So what is the lists you're both testing now? I'm sorry we've been working on them so much that It's been a little difficult for me to alter and keep up.
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So what is the lists you're both testing now? I'm sorry we've been working on them so much that It's been a little difficult for me to alter and keep up.
The list I'm currently testing is:
Lands (23):
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog
Creatures (14):
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Dark Confidant
Disruption (12):
4 Thoughtseize
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach
Removal (11):
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
Sideboard (15):
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Infest
4 Extirpate
4 Diabolic Edict
Brian, haven't the Deeds been a pain in the ass of your confidants and goyfs? Is it worth it to run a full set of them?
By the way, I strongly suggest to cut 2 Verdicts for 2 Duresses. I believe it is very important to have a 1st turn drop in as many games as possible, and this little change kinda improves the chances of that happening. Moreover, it also improves your mana curve as it lowers the probability of holding multiple cc2 spells in your hand, which you cannot take full advantage of when you have 3 mana available, for example.
I just realized you have 9 fetches. Nothing against having more ability to find the colors you need but... why so much of a life investment?
Nope, Deeds have been spectacular. The thing about Deed is that it is so so so so versatile. It will always benefit you when you crack it (unless it gets Stifled). If you're winning, then you can either crack the Deed to put you in a better position (say, by destroying potential blockers) or you can not crack it (say, if you have a Goyf and a Confidant out that you don't want to destroy). If you're losing, well then Deed saves you, unless it's a Tombstalker, Iona, or Progenitus beating you down. It's never a bad card, is basically the point I'm trying to make; it's effectiveness is entirely determined by how you decide to use it. Coupled with Vindicates, Wastelands, and KotR, it can actually mana screw some people out of the game (I mean by blowing up Vials, Noble Hierarchs, and Mox Diamonds). Sorry if this post is kind of all over the place, I'm just having a hard time describing Deed's versatility. Against most matchups, I always want to see one; however, against most matchups, I usually don't want to see more than one, so maybe the full playset isn't necessary.Quote:
Brian, haven't the Deeds been a pain in the ass of your confidants and goyfs? Is it worth it to run a full set of them?
Ok, I'll try that.Quote:
By the way, I strongly suggest to cut 2 Verdicts for 2 Duresses. I believe it is very important to have a 1st turn drop in as many games as possible, and this little change kinda improves the chances of that happening. Moreover, it also improves your mana curve as it lowers the probability of holding multiple cc2 spells in your hand, which you cannot take full advantage of when you have 3 mana available, for example.
You always want Knight to be huge when you play it. Maybe the life loss is too much, but it's hard to tell (when was the last time you attributed a loss to too many fetches?). It could also potentially just be a relic from my old list where I had Tops, and therefore wanted as many shuffle effects as possible. Basically, the answer is, I don't know whether 9 is right or not. But when I can say is, against non-Stifle-but-with-Wasteland decks, fetches really help you avoid mana screw. Being able to fetch basics consistently is a big plus.Quote:
I just realized you have 9 fetches. Nothing against having more ability to find the colors you need but... why so much of a life investment?
If you're in a winning board position, I don't see how cracking a Deed can remove blockers as almost all of your own creatures are 2-3cc; unless your opponent is running 1cc creatures only (unlikely), then wouldn't Deed be symmetrical for the most part? I can see why you'd want a "reset" button in case you find yourself staring at an army, but I would think 2, maybe 3 maximum, would suffice.
Also, I've noticed that Aggro Rock splits into two distinct lists; GW with a light splash of black, then BW with a light splash of green. The BWg version tends to run Nighthawk, Kiyomaro, and a lot more discard effects. The GWb version tends to run the traditional creature set (KotR, Witness, etc) and forgoes most discard effects in order to run more removal. I would suspect your meta will dictate which Aggro Rock build to run, but just looking at each build's respective creatures, I see the BWg version to have the most impact. Nighthawk and Kiyomaro (backed up by Verdict, Hymn, Duress/Thoughtsieze, Sculler) are absolutely monsters, easily can put the game out of reach against most aggro decks, and they just get silly with Doran.
What are your guys' thoughts on the BWg vs. the GWb builds?
Brian,
The best part about Knight is that he makes himself big over the course of 1 turn. It doesn't have to be when you play him as you can grow him from scratch to a 5 as soon as he's active (waste your own non-basic).Quote:
You always want Knight to be huge when you play it.
Every time we lose a game we should be wondering, "What caused of the loss." It's helped me tune a list and think of different things to test. Everything down to reducing the number of Duals down to 3 and the rest as basics. 9 Just seems high when you kinda want lands for Bob. Especially without Top. Try 5-7.Quote:
Maybe the life loss is too much, but it's hard to tell (when was the last time you attributed a loss to too many fetches?). It could also potentially just be a relic from my old list where I had Tops, and therefore wanted as many shuffle effects as possible.
Fetching basics isn't the best thing for you, due to your color requirements. And the Wastes may not come fast but they will hit hard when they do. You should include another basic swamp to the list and drop one of the fetches to that this stays true. Also, It may not seem big but Stompy lists are testing Avalanche Riders again... One could count as the game vs them.Quote:
But when I can say is, against non-Stifle-but-with-Wasteland decks, fetches really help you avoid mana screw. Being able to fetch basics consistently is a big plus.
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Arsenal, To be honest with you I can't actually help with this one, I'm a Control Rock player and I didn't notice a split as far as GWb and BWg on the aggro side. Both Brian and Gvbarroso should be able to help with that a little better than I can.
While this is true, it's much better if he's already big when you play him so you don't have to waste a turn using his ability. For example, let's say you're playing against Zoo. If you play Knight and he's only a 3/3, you can't favorably block Nacatls or Pridemages, and it's easily Bolted before you get another turn. If you play Knight and he's already a 5/5, you can block and save yourself 3-4 life. I've even had some games against Reanimator where I could race an Iona with Knight. Waiting an extra turn to pump up Knight would have lost me those games. While Knight's ability is definitely useful, it does take time to set up, and sometimes you just don't have that time.Quote:
The best part about Knight is that he makes himself big over the course of 1 turn. It doesn't have to be when you play him as you can grow him from scratch to a 5 as soon as he's active (waste your own non-basic).
If I know the deck I'm playing against plays Wastelands, I always fetch basics first if I don't have a Hymn in hand. Even if I can only hit two of the three colors, having two basics out is better than getting one of your two dual lands Wasted. About including a second Swamp, I don't see myself ever fetching two Swamps on turn two just for a Hymn, unless I'm really flooded and have enough fetches to get the other two colors. Usually one of each basic is enough. Also, Fetches are like pseudo-basics, in that they provide the choice to get one of two basics, with the cost of being Stifle-able and paying a life. I think that Fetches are the best insurance we have against LD; they are even better than basics against Sinkhole and Avalanche Riders, and prevent yourself from getting color screwed.Quote:
Fetching basics isn't the best thing for you, due to your color requirements. And the Wastes may not come fast but they will hit hard when they do. You should include another basic swamp to the list and drop one of the fetches to that this stays true. Also, It may not seem big but Stompy lists are testing Avalanche Riders again... One could count as the game vs them.
Deed is only symmetrical only if you choose it to be. For example, say you have a Goyf and a Deed vs. a Rhox War Monk and a Noble Hierarch. Sure, if you used it now, it would be a 2-for-2--no net card advantage. But you actually have the advantage in such a situation. Assuming that Goyf is a 4/5 at this point, the opponent can do absolutely nothing to break the standstill. If he attacks, you crack the Deed for 1, Goyf becomes a 5/6, and you block the RWM. If he commits more resources to the board, Deed nets you card advantage. If he keeps resources in his hand, Hymn and Gerrard's Verdict net you card advantage. And since your threats (Doran, Knight, Dark Confidant) are much scarier than his (Pridemage, Clique), you actually gain off this standstill. You keep playing huge threats protected by Hymns and Verdicts, while he draws countermagic and can't really play threats profitably for fear of Deed. Although it may not seem like it at first glance, you definitely have the advantage in this situation.Quote:
If you're in a winning board position, I don't see how cracking a Deed can remove blockers as almost all of your own creatures are 2-3cc; unless your opponent is running 1cc creatures only (unlikely), then wouldn't Deed be symmetrical for the most part? I can see why you'd want a "reset" button in case you find yourself staring at an army, but I would think 2, maybe 3 maximum, would suffice.
Although that might have seemed like a lot of blabbing about one really specific situation which might never show up, it just shows that there is much more to Deed than strictly resetting the board. It's about strategically placing yourself in a position where your opponent is damned no matter what play he makes.
I haven't noticed this particular split, and would argue that my build falls into neither category. I believe that the BWg version that you talk about is called Senor Weenie, and there is a separate thread for that. I'm not really sure how it plays out compared to the Rock, so I can't really comment on their similarities or differences. But to me, it seems that Senor Weenie is about overwhelming card advantage (it plays Skeletal Scrying/Sylvan Library too, doesn't it?), without that much board control. Maybe it relies on its lifelink creatures to control the board state as far as aggro decks are concerned. But I'm not really sure, maybe you could look at the Senor Weenie thread to answer your questions.Quote:
Also, I've noticed that Aggro Rock splits into two distinct lists; GW with a light splash of black, then BW with a light splash of green. The BWg version tends to run Nighthawk, Kiyomaro, and a lot more discard effects. The GWb version tends to run the traditional creature set (KotR, Witness, etc) and forgoes most discard effects in order to run more removal. I would suspect your meta will dictate which Aggro Rock build to run, but just looking at each build's respective creatures, I see the BWg version to have the most impact. Nighthawk and Kiyomaro (backed up by Verdict, Hymn, Duress/Thoughtsieze, Sculler) are absolutely monsters, easily can put the game out of reach against most aggro decks, and they just get silly with Doran.
What are your guys' thoughts on the BWg vs. the GWb builds?
Yes, I also think he is referring to Senor Weenie. But I also think that Senor Weenie is actually a version o The Rock, devoted to card advantage and life gain instead of board control. I never really thought in terms o such a split, but I dont think it matters just to formalize the differences.
One thing can come up from the enlightment o the different plans of these Rock versions, though. Have you guys ever considered running something like 4 Vampires Nighthawk and 3 Kitchen Finks in the sideboard to put in against very aggro strategies? I think the may do a better job than Deed (which sometimes is symmetrical) and Infest (which often cant get the job done)...
That's an interesting idea. However, both of those creatures cost three mana to play, and some aggressive decks (Goblins and Merfolk specifically) will put you so behind before you reach three mana that Kitchen Finks or Vampire Nighthawk won't help you all that much. I prefer to board in more removal so that I can survive the early game, stabilize, and dominate the mid-game.Quote:
One thing can come up from the enlightment o the different plans of these Rock versions, though. Have you guys ever considered running something like 4 Vampires Nighthawk and 3 Kitchen Finks in the sideboard to put in against very aggro strategies? I think the may do a better job than Deed (which sometimes is symmetrical) and Infest (which often cant get the job done)...
I can tell you from experience that you shouldn't could on creatures to win against Gobs. Scourger will make you regret it every time. I like Propaganda styled enchantments as they are tougher to deal with and buy you time.
I dont think 3 mana is that much. After all, besided StP, I run Smother and Diabolic Edict...Together with with thoughtseizse and the 2cc Goyf and even Bob, they assure me that I will have a calm board by the 3rd turn. Also, I dont think scourger is that harmful, specially if I board in Finks... Any thoughts?
There is something about a critter that just doesn't seem right as an answer to me. Maybe it's just my oppinion and I could be wrong but relying on something that's almost guaranteed to die just seems wrong.
It's not the first turns that they'll take you out. It'll be the 4th or 5th where you played the Finks expecting to have a blocker and then learn that off the charged vial and the 3-5 lands of their own they can play enough to win. That's what I would like to slow down. We can handle one or two of them swinging at us, it's when the whole red army comes down in a blaze of little red critters that are pumped by the leader(s) and you're out of answers because we played the blocker that I start to get worried.
So why not just solve the problem before that happens? Like you said you have enough removal. Slowing them down looks better to me than trying to throw a guy in their path. Even if he does come back.
My new list:
Lands (22):
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog
Creatures (13):
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Dark Confidant
Disruption (12):
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gerrard's Verdict
Removal (10):
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Swords to Plowshares
Manipulation (3):
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard (15):
4 Diabolic Edict
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Armadillo Cloak (Secret Tech! still under testing)
There aren't many differences between this and my last list, but a couple major ones I would like to point out:
1. The re-addition of Top: After removing Top from my list I found that I missed it. I didn't like having my only source of deck manipulation be so vulnerable to removal, and I was left in topdeck mode more often than I liked. I also didn't like not being able to play Bob under 10 life against aggressive decks, without the fear of too much life loss ending up killing me. Top solves both problems, and it's another reason for the high fetch count.
