Also, now goblins already have enough good creatures in the 2cc slot.
And I don't see what kind of role Ember Hauler would be playing in the deck.
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Also, now goblins already have enough good creatures in the 2cc slot.
And I don't see what kind of role Ember Hauler would be playing in the deck.
Assuming this guy costs 1R, he's fringe playable. He can shoot utility creatures, but more importantly he can shoot players over a Moat, and is Swords-proof. That being said, Gempalm Incinerator is just better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
The reason that everyone is obsessed with beating zoo is because zoo is the deck that everyone wishes goblins was. Super powerful creatures for cheap, a reasonable amount of versatility, and a burn finisher. Since it's so consistent, it has reasonable matchups against combo, and you don't feel bad sideboarding in a ton of cards that aren't goblins so that you can properly deal with the meta.
After playing the 2 decks I was arguing about back and forth, Elfball (elven combo) and vial gobbies. . .I think I'm going to build this deck over elfball as its just too inconsistant.
Here is the decklist I have right now
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin King
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Pyromancer
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Stingscourger
1 Warren Instigator
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
Creatures [31]
4 AEther Vial
3 Warren Weirding
Spells [7]
4 Auntie's Hovel
1 Graven Cairns
13 Mountain
3 Sulfurous Springs
1 Swamp
Lands [22]
SIDEBOARD
1 Boartusk Liege
3 Perish
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=608416
The only tenative changes I have planned are 4 duals and fetches during tourneys if I can snag them from my friends. . .if I get them I'll
-4 Aunties Hovel
+4 Badlands
-1 Graven Cairns
-3 Sulfurous Springs
+4 Bloodstained Mire
Anything else you guys would recommend?
Edit - Added a King and Chieftain, removed 2 Gempalms. . .
I would recommend playing less bad goblins. No King, No Crafter, No Kiki, No Pyromancer, and no Wort. Then replace them with a Siege-Gang, a Gempalm, 2 Instigators, and a 4th Weirding. You'll be amazed at how much better your deck runs.
Crafter wasn't all that thrilling to me until my friend pointed this out about Crafter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Play Crafter, champion a ringleader or a matron. If you have a warchief out, tap crafter and nuke itself.
Ringleader, matron, whatever go back into play and you can sort through the top four, find a card etc etc blahblah.
That isn't useful? Or just too situational?
About Pyromancer, wasn't that thrilled with it I'll be honest.
Wort I kind of like, but I could see removing for another Instigator.
Kiki also had some nice deals with clone a piledriver for another wtfpwn etc but I will keep in mind.
I'm going to go
-1 Pyro
-1 Wort
+1 Instigator
+1 Weirding
for now, but since I'm just using proxies currently I'll play around with removing
-1 Crafter
-1 Kiki
+1 Siege
+1 Gempalm
It is too situational. It oonly really shines against Merfolk, but the deal is, it does not complement the deck with anything it don't have already. It does not make it more consistent, faster... It can also be dead if 0 goblins in play, or 2 for 1ed if you play with only 1 goblin in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuad
I have played with it MD, and he should be considered. The same is not true about King, Kiki or Pyromancer. Those should definitely be replaced.
Edit: Also, something I learned: Goblin toolbox (lots of 1-offs) is bad. Don't do it. I have only 2 goblins that are 1-offs in my list (Earwig Squad and Stingscourer), since they are really stealer is some MU's but really lackluster in others, so you don't want to see many of those.
So king is out, but chieftain is good? They are essentially the same card. . .?
So with the advice in the past 2 posts, here is my edited list.
MAIN DECK
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
1 Earwig Squad
2 Warren Instigator
Creatures [30]
4 AEther Vial
4 Warren Weirding
Spells [8]
4 Auntie's Hovel
1 Graven Cairns
13 Mountain
3 Sulfurous Springs
1 Swamp
Lands [22]
SIDEBOARD
1 Boartusk Liege
3 Perish
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
Sideboard [15]
The one other thing I'm still worried about is that Boartusk Liege. My friend agreed with the rest of my SB to suit our metagame (and the game in general) but that one just doesn't seem to fit. . .
