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One should mention that Zoo was already pretty much dead around ~GP Amsterdam 2011 because Maverick had completly taken over and Zoo really couldn't beat it. It's best matchup, Merfolk, also vanished at around the same time because it was also just not cutting it vs Maverick.
Which was right before Delver, Griselbrand, Terminus and shit were even printed and Batterskull was a tech. Ergo, blaming Terminus and Co. for Zoo, Meerfolks, etc. demise is wrongQuote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Batterskull was already around and surely contributed a lot to Maverick's success. But yeah, we're not seeing Zoo come back, that ship as sailed. Merfolk is surprising enough somewhat ok right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Given that I have looked up the results of that GP to verify that SFM was a two-off in Maverick to grab a Jitte or Sword, I have not seen a Batterskull in any of those lists. I can imagine the recent resurgence of Meerfolk is plain because of TNN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
And Islandwalk?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Zoo is as much surprising ok as Merfolk is right now. Goblins is the same. So is Suicide Black and just about every other list that was once good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
The argument isn't about surprising ok, because anybody who has dusted off a 4 year old list and 4-0'd at an LGS weekly knows that on any given day a former DTB or nearly so can still 4-0 with the right matchups and draws.
The argument is about the single mechanism that is increasingly dominating the Legacy scene, that mechanism being using blue cantrips to sort out whatever pile you put together and make it better. Even the free counters aren't as warping on the meta as the fact that 8 to 12 high quality cantrips will find you just about anything you need when you need it and as the power of the things you are searching for expands so does the value of the cantrips.
Legacy is headed straight to Vintage land at this point. It's going to be about a half dozen core cards that are mostly played in sets, 4 to 6 of the core in each list depending on what it's trying to do, all searching for or protecting the most powerful, hard to interact with win-cons available.
Legacy is going to be worse than Vintage in the end except for the T1/T2 blowouts that the fast mana can create. That's because there are no restricted cards in Legacy and WotC will not make sensible ban decisions at this point to stop the devolution of the format into one shell powering several overwhelming strategies. So Brainstorm and Force of Will will be around as a 4-of in 80% of all lists in a few years and Ponder and Gitaxian Probe will be 4-of's in 50% of the lists, although not appearing together all the time and Delver of Secrets or [insert next broken win-con here] will each be in 30% of all lists although not appearing together often or at all and so-on and so-forth.
The thing that made Legacy appealing was that you could play with most of your cards and there was an explicit understanding that if the format devolved into just a few contending lists at any point that WotC was going to ban something to break that up and again make many of your cards playable.
That understanding has broken down now under two emerging trends.
First, WotC is doing silly things in the card pool, producing cards that really should not see the light of day given what we know about Magic after 20 years. This has cyclically moved Legacy towards a best cards list with a dominant set of cards that are appearing in too many lists and stifling innovation. The fact that the cards are often blue or easily splashed with blue is an aggravating factor also given what we know about Magic after 20 years.
Second, WotC has backed away from banning anything in Legacy after the dubious ban of Survival of the Fittest in late 2010. This has resulted in a Legacy meta that is now drawing from a very limited selection of power cards in order to create the best lists. There are 6 lists in the current DTB section of the source and all variants of 5 of them play 4 Brainstorm and 4 Force of Will. Most variants of 5 of them also include 4 Ponder.
This is the problem in a nutshell.
There are three ways WotC can go on the issue.
First, they could choose to do what they've done consistently for 4 plus years now and do nothing. This would be an admission on their part that Legacy is essentially a declining format that will receive no further moderation from them and will likely see dwindling attendance until it eventually becomes a small niche format like Vintage.
Second, they could choose to make some small changes to the structure that do not involve interacting directly with the primary problem of aggregate best cards lists. This would involve them banning a couple of particularly noxious win-cons that are both highly played and highly unpopular in the player base. Delver of Secrets would clearly be one of these and the other might well be Show and Tell. These bans would solve very little in the overall meta other than to essentially destroy two archetypes that people have trouble interacting with and thus hate on an epic scale.