2. Vindicate --> Maelstrom Pulse: Not really too relevant of a change. I just didn't feel that I was using Vindicate's land-hitting ability all that much, and I wanted more answers to Iona set on white. The fact that you can hit multiples is nice, but wasn't the primary reason for the switch.
3. Back to an E-Tutor Sideboard: I didn't feel like I had enough in my old sideboard to address all the matchups I wanted to. Enlightened Tutor allows me to run more graveyard and combo hate, with the only loss being Infest (but ARMADILLO CLOAK surely makes up for that, right?). And yes, I do think Armadillo Cloak is better than Jitte in that last slot. In my opinion, Goyfs, Knights, and Dorans are scarier with Armadillo Cloaks than they are with Jittes.
"And yes, I do think Armadillo Cloak is better than Jitte in that last slot. In my opinion, Goyfs, Knights, and Dorans are scarier with Armadillo Cloaks than they are with Jittes."
you've got a point there, it stopps goyfstalls, an gives trample, i'm actually using Sword of Light and Shadow mainboard, instead of jitte. Some people now might think: "Why, are you stupid or something?", I've allready heard such comments^^, though my argumenting on it is, I play deed, and sword is much less likely to die to deed than Jitte is, plus it makes your guys bigger, which is good, and it gives your guys protections from the major removal spells out there, plus some sort of evasion as well, depending on the opponents deck
just immagine, sometimes it even gave me "goodgame", cause without swords they coudn't handle a 7/7 doran
so back on tipic, i think, as long as you're playing deed, Jitte is no good IMO, and i'm playing sword for the reasons above, and due to the lack of goyfs
the only thing that bugs me with armadillo cloak, is that if you lose the enchantet creature, your opponent actually gets cardadvantage, thats all
and i apologise for my english, cause i'm german (south tyrolian in italy to be precice) and last time i wrote something in english, was 5 years ago
Behemoth Sledge doesn't open you up to a 2-for-1, but it's twice as slow.
Don't know if that trade is acceptable or not...
[EDIT]: I don't think that either is a particularly good move.
since i'm all fired up now, i'd like to ask you guys for help on my rock list,
my problem is, as written before, the lack of goyfs, and (not written before) the lack of the good duals (using shocklands from ravnica block)
so, here than comes my list, and it's quite a bit diffrent to the list from brianw712
Lands (21)
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswepth Heath
3 Godless Shrine
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Plains
Creatures (18)
2 Quasali Pridemage
2 Eternal Wittness
3 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
2 Tombstalker / Loxodon Hierarch (still not sure which one is better in my case)
Removal/Discard (11/6)
4x vindicate
3x pernicoius deed
4x sword to plowshares
3x thoughtsieze
3x hymn to tourach
Other (5)
3x sensei's divining top
2x sword of light and shadow
well, since i'm still relatively new here, i was hoping that the more expierienced people on this thread could give me some advise, reguarding my list
should i change something?
if yes what to change and why?
.........
but pleas consider that my wallet is not able to get the hands ond goyfs and duals (hopely not for long anymore)
and it shoud be 61 cards in total i believe, and no one can change my mind about that :D
thx, and again excuse my english, i realy can't evaluate right now if my english is all right or completely wide of the mark
Always have had a soft spot for The Rock. It's ability to accumulate card advantage over the course of the game via sweepers, creatures, etc always made it a cool deck in my opinion. I have also been fiddling around with a 2 card combo that accumulates card advantage over the course of the game. Both pieces are fine on there own and both fit very well into a BGr Rock deck. Here's the list.
Punishing Rock
By Jak.
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
3 Tombstalker
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Touarch
SB
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
2 Gigapede
I would really love to fit in some more creatures, so I may cut the two Hymns. I have no idea what would go in their place. Maybe Kitchen Finks, but I would like something a little cheaper and bigger.
Edit-
Ooooh, Vampire Nighthawk! That card could definitely work out. It still is small, but has evasion, gains life, and can take out bigger guys. I might just throw 4 in there.
Tentative changes:
-2 Hymn
-2 Therapy
+4 Vampire Nighthawk
I was hoping I could get some feedback on this Doran Aggro build I just came up with. Some of the choices are a little unorthodox, I guess, but that's why I was asking you good folks what you think about it:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Bitterblossom
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library
3 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Bayou
3 Savannah
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
...So. What do y'all think?