[Deck] Zoo

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Originally Posted by Guevera59

Congratulations b4r0n. How were the PoP's? Was the life loss ever significant? Were you hesitant to play them when you had so many duals/did you fetch basics to avoid the damage? And, did you ever wish that they could hit creatures?

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Thanks. Price of Progress was awesome all day long. My plan was to get in around 10 damage with creatures, then burn out my opponent for the remaining ~10 points. Price of Progress goes a long way towards accomplishing that; it consistently did 4-6 damage to my opponents. Dealing the equivalent of 1.5 or 2 burn spells with a single card seems like a good deal. Although I did about 4-8 damage to myself each time I played Price of Progress, the deck is so aggressive that it didn't really matter. I was never hesitant to play Price, as my life total was always higher than my opponents and those extra points of damage were what allowed me to win games.

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Originally Posted by AngryTroll

With these (mostly) standardized GRW lists with Pridemage and friends, it's probably a relevant question again (last time this was discussed was long before Pridemage and the current builds):

Is Figure of Destiny better than Kird Ape? Our team tested Goyf Sligh, and we came to the conclusion that it was a fair amount better than Ape, although most people seemed to come to the opposite conclusion.

Wild Necatl is easily the best one drop, but Figure seems slightly better than Kird Ape, which is better than Skyshroud Elite. Grim Lavamancer falls in there somewhere around Figure, probably. I'd probably take B4RON's exact list (congrats on the finish), and go -4 Kird Ape, -2 Thoctar; +4 Figure, +2 Grim Lavamancer (or 3/3 split). Of course, I didn't just split for first, though.

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I played around with Figure of Destiny in Goyf Sligh, and I really liked it there. One of the main appeals of Figure over Kird Ape in Goyf Sligh is that you don't have to fetch out your Taigas in order to make it big; it functions off of basic Mountains, so you only need to fetch out Taigas to play Goyfs. However, in Zoo, you almost always have a Forest on the board. The manabase of Zoo is a lot more conducive for supporting Kird Ape than the manabase of Goyf Sligh.

Also, in Zoo, I don't know if I really want to be spending mana to pump Figure to a 2/2 on turn 2; I'd rather be dropping a Qasali on turn 2 and swinging with a 3/4 Ape or a 4/4 Nacatl. Similarly, I don't think that I'd often pump Figure to a 4/4; I'd rather play a Goyf or even a Thoctar. Figure is definitely good, but I'm not sure that it's really any better than Kird Ape. Kird Ape just seems like a better fit.

The additional point of toughness is definitely relevant too. I run Volcanic Fallout in the board.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

Knight of the Reliquary is a house, and I will always reccomend him over Wooly Thoctar if you want a 3 drop. He doesn't get hit by hydroblast or Chill, and he is absolutely huge. If you end up in a stand off, he makes it much easier to win by thinning out your deck while becoming absolutely monstrous. And in corner cases, he can fix your mana, or pretty much infinitely fuel your lavamancers. If you've been finding Thoctar lacking but still want a three drop like I have, I can't reccomend Knight enough.

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Congrats on the finish. That's an interesting idea, I hadn't thought of that. I'll definitely test it out.

I still think that the games where you can turn figure into a 4/4 will matter more than the games where a measly 2/3 ape will get in there for the win. Really, running figure does not slow you down (much at all). The times where a 2/3 is going to matter is vs. other aggro, which you should beat already. But eh. I already know my philosophy on this deck is a lot different from most people anyway.

Hi can you guys give your opinion of my list?
decklist:
4 Wild nacatl
4 tarmogoyf
4 kird ape
3 grim lavamancer
4 qasali pridemage

4 chain lightning
4 lightning bolt
3 fireblast
3 rancor/magma jet
4 rift bolt/path to exile
3 price of progress

4 bloodstained mire
3 wooded foothills
3 windswept heath
3 taiga
1 plateau
1 savannah
1 forest
1 plain
3 mountain

I don't like vial i think it really slows you down on turn 1!
I really like the game plan of burning the opponent price of progress and fireblast for the finishing touch grim lavamancer for the mid-game creature base is pretty standard. chain/lightning bolt are the best burn spells cheap removal, the spots that are a little blanc for me are 3 rancor/magma jet and the 4 rift bolt/path to exile. Those 4 rift bolt are maybe a little over the top so maybe extra removal or maybe 4 lightning helix I really don't know suggestions please!!!
I'm still thinking about the sideboard. some anti goblin/anti blue(choke)/anti atrifact enchantment/ anti combo.