And also talking to him it looks like I will be able to snag 4 Badlands and 4 Bloodstained Mires for tournement play so that will help alot
Edit - Looking at Earwig Squad. . .I really like it. . .would playing 1 of's Earwig and Stingscourger like ScatManX be a bad idea? Or a pretty viable plan?
No offense but you really should read some of the last 5 pages or so.. at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuad
Chieftain, in contrast to king, gives haste, most important stuff your lords can do and also only pushes YOUR goblins.
Boartusk liege is there just in case there is a 2nd engineered plague dropped. It will survive 2 and will enable your chieftains to stick again, therefore you are back in business from there on.
The 1of on Scourger and Earwig: Earwig is good vs some decks, like mentioned before. For example vs combo and decks with random jitte or progenitus. You usually don't wont to see him besides those matchups, therefore max 2 MD.
Scourger as a 1of isn't fixed like that. Scourger is another removal, you have 4 weirding, 2 Incinerator and 1 stingscourger.
Each of the removal pieces is better in a specific situation. Stingscourger for example if you have vial @2 and the enemy has more than one creature with you not having enough goblins to incinerate the iona. There are lists who play more scourgers, less weirdings and so on. This is personal choice.
Regarding the sideboard: especially on the combo hate there was a lot of discussion on the last 2 pages. From my point of view your sideboard looks fine.
I personally play something very similiar but with REBs, anarchy and bloodmoon instead of the combo hate and boartusk. Perish is something like the most boarded card by me.
I've been meaning to read the thread, but everytime I get a few minutes to sit and start reading something comes up, so as I run around I think of questions and ask them before starting to read, so sorry I'm sure this same subject has been argued over the past 119 pages. . .but I don't plan on arguing. . .especially since your logic is perfectly sound and things I didn't catch.
Thanks for all the info, I think I'm going to stick with the build I posted up above in
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post462504
Thanks again <3
I just felt like sharing information some of you may find useful. I've compiled a cumulative list showing what % of the field was taken up by each deck in the last 7 SCG opens. I've also included goblins wins and losses (and %) for some decks in these tournaments. All of this information can be pulled from spreadsheets shared by Jared Sylva (sp?) in his TMI articles.
Common deck archetypes, 12/09 through 6/10:
1) Merfolk (10.7%)
2) Countertop (8.9%)
3) Zoo (8.8%)
4) Dredge (6.1%)
5) Reanimator (5.8%)
6) Ad Nauseam (5.3%)
7) Goblins (4.4%)
8) Lands (4.2%)
9) Charbelcher (3.3%)
10) Threshold (2.9%)
11) Eva Green (2.5%)
12) Stax (2.5%)
Other than a (comparatively) weak showing in Atlanta by Countertop (7.5%), Countertop and Zoo have been more common in the last 5 opens than the numbers above would indicate, usually making up 10-11% of the field each. Dredge has seen a steep drop in popularity this year, and made up 2.5% of the field in Philly. The average frequency of Reanimator has increased by nearly 2% since it won Madrid. Threshold has seen a huge drop in popularity this year, and I could only find one such deck listed in the results for Philly. One deck that isn't listed above that should be is New Horizons. It made up 6.8% of the field in Philly, and I'm expecting it to stay at least that popular. Based on the information I've gathered, mixed with a little bit of guess work, I'm guessing the current SCG open meta will look something like this:
1) Zoo (~11.5%)
2) Counterop (~11%)
3) Merfolk (~10.5%)
4) New Horizons (~8.5%)
5) Reanimator (~8%)
6) Ad Nauseam (~7%)
7) Goblins (~5.5%)
8) Lands (~4.5%)
Furthermore, a friend challenged me to name which decks would top 8 in Seattle, so I decided to take a crack at it:
1) New Horizons
2) Ad Nauseam
3) Goblins
4) Zoo
5) Goblins
6) New Horizons
7) Reanimator
8) New Horizons
I'm not going into details as to why I made these guesses. We'll just see how wrong I am later today. As for the goblin matchups, enjoy:
(Goblins vs)
Merfolk 21-16-0 (56.8%)
Countertop 17-7-4 (70.8%)
Zoo 16-30-2 (34.8%)
Dredge 7-7-1 (50%)
Reanimator 16-8-0 (66.7%)
Ad Nauseam 9-11-0 (45%)
Lands 6-8-2 (42.9%)
Charbelcher 5-9-0 (35.7%)
New Horizons 3-4-0 (42.9%)
Burn 7-5-0 (58.3%)
A friend of mine is not even a zoo player, he just copied a list over from this board. I frequently lost gainst him, no matter what I sided. He packs 16 burn spells, all his critters are cheaper and stronger then mine. He would burn my acceleration creatures and beat me, midgame he has 2 or 3 creatures on the field, as much as me but his are larger. I cannot keep lackey, instigator, warchief or chieftain in play, those are his burn targets, so no goblin engine running. Without them I just drop weaker and more expensive creatures then him. By the time I can get serious card advantage by casting ringleader I am mostly below 10 life and get smashed with burn.Quote:
Originally Posted by ddt15
Wasteland does not help for a smart zoo player will fetch for basics vs goblins.
Pyrokinesis makes me draw less goblins, gives me worse opeining hands and I could rarely trade 2 for 2 with it.
Perish mostly hits 1 creature, sometimes 2 and comes turn 3, often too late (I do play mono R atm anyway).
This is why I play Black/Red, and also why I play quad Instigators instead of the awful Chieftain, who is too slow for the Zoo matchup and really only improves exactly 1 matchup out of all the ones listed two posts up: The Goblin mirror.
If you're going to handle Zoo with mono-red, you need speed. Lightning Bolt, or more Stingscourgers, or Mogg War Marshals all help. Bolt's the best of the three for the matchup, though Stingscourger has more uses in general (And is sexy against Emrakul and random things like that.) Both are good in Mono Red.
I don't have nearly as much problem with Zoo. At all. I have 4 Warren Weirdings to help stem the tide early, and my Vials are much more dangerous at low numbers due to the threat of EOT Instigators. For the record, this is the list I run.
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 Auntie's Hovel
6 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
I'm a little confused by Double Strike but. . .if I attack with a Warren Instigator and it doesn't get blocked. . .it does 2 damage. . .and hits twice so I can put 2 goblins out?
Yep. (basically it does 1 damage first, you put a goblin into play, it does another damage (with the rest of the other creatures), you put a goblin into play)Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuad
Emrakul has protection from colored spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Mind posting your sideboard pool?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Stingscourger isn't a spell anymore when he's off the stack and resolved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelis
Thanx, never realised that. I couldn't imagine Taco making a mistake like that. I should've looked it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nessaja
What do you guys think of removing the black splash and going RG vial gobbies? Something like
MAIN DECK
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Stingscourger
3 Tin Street Hooligan
Creatures [31]
4 AEther Vial
2 Krosan Grip
Spells [6]
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Forest
3 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
Lands [23]
SIDEBOARD
1 Boartusk Liege
3 ??
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
or even
-1 Forest
-2 Tin Street
+1 Swamp
+2 Weirding
and make a RGB gobbies?
The question becomes why? What is it that your losing to so badly that you feel you need have all that hate against? Jitte? If theres really that much landstill or whatever thats packing that much goblins hate around you, play a different deck. But the green splash doesn't really help with the big stuff, such as Iona, Goyf, Sphinx, Emrakul, Progenitus, etc. Thats where the black and white splashes really shine. Personally, I feel the black splash is better because swords can't be tutored for, but it still has its benefits. Krosan grip? I wouldn't think so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuad