[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by Nidd

Wow, ignorant much?[...]

Seriously, you're dismissing the point one of the most experienced, regular posters on this forum who actually plays ANT and just say he writes bullshit and his version is bad? Great way to get help from Storm pilots.

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He's not ignorant but CRITICAL against someone who tries to undermine his statements with the good, old "believe-me-cause-I'm-right"-reasoning.
Nobody wants to get any help, we are just discussing things.

@ TOPIC:

I think we should leave at the point that we still have different oppinions on combo hate (ranging from 0 to 8 solts that can be filled with

Mindbreak Trap
Thorn of Amethyst
Chalice of the Void
Null Rod
Pyrostatic Pillar
Earwig Squad
Discard

depending on how good/bad the player is, which list he runs and how many combo deck we expect to face.

In the end have no "one and only" solution but discussed advantages and disadvantages of differnt combination of cards.

Agreed?

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

He's not ignorant but CRITICAL against someone who tries to undermine his statements with the good, old "believe-me-cause-I'm-right"-reasoning.
Nobody wants to get any help, we are just discussing things.

@ TOPIC:

I think we should leave at the point that we still have different oppinions on combo hate (ranging from 0 to 8 solts that can be filled with

Mindbreak Trap
Chalice of the Void
Null Rod
Pyrostatic Pillar
Earwig Squad
Discard

depending on how good/bad the player is, which list he runs and how many combo deck we expect to face.

In the end have no "one and only" solution but discussed advantages and disadvantages of differnt combination of cards.

Agreed?

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I don't even know what your decklist is, but from the sound of it, it's not one I'm likely to run into. I'm not going to run null rods just so I can have a good game against a deck that I'm not likely to run into unless I'm 0 and 2. I'm trying to gear up against tendrils decks that actually win

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That sounds pretty ignorant to me.


In my eyes, Storm Hate should be judged by the amount of relevant cards it can hit. CotV hits a ton of them, but can be played around by developed versions, streamlined ones still can luck out, but it makes it hard enough for them.
Now you have to see whether you still want to have a shot against the developed versions. 1 plan is Null Rod, which is relevant, because DDANT tends to be slower than ANT.
The best bet against developed versions is to go for the "disruption backed up with serious beatings" plan. Remember, DDANT can still win at 2 life, disruption is somewhat more important here than applying pressure fast enough, the combo deck will be faster than you if you don't hinder his gameplan enough to make your green men go the way.

In my opinion, CotV + Discard accomplishes this best, but don't expect to have a MU as good as against ANT when facing DDANT with these SB options.

Mindbreak Trap
Chalice of the Void
Null Rod
Pyrostatic Pillar
Earwig Squad
Discard

Why not Thorn too? Pretty good against stuff that isn't combo like Tempo Thresh or the like; costs as much mana as Rod or Pillar, but doesn't stop our vials or burn ourselves down (besides, people can combo around pillar easily).

I have a question about artifact hate. How important is it to have a one-of tutor option maindeck (Tinkerer, Scrapper, etc.)? It seems that there are lots times where it would be useless and there are times where it seems like it could pull you out of a tight spot. Is it a personal call? A meta call? Or is it something that you shouldn't worry about maindeck and if you do need it sideboard it?

@Nidd: What's so ignorant about paying more attention to the ANT deck that's top 8'ing at SCG opens and makes up about 5% of the field? That's the one I want to have good SB against. The only doomsday deck I'm seeing that was played in the opens was played once and finished with 6 points. If I can win a couple rounds, ANT is likely to be the only tendrils deck I run into. And the top 8 decklists are all pretty much identical to each other. Some run orim's chant or silence, while some run thoughtseize. That's pretty much the only difference. I want to hear a good argument as to why Null Rod is the best answer to THAT deck.

The only argument null rod supporters have vs chalice is SDT. Are we really suggesting that you stop an ANT deck by shutting down the top?

And I feel like I'm wasting my time trying to compare chalice vs null rod anyway, since I'm not playing either. I think I'm just trying to help everyone else out by pointing out how horrible it is to play a 2 drop when you could be playing a 0 drop against a fast combo deck. That's such a relevant point that keeps getting overlooked in this discussion.

But I'm running 3 thoughtseize and 2 duress as my anti-combo package, which is also helpful against other decks. Why would I run null rod over those cards?

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Originally Posted by nightmaster

I have a question about artifact hate. How important is it to have a one-of tutor option maindeck (Tinkerer, Scrapper, etc.)? It seems that there are lots times where it would be useless and there are times where it seems like it could pull you out of a tight spot. Is it a personal call? A meta call? Or is it something that you shouldn't worry about maindeck and if you do need it sideboard it?

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You dont necessarily need artifact hate in the main I think. The only artifact Im 'afraid' of is Jitte. I would put one (arti hate) in my SB.

I have come to the conclusion after reading the last 2 pages that combo hate really is worthless lol, I think i'm just going to devote my board to decks where the hate is effective. I used to run a hate package of 3 traps and 4 chalice and even that wasn't enough against ANT a majority of the time.

So this is what my board looks like right now... I think it's a very flexible board:

1 Earwig squad
1 Faerie macabre
1 Tuktuk scrapper
2 Anarchy
3 Perish
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Leyline of the void

I've heard others comment that 3 pyrokinesis and 3 perish is overkill, and I might agree. If I wasn't running discard to battle combo (among other things), I'd probably be running blood moons. Maybe you could find room for 2-3 blood moons.

The problem with mono red goblins is that ignoring storm combo is more or less not possible. In most matchups any non-goblin card is just worse than any goblin in your main deck. Statistically good ringleaders have proven to be way more effective to me than boarding in Thorn of Amethyst against blue decks or so. To tell the truth, Pyrokinesis sucks against zoo. In 15 postboard test games I have only once have the opportunity to kill 3 creatures with it and I already lost about 3 of those games because my Ringleaders had 2 Pyrokinesis in them. Sideboard options like Perish are indeed definitely good enough to board in against zoo and to dilute your ringleaders but if you go mono red which is definitely not for budget constraints in my case but the deck is simply stronger in my given metagame.

So far my board has been:

4 Blood Moon (Imo 4 are needed to reliably get one, those are for Lands and other decks that scoop to it)
4 Pyrostatic Pillar (Storm combo only, this will make them go the Ill-Gotten gains route or kill them if they only play Ad Nauseam)
4 Fairy Macabre (When storm combo takes the IGG route and they might even chant you before you crush them, besides kills Ichorid, Reanimator, Lands, Loam, messes up Cabal Ritual...is free and doesn't succumb to Duress or chant or bounce or Counters... even owns some Doomsday Piles including IGG)
1 Tuktuk Scrapper (he is indeed required and quite effective at what he does. My most boarded sideboard card, there to kill Jitte)
1 Goblin Sharpshooter (Merfolk, Elves, Goblins, Ichorid, NoGoyf, Moat)
1 Boartusk Liege (Firespout, Pyroclasm, Plague, your dudes feel too small? Awesome card)

In general I don't bring in any non-goblin cards for matchups where card advantage matters. Only really bad matchups get solved by the sideboard, some get ignored and the rest is more advantageous with my maindeck configuration featuring some effective silver bullets postboard.

The only change I am sometimes making is:
Faery <-> Relic and
Blood Moon <-> Shattering Spree

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Originally Posted by Muradin

4 Fairy Macabre (When storm combo takes the IGG route and they might even chant you before you crush them, besides kills Ichorid, Reanimator, Lands, Loam, messes up Cabal Ritual...is free and doesn't succumb to Duress or chant or bounce or Counters... even owns some Doomsday Piles including IGG)

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Never screwed by discard (Thought Seize, Cabal Therapy)? I always mix my graveyard hate.

@Nelis - I think he means he can use it in response. But I'm pretty sure they would hit you with discard before the fairy had a good target, so mixing it up isn't a bad idea. He said he sometimes alternates between fairy and relic though.

