[Archetype] CounterTop

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

I'd probably cut down on the FoF, a Clique, and add Humility or Wrath of God.

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Wrath as a two of would be pretty sweet. I am not sure on the mana yet because that would up it to six 4cc cards. I don't like that at all.

61 Cards

4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins / Tropical Island

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Elspeth

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance

4 Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Swords
2 Vedalken Shackles

SB
4 Path to Exile
3 Krosan Grip
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Wing Shards
1 Counterspell
3 Rhox War Monk

Curve
1: 15
2: 11
3: 7
4: 4
5: 4

Maybe -2 FoF, +2 WoG would work. Also, sorry for all the lists but I feel it's easier for people to read than -w, -x, -y, +z.

@Jak - I'd cut it down to 60. Probably drop one of the FoF.

@Hanni - Uhh, he's a house because he swings for 6 and gains you 6 life. That's a significant chunk out of your opponents life. Elspeth makes him better. And Path to Exile doesn't stop Zoo from burning you. At least RWM negates some of it, eats 2 burn or one PTE/STP.

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@Hanni - Uhh, he's a house because he swings for 6 and gains you 6 life. That's a significant chunk out of your opponents life. Elspeth makes him better. And Path to Exile doesn't stop Zoo from burning you. At least RWM negates some of it, eats 2 burn or one PTE/STP.

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Oh okay, I see your point. My only problem with that is, if you use Elspeth's second ability, you don't have RWM to block, and if they had a few guys they were holding back because RWM could block, they'll swing in and kill your Elspeth. That was my line of thinking in that case, but if your clearing the board and have Elspeth out, you're going to win regardless of RWM or not.

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While I think you're overdoing it on the Landstill blend, Jak, I like your approach. Basically, hybridizing the deck with Landstill more.

This makes me think that the better approach for my deck would be -2 Oblivion Ring, +2 Wrath of God. The deck cuts down hard on 3cc drops, so that part of the Counterbalance curve gets weakened, but picks up on the 4cc spot, which does actually improve some matchups. 2 WoG maindeck is actually rather sick, since Qasali often sac's to destroy artifacts/enchantments, overall the deck is threat light in comparison to other decks (+CA), a lone Tarmogoyf cast after a WoG can end games, WoG is just a house regardless, and WoG + Elspeth wins games. That seems absolutely sick, IMO.

U/W/g Plansewalker CounterTop
Kaezurthresh

Lands (19)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Creatures (10)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridgemage

Spells (31)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Jace Beleren
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Wrath of God

Sideboard (15)
1 Wrath of God
4 Path to Exile
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip

Funny part is, that's the same removal package maindeck that I run in my U/W Counterbalance Landstill list, except this has 1 less WoG. I'm hoping with 7 cantrips and 4 Top's, that the 19 land manabase is able to support 4 4cc spells in the maindeck. Only time will tell. The deck seems like it would be disgusting, though. Improved aggro matchups, while at the same time, improved on everything else too. Especially postboard. At least in theory. The 4cc stuff may be just a little too slow against the manabase aggression from decks like Canadian Thresh and Merfolk, but I'd really like to test it to find out. Anyone up for a few games on MWS?

@Hanni: I am actually kinda digging your decklist-please keep me informed as to how your testing goes (I would test it myself but I have no one to play with and I own a mac so no MWS for me :frown: ). Since you are moving towards a higher curve, you might want to consider spell snare over daze: you are more reliant on hitting land drops so daze might be hurting you a bit. Spell snare is nice too, because although it screws with your CB curve, it hits what your CB can't.

Just a thought.

I wouldn't cut Daze. Daze is crucial for resolving spells through, like an early Counterbalance, where Spell Snare isn't going to help. Hell, it even helps you resolve a WoG on turn 4 through an opponent's countermagic, if they are tapped out. Just seems like a bad move to cut Daze in a deck like this, especially since you won't have the U open to Snare when you truly need to. Spell Snare is a great card, but I think that this deck opts to play more removal in place of it; I don't see Spell Snare as a replacement for Daze, but rather as a replacement for something like Oblivion Ring. Since O Ring works better with Elspeth, I think that's the better route for me to go.

On a sidenote... would dropping 1 Ponder for 1 Jace be a good idea? This deck has it's ways of protecting Planeswalker's, 4/2/4 Brainstorm/Ponder/Top is probably sufficient, and 1 Jace would give the deck a pretty nice random draw engine. Plus, Jace can destract damage away from Elspeth, or vice versa. The only problem I see is that it's moving the curve too far up, which is probably going to cause manabase problems with only 19 lands. Thoughts on that? (Well, thoughts on the entire idea of board control CounterTop, but also about Jace too.)

@Hanni: yea I guess you are right on the daze-you will just have to use it differently than what I initially had in mind.

Jace might be an interesting idea-the deck is lacking the pure card advantage that standstill gives so he might be a fantastic. Either that or shackles?

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Oh okay, I see your point. My only problem with that is, if you use Elspeth's second ability, you don't have RWM to block, and if they had a few guys they were holding back because RWM could block, they'll swing in and kill your Elspeth. That was my line of thinking in that case, but if your clearing the board and have Elspeth out, you're going to win regardless of RWM or not.

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While I think you're overdoing it on the Landstill blend, Jak, I like your approach. Basically, hybridizing the deck with Landstill more.

This makes me think that the better approach for my deck would be -2 Oblivion Ring, +2 Wrath of God. The deck cuts down hard on 3cc drops, so that part of the Counterbalance curve gets weakened, but picks up on the 4cc drop spot, which does actually improve some matchups. 2 WoG maindeck is actually rather sick, since Qasali often sac's to destroy artifacts/enchantments, overall the deck is threat light in comparison to other decks, and WoG is just a house. With Elspeth MD, that looks absolutely sick.

U/W/g CounterTop
Kaezurthresh

Lands (19)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Creatures (10)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridgemage

Spells (31)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Wrath of God

Sideboard (15)
1 Wrath of God
4 Path to Exile
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip

Funny part is, that's the same removal package maindeck that I run in my U/W Counterbalance Landstill list, except it has 1 less WoG. I'm hoping with 7 cantrips and 4 Top's, that the 19 land manabase is able to support 4 4cc spells in the maindeck. Only time will tell. The deck seems like it would be disgusting, though. Improved aggro matchups, while at the same time, improved on everything else too. Especially postboard. At least in theory. The 4cc stuff may be just a little too slow against the manabase aggression from decks like Canadian Thresh and Merfolk, but I'd really like to test it to find out. Anyone up for a few games on MWS?

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The only problem I see with your list is that you can't capitalize on the tempo you gain from Daze. You run 8 creatures with 4 of those being quite weak on their own. The opponent can recover fine from it while you now set yourself back and can't cast Elsepth or Wrath until turn 5.

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The only problem I see with your list is that you can't capitalize on the tempo you gain from Daze. You run 8 creatures with 4 of those being quite weak on their own. The opponent can recover fine from it while you now set yourself back and can't cast Elsepth or Wrath until turn 5.

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I agree with the counterpoints of running Daze.

My line of thinking right now is that it's a necessary evil. As primarily an aggro/control deck, we really want the early tempo of Daze when casting stuff like Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance. It helps to resolve stuff early on, or keep problematic stuff off the table early on.

Since this deck only runs 4 4cc spells and isn't reliant on resolving those type of spells asap (i.e turn 4) like Landstill is, I think being set back a turn by Daze should be alright. However, the only way to truly find that out is to test the deck.

I really do like the concept of this build, though. CounterTop Board Control seems right up my alley, since U/W Counterbalance Landstill is my favorite deck.