Third, they could choose to ban several cards that enable lists to consistently find the numerous powerful cards available in the Legacy card pool at this point. Brainstorm and Ponder are the obvious choices. They could choose instead to ban Brainstorm and Force of Will to see if that shook up the blue shell enough to make it no longer the only good choice for competitive players. This type of approach would be better than a noxious win-cons approach because the sad fact at this late date is that there are many, many noxious win-cons available in the Legacy card pool. The ones that are annoying us right now are just the best of those, others will quickly take their place in the uber-consistency shell if the current noxious wins are removed.
My bet is on option one, which is unfortunate but clearly suggested by the recent approach to Legacy.
Sure. I'd sign that.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
To be fair with the Duals and Fetches, anything with less than 3 colored mana symbols in its cost is easily splashed by any other color.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-GP-New-JerseyQuote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
I feel like there are people making it work. There can't be very many people trying to run Zoo, so going 7-2 with it means it overperformed; I.E. it's not that bad and it's not a local.
Right, but how many blue cards are splashed for anything? How often do you see a blue card in a list in which the majority of non-lands are not blue?Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmcc13
People don't splash blue for counters, although there's no reason they couldn't with many counters that do significant things for just :u:. People don't even splash blue for just Brainstorm and Ponder. ANT has enough blue in it that it could play 4 Force of Will if that worked.
Gibbon It to the Format was the reason I made my post in response to the notion that Merfolk was still viable.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
I do get how they work; it's just:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
-Reanimator would survive just fine with Loot effects. It already uses them and AFAICT, prefers them in any kind of non-garbage hand.
-SneakShow doesn't have to survive; it's combo halves are in other decks that work. It's just the optimal one at the moment. it doesn't matter if it dies because sneak attack lists exist outside of it, as do S&T lists. It's also dubious that it'd die when it can readily adopt Looting and it's threats go back into the library anyway.
-High Tide would adopt a different cantrip. It is not central to it's strategy..
-Bomberman may run blue, but the lists on the forum don't run Brainstorm. #getgood
-Food Chain is questionable, but I can't see why it wouldn't adopt. I've run many casual combo decks that work; and Aggro/Combo is the easiest to get moving since (just like NO RUG or Maverick Depths) they beat you down and sometimes accidentally just win. I do realize NO RUG ran BS to shuffle in Prog, but a looting effect would do the same thing. For example, Thopter-Sword combos are often a 3x2 side strategy rather than a 4x4 strategy the deck is devoted to.
-Storm, so long as it's running PiF/IGG, would survive fine on Looting effects
I don't understand why you post here relying completely on ad hominim and exaggeration. The above decks barely have to change to survive. They do become worst, but their worst matchups also become worse. Do you really think storm would die out just because it uses Igg/PiF loops next to Looting effects instead? The last few storm matches I had they used the grave to go off anyway (including TES.)
I don't get why you think combo would die when so many combo decks don't rely on brainstorm at the moment. Elves, Dredge, Bomberman, Painter, Rip-Helm decks (I've seen a DGA Rip Helm deck), Oops, etc. The diversity of combo is doing just fine. The diversity of creature strategies is hindered because of Miracles and Delver. There's no way you can argue that isn't the case.
Asides:
*I don't think Entreat would be bad without BS. It's mediocre to hardcast, but Miracles (even without Terminus) would have no issue Bolt/Plowing every dude until they setup the win, much as they do now; but they'd have a soft-spot for things like D&T where it's hard to 1-for-1 a deck with 26 dudes and occasional protection, (even with 4 Bolt/Plow/Snap.) I think that entreating for 2 (which you can do at 7 mana) is completely viable in a deck that runs you out of threats and slows the game down so much.
*"Fair" has always been used for creature heavy non-combo strategies. If you have a problem with the term, go away. If you're insulted by your deck being called unfair, laugh like a troll and beat the guy anyway. I don't see why a combo player gets to whine that a tongue-in-cheek reference to bad players whining exists. If anything you should find the term endearing/funny.