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Originally Posted by proraptor

Hi can you guys give your opinion of my list?
decklist:
4 Wild nacatl
4 tarmogoyf
4 kird ape
3 grim lavamancer
4 qasali pridemage

4 chain lightning
4 lightning bolt
3 fireblast
3 rancor/magma jet
4 rift bolt/path to exile
3 price of progress

4 bloodstained mire
3 wooded foothills
3 windswept heath
3 taiga
1 plateau
1 savannah
1 forest
1 plain
3 mountain

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Other than the mana, it looks pretty optimal to me.

I'd definitely go with Jet and Path to Exile over Rancor and Rift Bolt. Path to Exile was incredible for me during testing and all day at the DHG Mox Event, the citp tapped land was almost always irrelevant, and having an answer to Dreadnoughts, 3/4+ Goyfs and Tombstalkers (that doesn't gain them, 12, 3-6, or 5 life) just makes games that much easier. I played 3 in my list, and after the event, I feel it's definitely a card I should have run 4 of.

Rancor I feel like just opens you up to card disadvantage for buffing that you don't need. Rancoring up a Nacatl to have it Plowed, Submerged or Snuff'd Out is a huge beating, we play no means to recover card disadvantage, so I think the risk of being 2 for 1'd is just too great. If you're looking for a creature enhancement spell in the main I think Umezawa's Jitte is the correct choice. But I also feel like more burn, especially burn that Scrys is a welcomed addition. I ran 4 Jet in my list Saturday and was never upset to see it, as I remember every resolved Jet ended up sending at least 1 land to the bottom.

For the manabase I'd run 4 Foothills over Mires, they fetch all your duals, basic Mountain and Forest; Mire only gets Plateau, Taiga and Basic Mountain. I'd run a 2nd Plateau as well as Wasteland insurance, either cutting a Mountain or another Mire.

IE:

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3/2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plain
2/3 Mountain

For lists not running Fireblast I prefer: 8 G Fetches, 1 Mire, 3 Taiga, 3 Plateau, 2 Savannah, 1 of each Basic. If going up to 21 land than +1 Mire.

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Originally Posted by Volt

I tested FoD a while back and became pretty convinced that it was better than Kird Ape. I was running 20 lands, though.

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Same results.
Running 4x Figure may be a bit much though.

hello zoo thread.

i just took 1st in my weekly tourney with zoo!

here is the list i ran:

land(18)

2 mire
3 foothills
1 heath
3 taiga
3 plateau
3 savannah
1 mountain
1 forest
1 plains

creatures(21)

4 goyf
4 pridemage
4 kird ape
4 wild cat
3 thoctar
2 lavamancer

utility(21)

2 sylvan library
4 bolt
4 chain
4 helix
4 STP
3 null rod


tourney report:

1st opponent: mono red burn

gm 1
i get in early beats with cat and ape but its not enuff and he burns me out real quick.he has sulfuric vortex and during my upkeep i am at 6 so i take 2 then he fireblasts me.

i lose :frown:

gm 2
this game the vortex hurts him as i beat early with creatures and my own burn.but he put up a good fight as he burned the crap out of me,got me down to 6 life real quick!next turn my wild cat hits for 3 ,brings him from 8 to 5 ,i cast a helix to get him to 2 and during his upkeep he takes 2 from his vortex.

i win.

gm 3
more of the same from me with early thoctar and goyf creature beats and from him casting 4 1cc spells to bring me to 12 very quickly.i drop a lavamancer after swinging with creatures.he forced to block with keldon marauders to slow down all the creature damage i am doing.he stalls on 1 land for a few turns and finally gets another mountain but its too late as he will die this turn with a lavamancer activation so he is forced to fireblast the mancer.to live 1 more turn. he does not draw an answer and he scoops.

i win

1-0

2nd opponent:dragon stompy

i fear this matchup.chalice,blood moon, and 3sphere.yikes!!

gm 1:
he has a sick hand and its all him game 1 as he plays in succession chalice for 1,blood moon,3sphere!! needless to say i lose.hellbent raiders go the distance.

gm 2:
he drops 2 chrome mox early and magus but does not see much after that.i manage to burn magus, drop a null rod,thoctar and wild cat and they win it for me.

gm 3:
same as game 1 with chalice ,blood moon, 3 sphere totally shutting me down. he also has 1 mountain and 2 chome mox .but he stalls after that.so i manage to drop null rod,get a forest in play which allows me to grip his blood moon which allows me to cast pridemage to kill his chalice which allows me to
drop my 1 cc creatures and use my 1 cc burn spells.i go on to win .

yikes!! that was close.i think if he does not stall and gets a threat on board he prolly wins.
at the same time i feel good about playing thru the best game state he could have. i am just happy to walk away with a win in this one.

gg jeff

2-0

me and opp.3 ID to the top 4.