In testing ~40 games w/ CT in the past week (against real opponents and not), I've been pretty unimpressed with Daze--which is odd, because it's one of my favorite MtG cards, period.

The thing is that Daze is a perfect tempo/aggro-control card and a bit out of place (for many reasons) in a control shell where the iterations of CT that having been piling up in this thread often straddle the line between aggro-control and control.

So Daze is a bit of a kind of schizophrenic card that pulls the deck one way or other. This said, I don't think Daze belongs in a deck with Elspeth, but it's hard to say these days. Hybridization makes black and white card analysis kinda passe.

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In testing ~40 games w/ CT in the past week (against real opponents and not), I've been pretty unimpressed with Daze--which is odd, because it's one of my favorite MtG cards, period.

The thing is that Daze is a perfect tempo/aggro-control card and a bit out of place (for many reasons) in a control shell where the iterations of CT that having been piling up in this thread often straddle the line between aggro-control and control.

So Daze is a bit of a kind of schizophrenic card that pulls the deck one way or other. This said, I don't think Daze belongs in a deck with Elspeth, but it's hard to say these days. Hybridization makes black and white card analysis kinda passe.

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I agree with this too, but I still think it's a necessary evil. I mean, we clearly need more countermagic protection than just FoW and Counterbalance. What do we run, then? Counterspell is clearly too slow, when we want to be curving out early (the reason to run Daze), and even holding open U early for Spell Snare seems so difficult with this curve (we don't run Nimble Mongoose as a 1 drop guy, we are pretty heavy in our 2cc and 4cc curve, etc).

While I agree with both Jak and Bardo, I'm just unsure of what would really be a good replacement, and whether or not the slight disynergy Daze offers to the deck is worth its offset in power.

Bardo, you were the one that recently told me that when given the choice between synergy or raw power, more often than not, raw power is better route. While I disagreed with you about that in my UGb Loam Control shell, I'm not sure if I do here; I just don't see a clear replacement for Daze.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I agree with the counterpoints of running Daze.

My line of thinking right now is that it's a necessary evil. As primarily an aggro/control deck, we really want the early tempo of Daze when casting stuff like Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance. It helps to resolve stuff early on, or keep problematic stuff off the table early on.

Since this deck only runs 4 4cc spells and isn't reliant on resolving those type of spells asap (i.e turn 4) like Landstill is, I think being set back a turn by Daze should be alright. However, the only way to truly find that out is to test the deck.

I really do like the concept of this build, though. CounterTop Board Control seems right up my alley, since U/W Counterbalance Landstill is my favorite deck.

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But do you need it? You are the control deck so do you need to cast your threats like Goyf early on? Maybe against stuff like aggro, but then you won't have to worry about forcing stuff through.

Clique is also awesome with hard counters that make you tap out, btw.

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But do you need it? You are the control deck so do you need to cast your threats like Goyf early on? Maybe against stuff like aggro, but then you won't have to worry about forcing stuff through.

Clique is also awesome with hard counters that make you tap out, btw.

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I suppose that is true. With 6 spot removal spells for aggro (StP/O Ring), 6 spot removal spells for artifacts/enchantments (Qasali/O Ring), and 2 mass sweeps for aggro, allowing early stuff to resolve and allowing my early stuff to get countered might not be such a big deal. The control aspect allows me to regain control of any early shenanigans from my opponent.

I guess it's really a matter of getting down and dirty and playtesting the hell out of the deck to figure out what would be the best route. Regardless, my question still stands: if I am to replace Daze, what is a truly suitable replacement? I think the deck still needs some protection in that spot; I'd be inclined to say Thoughtseize would be the perfect replacement if I was in black, but alas, I'm not. 4c is also not the route to go here, since 19 lands and a 4c manabase are really going to cause problems resolving 4cc spells against any kind of resistance. Spell Snare also costs 1cc, but constantly keeping U open to wait to use it seems like it may slow the deck down too much, even if it is a great tempo generator.

I'm just really unsure of the best route till I test it, and unless someone suggests something amazing, or explains to me (in detail, because I'm unconvinced right now) how Spell Snare would be the best replacement, I'm going to try Daze first.

See, that's the thing. I don't want to slow the deck down too much. Elspeth, WoG, O Ring, and possibly Jace if I run it, already slow the deck down alot. I want something that will help me maintain some speed early on, so I don't get steamrolled by decks that are too fast (like Canadian Thresh). Daze is the best way I know how to defend against something like that, but I guess Spell Snare wouldn't be so bad either. Depends on the early draw, I guess, but that probably means playing differently; waiting to cast Goyf/Qasali/Counterbalance till I have 3 land drops, for example. I guess that makes sense now. The problem is: how do I go about changing that around without messing up the Counterbalance curve a bit?

The way I'm really looking at Elspeth is as a finisher, not a turn 4 play. Elspeth to my build is kind of like Mystic Enforcer to the old white Threshold decks. What it does for me, when I do finally play it, is win me the game. Getting it down turn 4, if I'm in a position to win the game with it, sounds great. When I'm not, it's likely it may not get to come down until as late as turn 6 or even 7. Who knows. So Wrath of God is the real reason to not run Daze, because it sets me back a full turn on casting it, but as a 2-of, is that really worth not running Daze for?

However, I'm thinking that you two are right; Daze might not be the best option. I'm only running 4 4cc spells, but against aggro, resolving a WoG asap is really important.

The other thing is, how much does Daze improve/unimprove the deck when it brings in its sideboard options? Against Goblins, going kamikaze with both BEB and PtE (with StP) seems like a damn fine move, with Daze just furthering that tempo assault. Against other aggro, StP and PtE backed by Daze also seems like a great way to slow those decks down until I can establish a dominant Goyf or Counterbalance, or drop Elspeth.

Instead of going back and forth with myself, I really think that just testing it is going to yield me better results than discussing theory. You all can continue to post your opinions on the matter, as well as your suggestive replacements, and I will consider them.

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I really don't like Clique in here. As a 3cc 3/1, it's going to be horrible on defense for protecting Elspeth, and the flying is largely a non-issue since I do run Elspeth. It's abilities are great, but are they really needed in here? I really don't think I need the aggro part of the card, and 3 mana for a psuedo discard effect seems like it would slow the deck down even further.

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EDIT: Just FYI, I played a few test games on MWS, and the Daze thing was largely a non-issue. Dazing doesn't really matter much with Elspeth (consider that old white Threshold ran Daze alongside Mystic Enforcer), and 2 Wrath of God's is no reason to not run Daze. Honestly, it makes just as much sense to run Daze in here as it does in those versions that are heavy in 3cc spells (RWM's and Trygon's, etc). Considering that you typically Daze turns 1 and 2, they set you back the same amount of time casting those (i.e 1 turn). Now, if you want to debate on whether or not Daze is good in those versions either, is another story. However, I found myself having absolutely no problems being set back in land drops. The large number of 1cc and 2cc spells largely negated that; although it prevented me from casting O Rings, Jace, Elspeth, and WoG right away, I had plenty of other spells that I was able to play before needing to cast one of those 3cc/4cc spells. I'll test it a bit more, but for me, I'm pretty much convinced that Daze is actually correct.

Also, the 19 land manabase has been more than sufficient with 3 3cc spells and 4 4cc spells maindeck, at least against decks that don't attack the manabase. 4/2/4 Brainstorm/Ponder/Top with 19 lands, especially with the manabase being so stable, was great every game so far. I have yet to actually use Jace, but I'm thinking I'm actually going to like it when I do. It gives me a pretty cool draw engine if I get to play it, it ups my 3cc spell count just a little bit more for Counterbalance (mildly relevant), and overall seems like it has great synergy with Top (kinda like Confidant, but in this case, not to negate lifeloss, but rather to chomp through the deck). I'm going to edit the decklist I posted a few posts up to include Jace.

I'm also going to call the deck U/W/g Planeswalker CounterTop to distinguish it from the mainstream lists.

Overall, I'm very satisfied so far. Dropping Elspeth turn 4 (when I didn't Daze), with a 4/5 Tarmogoyf in play, was friggin awesome. Swing for 7, go. Elspeth going straight to 5 counters usually puts it out of destroy range for a turn (since I do run sufficient removal), and swinging for another 7 the following turn is sometimes game (turn 5 goldfish). Either way, I pushed through 14 points of damage, regardless if my opponent had chump blockers or not. Elspeth is really, really good in this shell. I hope others try it.

Plus keep in mind that with the amount of removal, Elspeth is really good as a stand-alone threat; very few times when you actually are able to drop Elspeth, will the opponent be able to recover. It's kinda the same effect it has in Landstill: if the board is clear and you drop Elspeth, the opponent has a very limited amount of time to find an answer before you simply win. Even Tarmogoyf doesn't quite have this effect. Absolutely bonkers, guys.

Hanni, how are you doing vs Zoo, Merfolks, Goblins, Bant survival?

I see your list a bit slow to fight those decks decks. Is all your removal and sweepers enough to stop them? Maybe yes vs Zoo but i dont see WoG stoping merfolks or goblins at all.

And what about Ichorid? I dont see even any hate in your SB for it.

I like the combo of tarmo + elspeth, but RWM + elspeth is still superior. 12 life for me and -12 for you!

About Daze, I prefer to always run it. Yes, its bad late game, but we always tap out turn 2 3. Having a counter backup when tapped out wins more games than drawing counters when they dont matter, especially having tops, ponders and brainstorms to prevent that.

IF the list evolves to remove cantrips and be control turn 2 3 before droping bombs, then we could replace it, but while you want to cast goyf or counterbalance or qasali early, daze is good.

With that being said, without any mana denial strategy i think the optimal run is 3 Daze MD, becouse i always lose the dice roll :P

You could try:
-1 Ponder -1 Daze
+2 Spell snare

It worked good for me when i played them. I use RWM now. (Too much red in my meta)

I haven't tested this but iif you want to try crazy things, instead of spell snare put Dauntless Escort, WoG and keeping a Goyf should be wonders. (The problem is that they use vedalken shakles on it and that it makes the list even slower i guess)

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Hanni, how are you doing vs Zoo, Merfolks, Goblins, Bant survival?

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I feel like my aggro matchups are pretty good, especially postboard.

The deck uses early tempo with FoW, Daze, StP, and Goyf to slow down their early assault, just like "Threshold" normally does.

The Zoo, Goblins, and Merfolk matchups are played in tempo fashion initially both preboard and postboard. You keep them off their aggro early to stabilize, and beat down with that tempo with Goyfs, Qasali's, and Elspeth's while you can. Once that plan fails, if it does, you have the backup plan of WoG to sweep away uncontrolable situations. Postboard, it's alot easier to achieve the tempo strategy, since you significantly increase the number of 1cc spot removal spells. Massing up 1/1 tokens with Elspeth while hitting them with tons of spot removal works really well. It prevents them from ever really swinging in if they do manage to get a few guys to stick, and then flying overhead with a single token clocks them before they clock you. Goyf is a great all against these decks, giving you time to find more removal while they dig for theirs (or dig for their unblockability in Merfolk's case).

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Against Zoo, a resolved CounterTop early enough typically shuts them down if they don't have a Qasali in play prior to (in which case you'd wait to lay down CounterTop). Rather than rely on RWM's to give you additional gas later on (since you won't always see CounterTop), you use the extra removal to keep their guys off the table and smack them with Goyfs, or sit back with Goyf on defense for as long as possible while Elspeth makes a bunch of 1/1 tokens. R/g/w Naya Sligh is a different story, since they run so much burn; you really need CounterTop for that matchup. Against Zoo though, they don't have enough reach if their guys don't do enough damage. Preboard it's a decent matchup, postboard you get Path to Exile in place of Oblivion Ring, and I'd drop 2 Qasali for 2 more Path to Exile, since keeping them off of guys completely wrecks their strategy, regardless if they run Sylvan Library or bring in Jitte, and 8 1cc spot removal spells does a great job of this. Again, the excessive spot removal + massive 1/1 token plan + flying plan works really well.

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Against Goblins, the heavy cantrip 4/2/4 Brainstorm/Ponder/Top engine, with the stable manabase of 8 fetchlands, and 4 basics, makes their manabase attack only a minor problem. Ramping to 4 lands isn't that difficult, WoG out of nowhere (they won't expect it) punishes them for overextending, and then you beat down with either a really large Goyf, drop an Elspeth to dominate the board, or both. Make sure Qasali (and O Ring) answer Vial, because Goblins strives off of its CiP abilities. Decent matchup preboard. Postboard, you drop 4 Counterbalances for 4 Blue Elemental Blast, and 2 Oblivion Rings come out for 1 Path to Exile and 1 WoG. 9 1cc spot removal spells and 3 WoG keep them off of creatures, regardless of CiP abilities or not (unless they are chaining Ringleaders, but you still have the ability to swing with Goyf and/or Elspeth during the back and forth removaling process). Again, the excessive spot removal + massive 1/1 token plan + flying plan works really well.

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Against Merfolk, it's a little tougher. They apply pressure to the manabase, so fetching at the right time, getting basics into play, and cantripping for land correctly, is essential. If you don't stabilize the manabase early, you're going to run into serious problems. Luckily, they are a slower aggro deck than both Goblins and Zoo, so you should have time to do so.

Their ability to sneak damage through with unblockability/tapping is problematic, so make sure to try and keep the lords of the table as best as possible. It's the damage that they can sneak in from time to time that will chip away at you if you're not careful.

Keep an eye out for Standstill, this card is a must counter (or must sac for Qasali).

As long as Vial isn't in play, getting CounterTop active is really good. It shuts down most of their deck, and either buys you the time you need to find enough removal, or puts the opponent too far behind to come back once you remove enough of their guys. Have Qasali (or O Ring) answer Vial if you plan on using CounterTop, since Vial makes CounterTop limited in usefulness. As long as you draw enough removal, you'll do okay. If you don't draw enough removal, they will outclass your aggro/Elspeth.

Slightly difficult matchup preboard. Postboard, it gets alot better. You get to drop O Ring for Path to Exile. This is huge because it is alot easier to use 1cc spot removal against them. I'd also cut 1 Counterbalance and 1 Qasali, even though both of those cards are good against them, for 2 more Path to Exiles. More 1cc spot removal is going to be better than trying to assemble CounterTop (slow) or destroy Vial. Vial is less necessary to remove against Merfolk than it is against Goblins, since they lack the amazing CiP abilities. The mana ramp is only problematic if they are chaining Standstills. Most of your countermagic will battle with their countermagic (or Standstills), so your countermagic still useful even if they have Vial in play.

10 1cc spot removal spells makes killing guys through their manabase attack so much easier, gives you a greater ability to keep the opponent from sneaking damage through by keeping them off the table in the first place, and allows the deck to play the tempo role so much better. Their lack of removal and generally slower creature production makes inexpensive spot removal so good against them. 2 WoG is enough, because they will be slow to swarm early, and you won't be able to play WoG as your reset button until late if needed anyway, because of their manabase attack. Again, the excessive spot removal + massive 1/1 token plan + flying plan works really well. Goyf is exceptional on defense against them too, when they cannot sneak damage through.

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Bant Survival is a totally different animal, since it's a very similar deck. If they resolve Survival and you cannot destroy it before they get Wonder in the yard, you're pretty much screwed. You now have no way of blocking any of their guys, making any defense strategy with Goyf and/or Elspeth impossible. The matchup basically ends up being a race between their Survival and your CounterTop. If they get an activate Survival into play before you get an active CounterTop, you more than likely lost. If you get an active CounterTop into play before they get an active Survival, you more than likely won. When neither deck sees either engine, you have the advantage by playing a more consistent version with less dead cards. If they don't have flying, Elspeth is a house. Their slower creature production (without Survival), in comparison to the other aggro strategies, makes chump blocking with 1/1's more effective. Against ground stalls, Elspeth is our bread and butter like Wonder is for them. I tend to drop the Wrath of God's for Krosan Grip's, since I gain less CA with WoG in comparison with other aggro decks, and removing Survival is mandatory.

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I see your list a bit slow to fight those decks decks. Is all your removal and sweepers enough to stop them? Maybe yes vs Zoo but i dont see WoG stoping merfolks or goblins at all.

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The more removal against aggro, the better. The only matchups where WoG is less than spectacular are against aggro matchups that attack the manabase, like Canadian Thresh and Merfolk, where they are still very good if you survive until the deep mid game. For those particular matchups, I keep my WoG count to 2. Against mass swarm decks like Elves and Goblins, I go up to 3 WoG. Against Zoo, I feel that 8 1cc spot removal spells and 2 WoG is sufficient since CounterTop is such a beating against them. Against Bant Survival, Krosan Grip is necessary for dealing with Survival.

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And what about Ichorid? I dont see even any hate in your SB for it.

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I answer Ichorid in here similar to how I answer Ichorid with U/W Counterbalance Landstill. The only matchup I'd bring graveyard hate in against is Ichorid, so running graveyard hate is narrow to one specific matchup. Rather than waste space for one matchup that I won't see very often, that's already relatively bad, I go with a more vague approach. The RFG of 4 Swords and 4 Path help me keep them off of PImps and Ichorid's, disrupting their ability to effectively discard for dredge, attack, or sac to Therapy/make tokens. Meddling Mage naming Cabal Therapy and Dread Return keeps them from sac'ing Narcomoeba's, Ichorid's, and PImp's to rape my hand/reanimate/make tokens. If they aren't making tokens, they aren't killing me. In the meanwhile, FoW, Daze, and even Counterbalance help me prevent them from using their super accelerators like LED (for LED versions), Breakthrough, etc. Goyf is a great wall for opposing Ichorid's, and if I effectively remove their guys, swings through in an attempt to kill them before they rebuild and kill me (this is much more effective for this deck than Landstill). Wrath of God has the ability to kill my own guys to blow up their Bridges, but can also handle any of their tokens that slipped through the cracks. I tend to drop 2 Elspeth, 2 Oblivion Ring, and 4 Counterbalance for 4 Path to Exile and 4 Meddling Mage. I keep Qasali in because an early Qasali prevents the opponent from swinging in with Ichorid in fear of losing their Bridges.

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I like the combo of tarmo + elspeth, but RWM + elspeth is still superior. 12 life for me and -12 for you!

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That would actually be +6 for me and -6 for you per swing. RWM isn't bad, but again, a 3cc 3/4 just doesn't do it for me, lifegain or not. It's rather slow for a smaller body, and life gain doesn't actually change the game state unless your trading with (killing) opposing aggro, or beating them in a life race (i.e you attacking them, you holding no blockers, them attacking you). Otherwise, if you sit back on defense and they sit back on defense, the game state isn't changing. Goyf can create this kind of ground stall too, but at least he's a 2cc 4/5 (typically) when you aren't faced in these kind of situations (i.e more effecient cost/power ratio). Again, that's just me. I recognize RWM as a good card, I just don't want to use him.

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About Daze, I prefer to always run it. Yes, its bad late game, but we always tap out turn 2 3. Having a counter backup when tapped out wins more games than drawing counters when they dont matter, especially having tops, ponders and brainstorms to prevent that.