*It's worth noting that combo decks that could adopt looting effects would (except storm) also be able to more readily adopt Cruise to make up for the CD. Probe + Looting + Fetchland already brings Cruise to a 3-mana spell. This is hardly an idealized opener for such a deck; it's simply a little less sturdy than BS.
*I do understand how BS works; just because I normally play junk doesn't mean I can't/don't run blue. Almost every combo I've done in casual has had Faithless Looting for the exact same reasons Legacy combo runs BS. I've built dozens of combo decks EDIT: and I regularly practice against Reanimator, Storm, S&T, and Dredge.
In my ideal world, they would unban Frenzied Search if they banned BS; which would assist combo anyway while being mediocre for non-combo.
Um, theres a reason looting effects aren't played unless you specifically want something in the bin. Combo decks (sans reanimator) really don't want a card disadvantage filter.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
Yes, treat me like an idiot as if I don't get it. I know they aren't played and it's because there's a near-strictly-better card => brainstorm. There wouldn't be a ban-brainstorm discussion had Faithless looting been "Draw 3, discard 2" or even "Draw 2, discard 1"; ad least I don't think the debate would be as hot.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
The only other cards that do this in the game are looting effects or exceptionally bad cards. Decks that can utilize looting (Reanimator, Storm) would be fine with looting in BS's place assuming the decks were modfied a bit. Other decks would either:
-Not do it
-Run cruise/DTT
Besides, combo can get by with CD*; they aren't trading cards with you 1-for-1 or anything; they're searching for pieces. CD doesn't matter if you just win. The only decks I suggested Looting for, you'll note, make use of the grave. I do think, however, Sneakshow's current iteration could also do it.
*Almost every card in Storm is a CD card. S&T's entire game plan is CD. Reanimator's entire game plan is CD.
They will be worse decks; but relative to the field (which would also have been nerfed) they will be fine.
you would be surprised. It is not common, but it is doable. though most people are either not splashing for blue because they can not afford the duals or the speed loss, or they go full blue because they want FoW+Daze to protect against fast combo decks (like Belcher) that can kill them before they have time to build resources. The fear of these glass cannons is probably a major part of the #'s for FoW+Daze, which pad the #'s of BS as well. On Modo something like 6.88 % of decks run BS but not FoW, the difference is something like 4.8% on MTGTop8.comQuote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
ANT has 16 or less blue cards in its main deck but Blue is its secondary color, not a splash. But it does run more black cards then blue cards. It is also a stratagey that relies on Cantrips to function properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
If you only look at the well known and established decks, you will only see blue heavy decks, or non-blue decks. But that does not mean that there is no room to brew (and the format, ok competitive Magic, needs less followers who only copy decks and more innovators greating new designs), and every deck that realizes the game can go long needs to consider adding BS and Ponder. Elves does not need it, the duals do not work well with Price so Burn says no, Goblins already has Matron and ringleader for the same effect. I like MUD, my present build is completely colorless But I have been considering trying adding Blue for Transmute Artifact, and maybe BS + Ponder, would it be good? No idea but it might be worth tinkering with.
So, with politeness, you respond, "Well, I don't really want to address the question as asked, so let's theory craft a three part (& change) answer." Thus, the argument returns back to banning brainstorm. I fully agree with a.), b.) & c.) devolves into Obligatory shitty card creation thread. A later thought is a distractionary topic as no one has recently called for the banning of Force of Will or Sneak Attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by LOLWut
That poll from five years ago should be archived, with a new poll put in it's place. Building Olympic villages is a good thing right before and during the games, but are often horrendous ideas well after the games conclude; that is to say, timeliness matters, and observance of a vacuumed opinion does not always provide poignant insight.