@Muradin - I like that board, except that pyrokinesis is strong against every deck sharpshooter is, in addition to zoo. For me, it usually hits 2 creatures, which I think is worth it. I'm really concerned because zoo is our worst match up (other than a few random rogue decks or belcher), so I have to have something to answer it. Does monored perform better against zoo than red/black? I've only tested that matchup once, and zoo smoked me. The chieftains didn't stay on the table, and they wouldn't have been enough to stop tarmogoyfs anyway. I'm guessing monored tries to outrace them with chieftain and war marshal, but I still feel more comfortable splashing black and running more removal.

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Originally Posted by Endril

@Muradin - I like that board, except that pyrokinesis is strong against every deck sharpshooter is, in addition to zoo. For me, it usually hits 2 creatures, which I think is worth it. I'm really concerned because zoo is our worst match up (other than a few random rogue decks or belcher), so I have to have something to answer it. Does monored perform better against zoo than red/black? I've only tested that matchup once, and zoo smoked me. The chieftains didn't stay on the table, and they wouldn't have been enough to stop tarmogoyfs anyway. I'm guessing monored tries to outrace them with chieftain and war marshal, but I still feel more comfortable splashing black and running more removal.

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My experience with mono red is that you do not try to outrace Zoo. You want to hold out till midgame, blocking some, removing some (blocking and cycling for damage works). And then swarm them. War Marshal really helps in the match up since Zoo wants do do damage with creatures. So they either have to burn away marshal or attack through it. So it either costs them a lot of recources or a lot of less damage.

I never tried running Blood Moon though. I think it might help even more especially when on the play. If you combine it with Rishadan Port it should work. Port allows you to keep them off one color first and mana in general, so you wont get beat up quickly. Then Blood Moon them.

In the worst case they were able to get both a plains and a forest in play for Pridemage. For them to get rid of Blood Moon costs them a full turn, playing and activating pridemage. Besides if they have to fetch basics it slows them down considerably and they also cant really afford to fetch non-basics because of Wasteland. And there's vial too as a target. So if they get rid of your blood moon you still have vial to keep up.

And the good thing is also that they might not expect Blood moon game 2 anyway. And zoo is tight on mana, I dont think they are quick to trow away a good hand with a fetch and a non-basic ( I never did as far as I can remember). That's an opportunity for us as well.

You know, in my last MU vs zoo I remember thinking blood moon would be brutal because they have to have plains and forest already in play before it hits, or they won't likely have white or green for pretty much the rest of the game since they only run 1 of each. But most zoo players search for basics against you anyway because of wasteland, so I don't think it would shut them down. I still think removal is a better answer to zoo. Do you really feel goblins can hold out against zoo? Ever since they've started running sylvan library, I've felt like I need to get control of the board as soon as I can because if I just stay on the ropes, they'll hit card advantage on me.

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Originally Posted by Endril

You know, in my last MU vs zoo I remember thinking blood moon would be brutal because they have to have plains and forest already in play before it hits, or they won't likely have white or green for pretty much the rest of the game since they only run 1 of each. But most zoo players search for basics against you anyway because of wasteland, so I don't think it would shut them down. I still think removal is a better answer to zoo. Do you really feel goblins can hold out against zoo? Ever since they've started running sylvan library, I've felt like I need to get control of the board as soon as I can because if I just stay on the ropes, they'll hit card advantage on me.

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I havent come across zoo in a tournament setting but I have tested the matchup a bit and I have played a lot of Zoo myself and I know fetching basics slows the deck down. Against zoo it always either:

They fetch duals and you waste them.
or
They fetch basics and you port them.

You have removal in the form of Gempalm and Kynesis. Anyway I would have Kinesis in my sb. Im not quick to put in Lieges and sharpshooter. And I probably wouldn't put in stuff vs Storm Combo.

Sylvan Library is annoying but their card advantage costs them life, ours (ringleaer) doesn't. If you were able to keep them off bay (= not too low on life) their card advantage wouldn't help them that much. They cant afford to attack you all out because one piledriver could kill them in one attack. I consider Knight of the Reliquary the worst Zoo has to offer. I really think its possible to win from zoo but its still gonna be a hard matchup.

Goblins has the luxury of being able to quickly become a control deck with features like waste, port, tutorable removal, and card advantage. Against decks like zoo and merfolk, goblins can win by playing the control game. In my experience, the only time that I really NEED a sideboard is against eplague and storm.

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Originally Posted by Malchar

Goblins has the luxury of being able to quickly become a control deck with features like waste, port, tutorable removal, and card advantage. Against decks like zoo and merfolk, goblins can win by playing the control game. In my experience, the only time that I really NEED a sideboard is against eplague and storm.

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I wouldnt agree on that. Bant (in all forms) is 50/50 and woth Sideboard options like Perish and REB its much easier to win.

Besides:
I can come up with some experience on Blood Moon! I own a Goblin and Zoo deck myself, so I tested a lot with friends.

I run RB and my personal conclusion about Blood Moon is, that its useless against Zoo.
As you said: they fetch on basics cause they dont wanna get wasted. With 8-10 Fetches in deck it isnt much of a problem to play around Blood Moon. Plus: your probably putting down Blood Moon in T3. That costs you a hole turn and doesnt even change the situation on board a bit. If they know what they are doing they try to put creatures first in T1-3, so they are most likely to have more burn than creature in hand when you play Blood Moon.
If you run Port + Wastes Blood Moon shuts down both parts of your mana-denial. I'd rather do some denial-action against their otherwise weak manabase than leaving them with only their most important color.

Well I have to admit that my testing was not as representative as it could be, cause not all my friends are killer Zoo-players, but at least could most of them handle Blood Moon in g3.

I'd rather run removal in board and try to beat zoo in mid- or even late game by just swarming them.

I actually have a pretty good matchup against zoo most of the time but that's because I'm running maindeck 3x Mogg War Marshal and 4x Gempalm Incinerators. With War Marshal, I can buy a lot of the time in the beginning and it helps me get to the late game. Also, with 3 Marshals, my Gempalms are hard removals that cantrip.

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Originally Posted by lotriderm

I actually have a pretty good matchup against zoo most of the time but that's because I'm running maindeck 3x Mogg War Marshal and 4x Gempalm Incinerators. With War Marshal, I can buy a lot of the time in the beginning and it helps me get to the late game. Also, with 3 Marshals, my Gempalms are hard removals that cantrip.

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Is your list mono-red or RB?

While we're at it, would you like to share your list?

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Originally Posted by lotriderm

I actually have a pretty good matchup against zoo most of the time but that's because I'm running maindeck 3x Mogg War Marshal and 4x Gempalm Incinerators. With War Marshal, I can buy a lot of the time in the beginning and it helps me get to the late game. Also, with 3 Marshals, my Gempalms are hard removals that cantrip.

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Thats my experience too (with monoR):

This is what I ran when playing MonoR

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

//Artifacts
4 AEther Vial

//Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
16 Mountain

@Nelis - I couldn't run a deck with less than 4 warchiefs, but that's the most solid mana base I've seen for goblins.

@Topic - My maindeck answer to zoo is my removal. I have 2 scg, 1 stingscourger, 1 sharpshooter, 3 lightning bolt, 3 gempalm, and 4 weirding. Then I have 3 pyrokinesis and 2 perish in the board. Sharpshooter has won me games, so I at least want it in the board. Stingscourger I'm still divided on, but I hear more people telling me to keep it in than take it out and I see the wisdom in it. I've been told to remove lightning bolts, but it's been a better fit for my MU's than the cards I would run it its place. Any more thoughts on those choices? I'm specifically wondering if it's worth taking out removal to run war marshal. I haven't considered it much before now because it doesn't actually take creatures off the board and there's other MU's where removal seems more important.