2-1
on to the top 4:

1st top4 opponent: ANT again. argg! i dread this matchup.

gm 1:
he goes 1st and combos off on his second turn!?! ouch.

gm 2:
i drop second turn pyrostatic pillar.next turn he casts a bunch of cards takes damage from pillar then casts a mini tendrills he goes back to 17 and puts me at 6 . i get null rod out next turn,drop a few creatures and beat with them,get him in burn range and bolt him for the win.

gm 3
i get second turn null rod and that really helps me.it slows him down enuff to let me beat and burn a little before he tries to go off with ad nauseum.with null rod out ,he cant find the right cards and ends up taking lethal dmg from ad nauseum.

wow.null rod is good in this matchup but i am just happy to get a win here knowing ANT can go off any moment.

on to top 2:

vs.aggro loam

Game 1, he drops chalice for 1. ouch!! that hurts.then drops seismic assault with two life from the loam, he destroys my critters and drops tarmogoyf.it goes the distance.

Game 2, he drops chalice for 1 again.it slows me down until pridemage shows up.i then drop thoctar and wild cat.i manage to burn some small blockers and the cat and thoctar win it for me.

Game 3, he drops wasteland but uses it to cast things so im thinking he's missing a color.it turns out to be green so he stalls a bit without green. i drop wild cat and ape
they beat a little before EE takes them out.i then drop 2 goyfs and they win it for me!

1st place!


looking back sylvan library was a non factor and when i did draw it i was not very happy to see it so it will get the axe.

blood moon and chalice are a PAIN!! i think i will try to squeeze in a few more basics to get around the moon.
and side in the grips for chalice or maybe tin street hooligan?
perhaps pridemage and grip are enuff?

comments and suggestions please.

@ joey223: Congrats! How do you consistently cast Thoctar with only 18 lands. It amazes me how people can drop to so few lands without cantrips and still do so well.

Hooligan isn't necessary anymore in my opinion, we got exalted guys to do that :cool: .

And if you really don't like artifacts, then run Ancient Grudge. I know you have NullRod and Pridemage, but Grudge is just amazing.

I took the 5-color version to my local tournament and placed 2nd, losing to a CounterTop deck that had some amazing draws.

The deck is a blast to play. For those stuck on three-color, give it a shot. The list is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...&postcount=396 I went -1 Savannah, -1 Bloodstained Mire, +2 Jitte. It worked out pretty well. My sideboard went like this:
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Compost
4 Volcanic Fallout
4 Krosan Grip

As for swapping Tribal Flames for Price of Progress, PoP doesn't kill creatures, and Tribal Flames kills them good, though needs just a little help killing Tarmogoyf.

Vial is amazing in this deck, specifically in this build, since everything costs 2. Very important for getting around Spell Snare.

I didn't have much of a chance to use Trygon Predator, but he's definitely still a relevant threat in this format and doesn't really feel redundant alongside the Pridemages.

My sideboard did okay for being such a rush job (I put it together on the way to the tournament.) My only issue was with Volcanic Fallout's RR in the cost. I boarded it in often, but saw it so rarely. I'm not overjoyed at the card. Grips were fantastic, as could be expected, and Compost is way too good in my meta not to use. Relics are kind of a toss up. I'm not sure they help matches that I'm not already winning.

I'm quite satisfied with this deck and will work on it some more for next week. If you're stuck on 3-color, or think the manabase on this deck is too screwy, give it a shot anyway. You may be pleasantly surprised.

Seems like if you going to run rancor, bonesplitter might just be better. Its a 2 mana commitment over a 1 mana one, but it hits just as hard and takes away the card disadvantage issue. This card turns every guy into a big threat.
Biggest problem is that it gets hit by exploseives at 1.
Also, a burn spell is prob just better.

I think Rancor is used more for the trample than the +2 power. The guys you play are already big enough, and smashing other creatures is only eclipsed by smashing through them.

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

I think Rancor is used more for the trample than the +2 power. The guys you play are already big enough, and smashing other creatures is only eclipsed by smashing through them.

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Makes sense. I didn't think that the creature size was that different bewteen this deck and other creature decks that trample would do that much, except goblins. Merfolk, dragon stompy, other zoo, loam decks all seem to have pretty large creatures.

I am trying to "convert" my Goyfsligh into more of Zoo-style deck. So I was replacing The Hellspark Elemenatl slot with Pridemages and changing one burn slot against 3 Path to Exile and one additional land to come up to 20. I really would like to stick to a "near" Goyfsligh list to be not too heavily reliant on W mana and to keep a high amount of burn spells. I thought about -1 Fireblast -1 Magma Jet but I do not see a compelling card choice to be included in those two slots. Thoctar is rather clumsy, adding one more Path or PoP doesn not sound like the big deal, 2 Helix are not too bad but then I am adding more W .... if you have some arguments for occupying this slots with card X I am open to suggestions.

Creatures:
4x Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer

Spells:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Path to Exile
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast

20 Lands (still have to determine that, suggestions are welcome)

SB:
Fixed:
3 Vexing Shusher
2 Krosan Grip

Further Choices:
1 Krosan Grip (unsure because of Pridgemage Main and against CBT also Shusher helps)
3-4 Gaddock Teeg (unsure if to include him at all, against Landstill or Stax he shines maybe even against Storm ... with Landstill being the most relevant ... but there is also Winter Orb which is harder to remove)
3 Winter Orb (also could play in combination with Gaddock, Winter Orb is a more general answer against control matchups)
2 Jitte (as I play no Helix 2 is at least what I think I should play)
2 Choke (unsure to include that at all)
2-3 Volcanic Fallout / Pyroclasm (sounds great on paper but against which matchup is it relevant? Aggro Swarm like Survival Elves maybe Merfolk which is already a good matchup ... I really do not see many decks it matters against.)

SB suggestion also welcome. Since my next tourney I am going to is rather small I expect a rather random meta but CBT with or without Coatl surely will be present.

-4 Magma Jet, +4 Helix.

It's worth it. Trust me. Also, Thoctar is a beating, play him.

As I said earlier in the thread, Knight of the Reliquary is better than Thoctar in just about every instance.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

As I said earlier in the thread, Knight of the Reliquary is better than Thoctar in just about every instance.

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What about the instance where you only have 2 lands in your GY?

You have a lot of options in such a case.

1-Tap it once and it's a 6/6.
2-Beat down as a 4/4. 1 Power isn't usually that relevant.
3-Crack another Fetchland.

And considering all of the card's upsides when compared to thoctar, I really don't think there's a contest.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

What about the instance where you only have 2 lands in your GY?

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Between your fetchlands (and fireblasts if you run it) and enemy's wastelands this will happen very rare.
The only game I can wanted Thoctar over her was Affinity with MD/SB Relic. But I already run Ancient Grudge in sideboard ('cause they are fucking awesome), so that was not a big problem.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

You have a lot of options in such a case.

1-Tap it once and it's a 6/6.
2-Beat down as a 4/4. 1 Power isn't usually that relevant.
3-Crack another Fetchland.

And considering all of the card's upsides when compared to thoctar, I really don't think there's a contest.

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1-Tapping it to make it better is a waste of an attack.

2-It is still a 4/4 and worse than Thoctar.

3-What if you don't have a 4th land?

Basically, I think it can be better, but worse more than half the time.

You run 9 fetchlands so every 7 (or 6.67 to be exact) draws you will get a fetchland on average. By turn 4 (when you could be attacking with KotR or Thoctar), you will have 11 draws (7 for your opening hand and 4 for the game assuming you are on the draw). You will, on average, not get more than 2 fetchlands by turn 4 and most often it will be attacking as a 3/3 or 4/4.

I could totally see the downside. I hate making their GY hate even more viable. Grudge or not. I could see KotR being good in Fireblast/ Lavamancer builds but not the more creature heavy lists such as mine.

It takes me back to Extended too when Saito's deck ran KotR and Treetop Villages. I'm definitely not condoning Treetop Village at all i'm just saying it'd be neat to have a 1of neat land. Too bad it doesn't work that way.

I also just noticed you (hungryLIKEALION) are running Lavamancer. The cards play horribly together.