However it's not doable at the tournament competitive level or we'd see more lists splashing blue just for Brainstorm or Brainstorm + Ponder. This doesn't happen now.Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmcc13
People do splash Stoneforge Mystic and Swords to Plowshares into blue lists but they don't splash Brainstorm and Ponder into white lists that feature Stoneforge Mystic and Swords to Plowshares.
People do splash Lightning Bolt and Young Pyromancer (was Grim Lavamancer at one point) into blue lists but they don't splash Brainstorm and Ponder into red lists running Lightning Bolt and Young Pyromancer.
People do splash Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose (well, you get the idea) into blue lists but they don't splash Brainstorm and Ponder into green lists running Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose.
People do splash Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant into blue lists but nobody splashes Brainstorm and Ponder into black lists.
The point is that Legacy has become a blue format that aggregates the best cards in the other colors with the blue cantrip shell because you can't not do that and have the best chance to win. If the cantrip shell was weakened there is nothing that is currently playable that would not still be playable, if in a slightly changed form in many cases. If the cantrip shell was weakened many things that are not currently optimal would become playable again because although they're fine concepts and have access to real power cards they cannot compete with the consistency of the current blue shell.
That's what WotC should be looking to do. Every powerful blue spell that is printed at this point shunts more non-blue lists out of the competition because the shell is already overwhelmingly dominant against all but a handful of other card selection and advantage strategies. WotC should weaken the blue shell to allow other lists into the competition on a more even footing.
I'm not arguing on this point. However ANT's consistency at finding it's wins early shoves dozens of other archetypes off of the top tables. It does this to almost all non-blue shell lists. Not because those lists aren't playing Force of Will but because they can't find the things they need to compete with ANT quickly enough to make a difference. ANT on the other hand has no problem at all finding a turn 2 to 4 win with the blue shell. It does this extremely consistently.Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmcc13
Weaken the shell and more archetypes can compete with ANT because they have the time they need to find answers. Because ANT doesn't have a locked win state against them due to it's ability to consistently find it's win by turn 4.
There's only so much you can do in design when you're lacking the tools that a significant portion of the competition is using and those tools influence the most important elements of the game which are card selection and advantage. That's why in the absence of non-blue consistency tools that can be used immediately the blue shell will continue to be the better option.Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmcc13
Blah blah blah. The banning of Brainstorm has been discussed ad nauseam. They won't ban it, and I'm happy they won't. People will have to continue to accept metagames where BS is in >50% of the decks. Hurrah.
For my own personal benefit I'd still like to see Frantic Search unbanned. Dig through Time and Search? Now that sounds like a deck.
Have you played Team America pre-Treasure Cruise or Shardless BUG ever? Those are pretty clearly BG decks that splash Blue for counters and library manipulation; Shardless in particular frequently has to leave Visions in even when it's suboptimal because it needs Blue cards to support Force of Will.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Of all the combo decks keeping things out of the top tables, ANT is the least culpable. It's vulnerable to broad-based disruption like Sphere of Resistance and Thalia in addition to countermagic, unlike Sneak and Show or Reanimator that can go off by casting a single spell. If you're trying to play Legacy competitively, turn 4 is pretty late to have interaction against any opponent unless you're planning to win on turn 5. Nonblue decks can achive this interaction either through redundancy (like D&T) or their own draw or library manipulation.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
I don't think we can asume that card selection which comes with card-disadvantage will ever find a place in those combo lists (Burning Reanimator aside) simply because the acceptable Looting-effects are limited to Careful Study & Faithless Looting and that the whole approach streamlines Storm and stuff into "graveyard-shenanigans" which is very one-dimensional to get hated out. You turn these decks into one-trick-pony's like Belcher except that these decks had their justification in the metagame, because they are NOT that easy to control. Storm has AN + PIF + spellchain, Reanimator the graveyard-Path + S&T. Moving to Looting-effects is harming their non-graveyard-traits and if you are left with a one-trick-pony in either case, there is no point, why you wouldn't choose Belcher-like decks instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
That said, be asured that Storm would simply move to Preordain/Ponder/SDT post Brainstorm and streamline into Cabal Ritual builds to remain it's flexibility.
