[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Parcher

So let me get this straight. You mouth off completely incorrectly and most likely with zero actual experience about how bad an idea is. Then, when all proven evidence, and decade-old proven theory shows how baseless and lame your assumptions are, you make a snide comment insulting the person that does so; attempting to belittle their correct argument to take attention away from how obviously wrong you were.

Why even bother with a site that actually attempts to improve the quality of Legacy decks and promote the Legacy format?

---

1. I have posted more testing results/idea's then almost anyone one this thread. Besides you joe C.

2. I have tested every sb strategy this deck has.

3. I felt that the statement bum-man made was incorrect about just tossing our bad match ups..

Bum man even stated that:good match-ups (which is most of the field)
If we have a good MU vs. most of the field why not devote 4 slots in the board to give us game vs. every MU. The great thing about Ichorid is that our worst match up *combo* usually doesn't pack dredge hate. SO WHY TOSS THIS MU???

4. My post was sarcasm trying to state that bum man in fact does not know how to play magic. My bad bro.

@Parcher.
I respect you attempt to further progress LED dredge but please do not come to the LED less thread simply to throw gas on the fire of a 2 post dispute when you don't even post on this thread, or at least for the last 14 or so pages that I have been posting on.
So "Why even bother with a site that actually attempts to improve the quality of Legacy decks and promote the Legacy format?"


@Bum man
When I talk about a MU I consider it good or bad based upon the consistently of me beating it best 2/3 not just game ones.
I think this is were we differ in are posts?
Is this correct?

I still think this deck is to aggressive to side in an "answer" that you have to mulligan to.
I have tested gargadon vs. uwx landstill with decent results, but I already beat landstill without boarding them.. So I'm going to have to pass on the GG tech untill testing shows that I need more.
BTW I love you.:tongue:

On another note all bickering aside....

Has anyone tested vs. combo with chalice?
I mean I know chalice at 0 can slow them down, but with this deck thriving off of 1 mana cost spells is their a superior sb card vs this MU?
Opinions?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jimirynk

Bum man even stated that:good match-ups (which is most of the field)
If we have a good MU vs. most of the field why not devote 4 slots in the board to give us game vs. every MU. The great thing about Ichorid is that our worst match up *combo* usually doesn't pack dredge hate. SO WHY TOSS THIS MU???

---

I said the deck has a good match-up versus most of the field because there is very little chance that an opposing deck would beat it without using graveyard based disruption. Then post-board, they side-in against us tipping the match-up in their favor. We then sideboard stuff to tip it back in our deck's favor. We already have slots that give us game vs all match-ups post-board, these are what we call "anti-hate."
My point is, why bother putting in cards for bad match-ups that you won't face alot, not to mention these cards are dead versus most of the field, when you can just devote slots to improving the match-ups that you do expect to face alot. Let's say to you pack-in CotVs for combo. In a tournament, it is unlikely that you'll be able to use them because for often than not, coutertop has already more or less kept them from getting into the higher brackets, and with one or two combo decks showing up once in a while there is very little chance to face them at all. There is absolutely no point in packing-in things for bad MUs that you won't expect to face anyway.
The logic I'm following is the same logic why I play Non-LED Dredge compared to LED Dredge, its all about being hella better at more match-ups over being slightly better in less relevant match-ups due to its speed and explosiveness.

If you really have experience playing with this deck, you'd know that this deck's worst match-up is vs prison type decks and not combo. Combo decks don't have to board-in graveyard hate when they can just win before we do. I've played combo they can just flat out win before we even think of what to do with the cards in our hand. If you think combo is such a big problem why don't you just play LED Dredge, it has a faster goldfish and completely goldfishes decks that don't have graveyard hate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jimirynk

@Bum man
When I talk about a MU I consider it good or bad based upon the consistently of me beating it best 2/3 not just game ones.
I think this is were we differ in are posts?
Is this correct?

---

I believe so, I was referring to this deck beating match-ups consistently in every game you play them and not just how many times you happen to squeeze out a round win versus them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jimirynk

I still think this deck is to aggressive to side in a "answer" that you have to mulligan to.I have tested gargadon vs. uwx landstill with decent results, but I already beat landstill with out boarding them??:confused:
BTW I love you.:tongue:

---

You should try versus testing decks that Dredge doesn't really have a great match-up already because I doubt you have done so. Especially blue variants that has fast clocks (ie. Tarmogoyf, Phyrexian Dreadnought, etc.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jimirynk

Has anyone tested vs. combo with chalice?
I mean I know chalice at 0 can slow them down, but with this deck thriving off of 1 mana cost spells is their a superior sb card vs this MU?
Opinions?

---

For the deck's sake... Chalice is good vs AdNauseam decks because it kills all their 0cc mana sources post-AdN. This forces them to chain rituals to be able to have some mana floating after AdN. It kills their IGG Loop too. This slows them down, giving you enough time to therapy away their grips, wipe aways, rituals and win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bum_man

If you really have experience playing with this deck, you'd know that this deck's worst match-up is vs prison type decks and not combo.

---

Not true...
If you are talking strictly game1's then yes they are hard, but with the correct sb you should not have problems with such slow decks.
But combo can simply win turn one or turn 2 if not disrupted in some way(therapy is usually to slow).
But prison decks i.e. enchantress, white stacks, dragonstompy, have such small turnouts and are so inconsistent that I feel like I have such a higher chance playing vs. combo.
So I think having Sb cards vs combo is a viable idea for this deck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bum_man

I believe so, I was referring to this deck beating match-ups consistently in every game you play them and not just how many times you happen to squeeze out a round win versus them.

---

I said if you can beat them 2/3 meaning playing full games with board, I'm not talking about just three games..
It really seems like you just want to argue more than actually discuss anything about improving this deck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bum_man

You should try versus testing decks that Dredge doesn't really have a great match-up already because I doubt you have done so. Especially blue variants that has fast clocks (ie. Tarmogoyf, Phyrexian Dreadnought, etc.)

---

Blue is the closest thing to a bye this deck has, except merfolk but the MU after board is in our favor.
Blue decks are to slow, very easy to hurt with therapy, and their best turn 2 play vs. us is goyf (dreadnaught in verrry little situations).
But our deck should win turn 2-3 so why is turn 2 goyf game1 so good?
On another side note dreadstill is not a big deck in american metagames..
I play vs. more combo than dreadstill at any tournament.
But before you respond back with your angry counterpoint, dreadstill is a good MU for me, I side in 4 grudges and xCoV.
If you find that dreadstill is a hard MU I suggest running 4 ancient grudges.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bum_man

For the deck's sake... Chalice is good vs AdNauseam decks because it kills all their 0cc mana sources post-AdN. This forces them to chain rituals to be able to have some mana floating after AdN. It kills their IGG Loop too. This slows them down, giving you enough time to therapy away their grips, wipe aways, rituals and win.

---

Yeaa I've been leaning towards chalice.




What does your board look like bum man?
My side board is:
4 ancient grudge
4 chain of vapor
2 ray of revaluation
1 ancestors chosen
4 ???? (leaning towards chalice)

My sideboard only contains very broad choices that can help improve any MU.
Do you have narrow answers vs. the decks you plan on seeing?
I don't get where this argument is coming from..
It feels like we just have 2 different approaches to playing the same deck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jimirynk

Not true...
If you are talking strictly game1's then yes they are hard, but with the correct sb you should not have problems with such slow decks.
But prison decks i.e. enchantress, white stacks, dragonstompy, have such small turnouts and are so inconsistent that I feel like I have such a higher chance playing vs. combo.

---

It is true that combo decks have much higher turn-outs than prison decks, but relatively they make-up relatively a small amount of the meta (mine, at least) that they only merit 3 of my sb slots. These are my metagame slots which i'll go to later.
Those decks are in fact slow but the problem is they have so much ways to stop us. Prison effects, Suppresion Fields, Magus of the Tabernacle, Glowrider, Elephant Grass, Moat, Solitary Confinement etc. are all capable to handling the deck's threats and they all come in play at the same time that the deck gets overwhelmed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jimirynk

What does your board look like bum man?
I mean my side board is:
4 ancient grudge
4 chain of vapor
2 ray of revaluation
1 ancestors chosen
4 ???? (leaning towards chalice)
I mean my sideboard only contains very broad choices that can help improve any MU.

---

I play with:
3 Pithing Needles - Don't have a 4th
3 Chain of Vapors - Given
2 Wispmare - Used to be 3 but since I haven't been seeing enchantments, I cut 1 and kept 2 for good measure.
2 Ancient Grudge - These compliment Needles and also kills off naughts
2 Firestorm - metagame slot, can turn into serenity, or chalices
1 Ancestor's Chosen - Haven't used this so far, but still nice to have ready somehow
1 Woodfall Primus - Another metagame slot, ive lost to propaganda effects for quite sometime, i'll be expecting them to compliment gy hate since i play in a very aggro meta.
1 Ray of Revelation - For propaganda effects too

I haven't been seeing LotV for sometime now, so I basically tuned my sb to handle multiple forms of artifact hate, propaganda effects, and some help against aggro. I tested vs aggro decks a few days ago and I found 3 md Darkblasts, 2 Firestorm and Reveillark very good against these match-ups. Been thinking about adding a Firestorm but I can't find space as of now.

OT: has anyone tried Eternal Witness in a Non-LED build or is it really too much a big investment to Return Witness and not necessarilly win the game right then and there?

I have tested witness, but do not run it myself since I am runnign brainstorms over breakthrough and it has no real benefit over sage. In LED dredge it is good, but in LEDless it's uses are much more limited so I would still run sage over it.

Also on gargadon. The card is terrible. I really don't understand why people play it. Oh sure its a cute trick, but we can play much better cards instead of wasting slots on gargadon. I can't imagine any matchup against which I would side in gargadon wether i'm running LEDless dredge or LED dredge. The card is just trash.

Also on chalice of the void. It is a better option than unmask, but isn't worth more than 2 slots imo. Getting multiples of it in your opening isn't all that great and combo decks are slower than they were in the past so we can still race them with the help of a well timed therapy.

honestly, I dont think the combo match up is worth making slots in the board for. We will either get lucky and they have a slow hand and we steamroll them game 1. Games 2/3 bring in ancestor's chosen and hope to get him into play ASAP to get way ahead in life. To make the matchup even close to 50/50we need chalice and unmask in our board. Which sorta screws other matchups. I have just forsaken winning that battle in favor of making the other matches at least in our favor after boarding. My sb:

4 Ancient Grudge
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm(this is just so amazing)
3 Wispmare
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Inkwell leviathan(my become bogardan hellkite-nice against gobbos and merfolk)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bum_man

OT: has anyone tried Eternal Witness in a Non-LED build or is it really too much a big investment to Return Witness and not necessarilly win the game right then and there?

---

I've been running EWitness instead of Sage, but my list in general looks a little weird run now. More and more often I've found that I need to slow dredge - even in game one which EWitness facilitates much better than sage. Also it allows me to play one-ofs (that don't dredge) in the main board and reliably have access to them. These versions play so many lands that if I really want to have the Sage effect I can just recur Breakthrough.

I havent seen it mentioned here before I dont think, has anyone tried Reya Dawnbringer? Allows free ichorid/troll/ recursions every upkeep..... worth a try? or danger of cool things?

Im back to running null rod in my sb. The fact that it hoses combo to an extent makes it even better. Grudge is good, but there is too much trinket mage into crypt=srew me. I may put a few grudges in along side them.

@JoeC.
Vs. decks with trinket mage tool box you always name trinket mage as your first blind name.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jimirynk

@JoeC.
Vs. decks with trinket mage tool box you always name trinket mage as your first blind name.

---

this is normally my strategy, but given they can hide mage away with brainstorm, therapy just isnt enough. Null Rod is a permanent answer and it is usually not expected by the opponent at all. Most players will board out spell snare or even force against us, so it makes it even stronger

I do agree on how strong null rod is but say you side in 4, draw your hand and its a god hand, but no null rod do you keep?
Can you keep?

I love grudge as an answer because you have to mulligan to a good hand with this deck and if you need to mulligan to a good hand/answer you might just beat yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jimirynk

I do agree on how strong null rod is but say you side in 4, draw your hand and its a god hand, but no null rod do you keep?
Can you keep?

I love grudge as an answer because you have to mulligan to a good hand with this deck and if you need to mulligan to a good hand/answer you might just beat yourself.

---

since i run 4 putrid imp and 4 tireless tribe I can slow play it until I get an opportunity to dredge for the win or draw into null rod. I have won countless games on the backs of stinkweed/ putrid/moeba beats. I may splash a few grudges in the board as well to compliment the rods, maybe a 3/2 rod/grudge split.

Also, being that rods wouldnt be in the deck until g2/3 the combo is usually boarded out, so a god hand would be an imp or a tribe, 1-2 lands, and a therapy and a dredger.

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise


4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
2 Breakthrough
4 Cabal therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot


SB:
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Null Rod
1 Ancestor's Chosen
3 Wispmare
3 Firestorm
1 Inkwell Leviatian
1 Ray of Revelation


Im thinking I am settled on this list. This is performing well for me. Not sure if I want bogardan hellkite over leviathan since it can send 5 to the dome and win the game right then and there, best decks it would come in against run stifle so maybe not worth the risk....

Thoughts?

Your maindeck is almost identical to mine. My list has these changes...

-2 breakthrough
+2 brainstorm

-1 golgari thug
-1 dread returns
+1 ichorid
+1 cabal therapy

-1 undiscovered paradise
+1 cephalid coliseum

Cutting the dreturns has worked very well for me and my only concern with your list would be not having enough draw power to win games quickly. In all honesty I would love to be able to fit in another breakthrough in my list, but I don't think I can cut anything without screwing up the decks consistancy. I would also definately fit the 4th ichorid back in the maindeck.

Here is my sb too...

2 chain of vapor
2 ray of revelation
3 ancient grudge
2 firestorm
1 darkblast
3 chalice
2 open slots

You cut the dread returns? How do you justify that? That gets rid of almost all of your fast win conditions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by beastman

You cut the dread returns? How do you justify that? That gets rid of almost all of your fast win conditions.

---

Assuming that a fast win requires a number of dredges, odds are that you will hit one of your dreturns by then. If for some reason you don't, you can just destroy your opponents hand via therapy and win a turn or two later.

LOL, I thought you meant you cut all of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by andrew77

Assuming that a fast win requires a number of dredges, odds are that you will hit one of your dreturns by then. If for some reason you don't, you can just destroy your opponents hand via therapy and win a turn or two later.

---

I don't know about dropping to 2 returns. I feel like having the 3rd is a nice security blanket to have in case you need to get a troll out in play to block and fill the board with more tokens. Especially game2/3 where returning a troll is a really strong play. I havent had any speed problems with my build, if I wanted to win quick I would just play the LED version.

This is the list I've been screwing around with:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot



The main problem I have been having lately is my opening hand will be 1-2 imp,1-2 lands,1-3 dredgers.
I don't want to mulligan do to the fact that I know I'm going to have a imp resolve but then i just go dredge pass.

So I want to fit in either the 4th breakthrough OR
now here me out on this, cut all the breakthroughs and add another land or two and add 2-3 deep analysis giving you draw power even if your hand had no draw in it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jimirynk

This is the list I've been screwing around with:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot



The main problem I have been having lately is my opening hand will be 1-2 imp,1-2 lands,1-3 dredgers.
I don't want to mulligan do to the fact that I know I'm going to have a imp resolve but then i just go dredge pass.

So I want to fit in either the 4th breakthrough OR
now here me out on this, cut all the breakthroughs and add another land or two and add 2-3 deep analysis giving you draw power even if your hand had no draw in it.

---

Im not sold on deep analysis in the nonLED lists. We are more likely to take damage from city over a long game and the 3 life for a draw 2 and no discard effect seems iffy. I wouldnt actually change your list at all man, I only run 2 breakthrough in favor of thug #4, other than that we are really close to playing identical lists. The third breakthrough is nice to have at times, but I hate playing too risky with it....