? Or perhaps a good boost that our beloved Goblins need at the moment?

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I have played Ancient Tomb in different lists before, but the meta was different, and maybe today they might be a good choice.
If you're going to do that, think of 1cc removal, because usually you will want to escalate from 1cc to 3cc, so your 2cc removal will be worse.
Also, be aware that you'll play the game differently, because you'll be able to cast Matron and the likes before casting Warchief/Chieftain. That changes something.s

Let us know how it plays for you.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

This is about the most insightful idea that I've read in a few months.

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Thanks for the kind words!

And very true about the "problem" lands we have to deal with, my meta largely doesn't run mentioned cards, which may affirm my feeling that the sol-land thing is largely a meta call. I'll be sure to post my results, I'll be facebashing against BUG, Dredge and Might Quinn on tuesday so I'll have a decent variety to try against.

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Ancient tomb/city: I dont like this cards in our deck, tomb damages us, and most of the time you will not find use for it: warchief is 1RR, pile is 1R.. ok, we have ringleaders and matrons, seriosly, I dont want matron T2, ringleader sometimes, but seldom. Ok, sometimes it will be great, but city for example you blow most of the times, because we run a lot of lands.. If city gets exploded in dragon stompy with 18 lands, can you imagine what will happen running 20~22 lands? You can test it, but I think it will not work.

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I was a little worried about the RR costs as well, but my theory is that turn 3 dropping 2 piledrivers into play (off of 2 red sources and a sol-land) could help compensate. I had tried chome mox in early testing and found that often I didn't want to lose a card to it (we run plenty of copies but it feels opposed to our swarm strategy to lose one) Recently though I have been reconsidering Mox Diamond.

Since we typically run 22-24 lands anyway we have plenty of pitchable lands, and it gives us the same ramp, on top of helping with splashes, so this may get play tested Tuesday as well.

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Also, be aware that you'll play the game differently, because you'll be able to cast Matron and the likes before casting Warchief/Chieftain. That changes something.s

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Very true...and that may end up making it not worth it, but testing will tell :smile:

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Originally Posted by fimo

I m having some inner rejection for tarfires lately.

You need a tarfire effect in the early game to let lackey go nuts or to prevent stoneforge to survive her next upkeep. So if this is the scenario you want to use tarfires, fetching tarfire with matron or flipping them with ringleader in late game it is going to be irrelevant. You want them T1 or T2. For this reason I believe that if you want a tarfire effect it doesn t matter that much that it is tribal goblin. You want to have it in your first 7-9 cards anyways.

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There are times when tarfire later on have either saved me or won me games

for example when i'm going down to a flipped delver, a matron into a tarfire saves my ass.

also at times i am going to die next turn and i am 2 damage short of killing my opponent in my turn, then i realise i have a matron that i vial in and burn them with my cheap 1cc tarfire.

So yes primarily tarfire is for early removal to control mana pump creatures and make way for lackey and kill stoneforges etc, but a few extra points of goblin burn can win games! Especially if you also play 2 SGC.

On the wasteland debate, they usually aren't there for mana screw, but in addition to destroying maze of ith etc, they can also keep an opponent off a colour. of course they can also slow them a bit if we have a vial. Rishadan ports are ineffective, but wastelands remain strong in legacy and we should still have enough red mana to cast our goblins.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fimo

I do agree that a tarfire effect is needed nowadays. The most suitable ones for goblins are tarfire, bolt and punishing fire. Punishing Fire is the best top deck of all tree, therefore, I believe it has an edge over the others. Costing one mana more is irrelevant most of the times.

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Someone suggested Swords to Plowshares as well?

Hmm, what about Turbo-Goblins that have been pushed a little before Mental Misstep?

Lands [20]
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands

Dudes [31]
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss

Others [9]
4 AEther Vial
3 Chrome Mox
2 Warern Weirding

Sideboard [15]
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Anarchy

Just stomp face with Warren Instigator, and don't care about Deathrite Shaman&co.

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Originally Posted by orcanmail

There are times when tarfire later on have either saved me or won me games

for example when i'm going down to a flipped delver, a matron into a tarfire saves my ass.

also at times i am going to die next turn and i am 2 damage short of killing my opponent in my turn, then i realise i have a matron that i vial in and burn them with my cheap 1cc tarfire.