That, or go for a Thought Scour/Mental Note into DTT route.
I think that the answer will be"there's no trouble with maindecking REBs, it's similar to maindecking Swords to Plows" to which some different user will answer "but we're not talking about efficient answers to efficient threats, we're talking about the fact that Brainstorm is too powerful for Legacy" which will be answered by "it's not too powerful, as it makes only 70% of metagame and BS deck make 70 % of top8, so the meta is balanced" to which the answer will be heard that sounds like "there are no BS decks, you cannot mix stomr, miracles and tempo into one bracket" to which someone responds with "this is irrelevant, as long as the blue cantrip based decks play the similar and thus bring the ever the same boring repetetive experience" which will be answered by "Brainstrom allows more distinct archetypes than it suppresses and thus it in fact increases strategical diversity" to whom someone answers that "dude, talk more about strategical diverstiy, when was the last time we've seen Zoo/Mav/Loam in top8?" that provokes a response "lol, u mad bro, pet dek viable no more?" which will be answered by thunder of hooves.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Maybe you mean SnT/Sneak/Reanimator? Last time I checked these 3 are in the top 10 Decks to Beat while ANT is somewhere in the top 20. Reanimator is the most consistent/redundant combo deck. You can basically just draw + discard and all you need is a reanimate. Not to mention the deck is fully equipped with free counterspells. ANT is more fragile as it needs to chain spells to win and this makes ANT more susceptible to hate bears/taxing effects and even counterbalance. ANT didn't have an Oops I Win! card which is Show and Tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
How much important is storms virtual CA made by zero creatures? While not every deck packs an amout of removal similar to Pox, most of the decs still got a card or two that might be a liability once they need to answer/prevent the game winning AdN or PiF.Quote:
Originally Posted by death
Except for combo, no decks packs less than 4 removal (often times many more) and quite some other tools to win in red zone (say Jitte or w/e). These are dead draws against storm combo, while they might do something against Reanimator/SnT.
Is the virtual CA important? I guess... not really, but maybe I'm wrong. Thinking of the usual dudes that jump of the grave/hand (Emrakul, Griselbrand, what else?), removal doesnt really matter, right?
Alrights many more removal spells and tools which are dead against storm combo. Swords, Bolt, A. Decay? You can use plow on your creature much like Healing Salve and gain life. You use bolt on the storm player to decrease his/her Ad Nauseam draws and Abrupt Decay can target artifact sources. Have you StP'd Griselbrand or Iona lately and did they die? Emrakul has protection from spells so he's excused.
I'm not hating on Show and Tell and Reanimator. I have those decks built and I have 8 japanese foil Griselbrands. My ANT deck isn't pimped out, it still looks the same way since 2009. I'm just pointing things out.
every deck has it's weakness, the same Zoo (yeah Zoo because there is no competitive deck that routinelly loses to Ant due to 0 interaction) loses to Ant T3 most time not having a any counterspells, Ant loses to Thalia T2 most time not having a any removal spell, Belcher vs. Miracles, Miracles vs. 12post, Lands vs. Zoo ... I see nothing wrong here, you have Sb to interact and can hate out every deck if you really want to, but if you need to balance out all relevant MU you'll always have good and bad MUs OMG just accept it... why you people always want a super deck (just play edh ;)... in fact non-U vs. combo interaction has vastly improved latest years in ANT case resulting into very stupid and unfunny roulette gameplayQuote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
btw there are NO answers to Ant only a threat for it, despite the name it's not a creature
//
all the same again, just know your stuff, play well and stop crying
People don't want the best deck. They don't want to play against ever the same cards, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
I don't think cry, so I cannot stop crying. What I stopped, though, is playing MtG at tournaments ever since the Legacy's pool narrowed to roughly 10-20 playsets of cards, generic blue rare lands excluding.
Time to say goodbye.
I think that in my post-MKM world, there's hardly anything that Source may offer to me, and what I may offer in return. Expect to see me less and less, esp. now when my "collection" shrank to less than 300 cards.
Please, don't be sad that I'm leaving. Everything nice has come to an end. And I swear that time from time I may show up the Can Thrash thread and maybe bring some enlightened analysis on how things go in Terrageddon department.
Otoh, it's pretty understandable that the neverending stream of insane blue prints has a demoralzing effect on anybody who doesn't want to play with/against blue only. Not that the color identity matters, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
I cannot comment on this, I lack tools to distinguish quality posts from the crappy ones. Also, I realized I don't really care anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
But then everybody is cornered somehow. You also sold Lands stuff and Painter stuff and who knows what else. It's not like you realistically can have everything and there's not even any reason to do so, because you got one head and two hands only and cannot play more than one deck at a particular moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
The last straw was SotF ban, although I realized that only after a years. The message that WotC gives is pretty clear: "we don't want non-blue to have similarly powerful strategies like blue" and I once again guess that this might be a bit too demoralizing for anyone trying to do anything remotely interesting/viable in non-blue colors. It's not like it's impossible (see all the GB and RG Dark Depths decks, or DnT or younamethedeck), but it' still pretty obvious that the gap between blue and the rest will only increase, as the WotC cannot for the lives of them come with anything else than cheap blue draw and manipulation, while they desperately need good creatures to make blue not suck in limited. Hence what we see. Leave the "something something learn to metagame, something something brew moar" comment right here.
This turned Legacy (in roughly a past year or two) into a pathetic format (and yeah, I really don't give fuck about 40 000 ppl at GP, none of them increased MY FUN even a bit), a format I don't really enjoy anymore. Part of what made it appealing was the ability to play literally anything and still have a chance for 2-2, but these times are long gone; trigger of the "underdeveloped metagame" jazz in 5, 4, 3...
You know... I played 5CG for Top8 finish at fifty+ men tourney; Five Fucking Colour Green, the deck with River Boas, Maros, Incinerates, WOrbs, Quirion Rangers and crapload of bad Mirage-block lands.
I played UGw Thresh with three Mystic Enforcers and won the mirror cause I had one more bigass badass Enforcer than the Budějovice-based guy.
I played Faerie Stompy and won against Storm after mulling to four.
I played Dredge through horrid heaps of Crypts.
I 6:0ed Najáda's opening tourney with ANT.
I'm fed up. I won enough.
The losses also count. There are only so many defeats a man can stand, and I simply cannot stand the losses anymore (neither I can stand the wins, though).
The nowadays Legacy is unbearable, and the matches are extremely mechanic and anticlimactic. Every time I tap the Delver for the last time, or become stopped by CB/top, or get eaten by [insert dude] or Bolt someone's face, I ask myself "is this what you want from life?"
So forgive me if I find it irritating that some random dickhead tells me over the web what should I do with my life so that I'm more succesfull in a futile activity with children's pictorial game. Moreover I cannot stand the fucking jargon of "pretty well positioned" and "that's not where you wanna be", the OCD atmosphere of usual local gaming club - btw anyone who's honestly asking why MtG isn't spectators' sport should watch a game of Magic with all the shuffles and such... if at least the dudes took a rabbit out of an opera hat -, and due to the years I spent next to junkies, I simply cannot stand 90 % of what forms a usual MtG community, MtG player, MtG evening.
So I cornered myself? And what? I realized that I'm too old for this, so I kept the one deck I may grasp with my two hands, in case I'd ever return to the game - which, seeing the WotC's (not exactly recent) obsession is pretty unlikely. Moreover, if I'd wanted to play Vintage-like format, I could have played the very Vintage for years, right? There's no reason to bother myself with Vintage-lite that Legacy slowly turns into, as it's becoming a format based around several central strategies supported/fed by a small subset of cards.