So yes primarily tarfire is for early removal to control mana pump creatures and make way for lackey and kill stoneforges etc, but a few extra points of goblin burn can win games! Especially if you also play 2 SGC.

On the wasteland debate, they usually aren't there for mana screw, but in addition to destroying maze of ith etc, they can also keep an opponent off a colour. of course they can also slow them a bit if we have a vial. Rishadan ports are ineffective, but wastelands remain strong in legacy and we should still have enough red mana to cast our goblins.

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This, I've played Goblins for 6 years and I can't even count how many times I've won games by gathering Mogg Fanatics with Goblin Ringleader and Goblin Matron in order to deal the last 1 to 4 points of damage, let alone being able to deal the last 2 to 8 damage. Whether or not it's the best removal spell is debatable, I'm a fan of Dismember in mono-red myself

@Orcanmail, I think your preference for Warchief over Chieftan may be biased by your low land count.

@Jin, anyone who says Tarmogoyf is a joke vs Goblins has never played the RUG match up and if the opponent is casting his removable spells on Army Loyalist as opposed to any other Goblin then I'm going to fist pump that I just traded my one drop for a Lightning Bolt instead of for a Piledriver or Chieftan. If the opponent kills Army Loyalist and removes first strike and trample, then your Goblins still trade evenly without first strike. If the opponent doesn't kill Army Loyalist, Piledriver may as well have flying.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

Hmm, what about Turbo-Goblins that have been pushed a little before Mental Misstep?

Lands [20]
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands

Dudes [31]
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss

Others [9]
4 AEther Vial
3 Chrome Mox
2 Warern Weirding

Sideboard [15]
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Anarchy

Just stomp face with Warren Instigator, and don't care about Deathrite Shaman&co.

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I really like Winstigator. I'm playing this list atm:

1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Warren Instigator
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Tarfire
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
1 Taiga
1 Gemstone Caverns
2 Plateau

SB: 2 Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Confusion in the Ranks
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter

It's not 100% "turbo", has some more utility in it.
I feel like I don't need Warchief with 4 Winstigator (i believe everyone here is gonna hate me for that sentence? :D), 4 Lackeys and 4 Vials + Chieftain who makes Winstigator a nice basher do work out.
I like Kiki over Krenko because he gives more utility and not only the option to kill with tokens.
Gemstone Caverns, best land in legacy :DD
on SB im not sure at all ...

Unfortunatly I wasn't able to test this at all since my local legacy community is kinda ... "dormant" and the next local tour is in feburary.


I'd be happy to be proven wrong on my choice, but they just feel right for me. pls no arguments like "we had this allrdy chieftain is no warchief, he sux"

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

This, I've played Goblins for 6 years and I can't even count how many times I've won games by gathering Mogg Fanatics with Goblin Ringleader and Goblin Matron in order to deal the last 1 to 4 points of damage, let alone being able to deal the last 2 to 8 damage. Whether or not it's the best removal spell is debatable, I'm a fan of Dismember in mono-red myself

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I also like dismember. And I like playing with goblin lists that run many removal spells. However I think right now we have a very solid collection of goblin shaped removal:
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1-2 Stingscourger
1-2 Sparksmith
1-2 Army Loyalist (although I dont like this card, he IS indeed kind of a removal spell vs Esperblade in the sense that removal means "clearing the way").

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

@Orcanmail, I think your preference for Warchief over Chieftan may be biased by your low land count.

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I think YOUR preference for Chieftain over Warchief may be biased by your high land count. ;-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

@Jin, anyone who says Tarmogoyf is a joke vs Goblins has never played the RUG match up and if the opponent is casting his removable spells on Army Loyalist as opposed to any other Goblin then I'm going to fist pump that I just traded my one drop for a Lightning Bolt instead of for a Piledriver or Chieftan. If the opponent kills Army Loyalist and removes first strike and trample, then your Goblins still trade evenly without first strike. If the opponent doesn't kill Army Loyalist, Piledriver may as well have flying.

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+1 for the bold part


Apart from that:
I don't get the fuzz here. What's wrong with the good, old, solid Goblin deck as we know it? Is it really necessary to consider those weird lists with Punishing Fire, Sol-Lands, Chrome Mox, you name it? Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that people shouldn't try things out, but we have to realize that Goblins is currently a major player in the format and that the deck is as well-positioned as it could be. If someone has trouble in dealing with the other DTBs I suggest just to playtest more and play tight. Please don't be so desperate to solely rely on your SB or on other weird cardchoices. If you lose a match or two against other DTBs thats just fine, since they are DTB for a reason. if you can confidently say to have an even MU against RUG, BUG and Esperblade thats as far as you can go.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Anybody not playing 4 Piledriver and War Marshal is doing it wrong, War Marshal wasn't included for Zoo it was included for Tarmogoyf.dec. and I hear BUG is good.

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That's not true

On a side note: maybe we could replace Rishadan Ports with more Skirk Prospectors? They can give us that speed boost when needed, help against Jitte and Batterskull. I doubt our opponents like to spend removal on a prospector. Maybe naturally drawing them is better than having to spend a Matron on it?

/edit:

Isn't Boggard Mob very good in the current meta? It can't be killing by Decay, survives lightning bolts and is bigger than most threats (unless goyf is 5/6). It can even block Batterskull and survive. It also helps rebuild after a a sweeper from U/W miracles. If your opponent doesn't answer it immediately it will win the game for you.

Speed Goblins
Discuss!

4Legion Loyalist
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Wardriver
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Mogg War Marshal
14 Mountain
3 Wasteland
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Goblin Guide

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Apart from that:
I don't get the fuzz here. What's wrong with the good, old, solid Goblin deck as we know it? Is it really necessary to consider those weird lists with Punishing Fire, Sol-Lands, Chrome Mox, you name it? Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that people shouldn't try things out, but we have to realize that Goblins is currently a major player in the format and that the deck is as well-positioned as it could be. If someone has trouble in dealing with the other DTBs I suggest just to playtest more and play tight. Please don't be so desperate to solely rely on your SB or on other weird cardchoices. If you lose a match or two against other DTBs thats just fine, since they are DTB for a reason. if you can confidently say to have an even MU against RUG, BUG and Esperblade thats as far as you can go.

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Just healthy brainstorm I guess.
If I were to play a big tournament, than I'd play a standard list by now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

Speed Goblins
Discuss!

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Playtest!
(only comment I can give without playtesting is that Matron looks better than Ringleader there)

@Humphrey

I like that list! But it needs moar Tarfire and the playset of Gempalm. Gempalm is one of the best cards in the core and it gets that much better if you have a Loyalist in play to take advantage of First Strike.

I think the problem Loyalist will encounter, though, is that you will have to start cutting cards from the Core to incorporate Loyalist. Its probably going to evolve into an entirely different build. With so much MWM, Chieftain get better. So does Piledriver, Krenko, and Loyalist. Then again, Warchief gets worse. The best way to approach altering the Core is probably to cut a Warchief. Matron and Ringleader are far too important to the deck to cut. Loyalist looks best as a 3'of. As a 1'of, its basically just a bad Matron target, and at 2'of, you aren't really justifying playing more Chieftains and Piledrivers.


I'm a huge fan of Goblin Bushwacker because it does some really retarded things with MWM and Loyalist. I don't think its worth running as a 4'of though.

I'd try..

CRACKLINS
3 Legion Loyalist
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Pyromancer
4 Mogg War Marshal
14 Mountain
3 Wasteland
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Tarfire
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Goblin Guide

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Remy

Has anyone thought of dropping wasteland and rishadan port?

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and

Quote:

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Originally Posted by orcanmail

Rishadan Ports don't do the job of locking down mana due to Hierarch's and Shamans etc

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You know I'd like to discuss port a bit more. I actually love this card. Playing a turn 1 vial and then turn 2 hitting them with a port and locking that land down. Drop that lackey on their EOT and plan on using it to play SGC. Then you hit their other land with with that wasteland. Ah. So Magical when that happens.

These days now we have Cavern of Souls, which is a fantastic card. Problem is, it really screws you when you need red mana to play non-creature spells or abilities (No GEM-PALM!). It's happened more often than I'd like and more importantly, it's cost me games! For me they have to go. The question now becomes how many to cut?

I figure that the only reason to include them is to put people off mana in the first couple of turns, so to really get the most out of them, I think it's best to play it as a 4-of or not at all. So I'm going to cut them for some basics and see how that goes.