That process of cornering myself was pretty relieving. For the last years I was simply unable to make anything reasonable with my stuff, and most of the time I was overwhelmed by the possibilities. Combine that with all of the above aspects and you might picture me sitting with my pile of cardboard heroin, unable to do anything with that and saying to myself "fuck that, I'll just play Thresh" each Thursday after Thursday after Thursday.
Enter chase rares and rare's chases, etc., all that stuff. That's not where I wanna be. That's not how I'm going to position myself.
I work for roughly 230 hours a months and I'm trying my best to raise three children and make my wife's life easier, my grandparents are sick, poor and lonely, especially considering that my father's mum lives afield and alone for years, and my mother's dad just became a widower, as grandma passed away last week; my parents... well, I think you already heard at least about my father, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
I still got my one deck left and then an unsorted heap of crap I'm too busy to do something about. Maybe I'll brew with the pile, this might be a good idea. Right after I finish another batch of night-shift overtimes.
/off fucking topic
That has always been the case since thedojo days. People want to play the winningest deck. The meta changes everytime and of course you have to adapt. You can either copy the list that won an SCG open or improvise and think outside the box.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
My favorite deck is BUG control, very powerful. It gets hosed by Blood Moon and Choke and I scoop everytime I can't answer it. This is just an example of how players can adapt. But most would rather copy the next big thing. Brainstorm, Delver, TNN and Miracle decks are strong but not the end of the world strong.
So, turning every combo deck into a graveyard dependent looting deck is your anticipated solution to banning brainstorm? Seems like a great idea!!Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
Back on topic, please. Thanks. -zilla
Is high tide the deck that would most likely abuse mind's desire, or do you think such an unbanning would spawn a new storm deck?
I would think any storm deck would abuse Mind's Desire. I played around with TPS in MTGO Vintage and it is absolutely bonkers it creates so much extra gas to kill someone with.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogitoergosum
It would spawn a new Storm deck, though it would be very similar. Ad Nauseam does not work with desire, and almost all the current storm decks run it. Once they take out Ad Nauseam for desire then the low CC requirement on the deck gets thrown out, and it gets re-built with 4 desires in mind needing less cantrips and more gas/business spells. This might make the deck faster or slower, but it definitely increases redundancy making it much more consistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuke is Good
though double blue is an awkward mana requirement, you could just play TES with Desire in the sb as a Wish target. something like ANT could just run X number of Desires, since they have basics, instead of Ad Nauseam. I don't think any of these decks would necessarily be new, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmcc13
High Tide & ritual decks can play the card, I assume it is faster and more consistent going the ritual route. Mind's Desire into Mind's Desire is the reason why it would spawn a new deck and probably the reason it will never be unbanned, unless it gets errata'd. WotC just placed a nail on the coffin when they printed Dig Through Time.
I know mind into mind is the most broken reason, but the high mana cost makes me think it might be unbannable. Seems like a slower but maybe more consistent combo engine than in ANT currently. I could be wrong but seems like TES wouldn't want it, they are too fast. I guess it would be just giving blue another toy, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by death
thisQuote:
Originally Posted by death
5 is not high in the right deckQuote:
Originally Posted by cogitoergosum
More U = evil demagogy?Quote:
Originally Posted by cogitoergosum
People say that, but let's say you're going off with a Mind's Desire deck. How much storm do you need in order to win?Quote:
Originally Posted by death
The cmc is 6, 4UU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
Edit: This is a crazy idea, maybe a blue post deck that desires into Eldrazi?
What about adding it to a DD shell? I'm not very familiar with the deck, but it seems like resolving DD after desire would pretty much be auto win.
depends on your decks # of kill conditions, and the # of cards left in the deck and, but properly built 5-6 should be enough to either hit desire#2 or a kill card most of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
If you have gone through 14 cards (not that hard on turn 3 with fetches and cantrips), have 3 desires and 3 cards that can kill your opponent (say 2 tendrils and an Emrakul, because desiring out an eldrazi would be fun) then with a storm count of 5 you should have just over a 50% chance of hitting something to keep going, and that is not counting hitting more gas with cantrips/a tutor to go off again that way.