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In my testing, Daze was great.

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IF the list evolves to remove cantrips and be control turn 2 3 before droping bombs, then we could replace it, but while you want to cast goyf or counterbalance or qasali early, daze is good.

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If I were to drop cantrips and Daze, I'd sooner play U/W Counterbalance Landstill, as it would be a superior deck.

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With that being said, without any mana denial strategy i think the optimal run is 3 Daze MD, becouse i always lose the dice roll :P

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Excess Daze get pitched to FoW like they always have. Daze is only truly effective in the early game, and 4 increases the likelihood of seeing them early. Like they always have, they pitch to FoW later on, or we simply cantrip/shuffle them away. They add to the 2cc curve for Counterbalance, which I appreciate. 3 could be the correct number, but I've been pleased so far.

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You could try:
-1 Ponder -1 Daze
+2 Spell snare

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While that does maintain a solid Counterbalance curve, I don't want to go below 4/2/4 Brainstorm/Ponder/Top with 19 lands because I run 3 3cc spells and 4 4cc spells maindeck, with a few more 3cc and 4cc stuff in the sideboard. I'm unconvinced that Spell Snare is going to be used as effectively in here as opposed to something like Tempo Thresh; my decks higher mana curve wants me to spend most of my mana sources early. Holding U open with Spell Snare, in the early game, isn't something I feel that I'm going to be able to consistently do.

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It worked good for me when i played them. I use RWM now. (Too much red in my meta)

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As long as you're not using a large amount of 3cc spells, you should be able to have U open a little easier than me, though even still, I think Spell Snares are better left for more lower-curved tempo-oriented decks. However, like most things, that's just my opinion and personal preference.

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I haven't tested this but iif you want to try crazy things, instead of spell snare put Dauntless Escort, WoG and keeping a Goyf should be wonders. (The problem is that they use vedalken shakles on it and that it makes the list even slower i guess)

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I don't have conflicts with WoG and my own creature base, because I'm not casting WoG when I don't need to. So running something that's horrible, except for in very rare situations, seems suboptimal. I do appreciate the off-the-wall suggestion though, since Planeswalker CounterTop is essentially an off-the-wall idea.

I genuinly feel you have some innovative ideas relating to your build Hanni, you are correct in you assesments for the most part but I wonder if you would benefit much more running a more black centric color splash rather than White. You gain both a very powerful threat: Tombstalker, and a card that I feel bridges the gap when it comes to the Daze v. Snare issue (Thoughtseize). With no wastelands I doubt a 4 color manabase will be too difficult to support. It would probably be worth it.

The Black vs. White-splash disussion is the most interesting to me right now. Without applying this analysis to the metagame, different card choices are:

Black-Splash:
* Dark Confidant
* Tombstalker
* sb: Duress (anti-combo/control)
* sb: Engineered Plague (anti-tribal-aggro-control)
- Ghastly Demise over Swords to Plowshares
? Pernicious Deed
? Planar Void

White-Splash
* Qasali Pridemage
* Rhox Warm Monk
* sb: Meddling Mage / Gattock Teeg
? Wrath of God
? Elspeth

Using my U/w/g list as a template for U/b/g

4 Brainstorm
4 Divining Top
3 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Snare / Daze (?)

4 Ghastly Demise

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Duress
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus

Seems f'ing tight.

Nine times out of 10, Ghastly Demise serves the same purpose as StP and I'd rather have Duress vs. Combo than MMage. Tombstalker is a better creature than RWM and it's sort of a bumb between Pridemage and Bob.

My experiences have found that you almost never need all the additional SB hate versus combo, and you'd be better served improving other matchups in the sideboard. I'd like to have 4 Firespout in the sideboard to deal with Merfolk and I'd strongly consider sideboarding extra spot removal to deal with Tombstalker if Eva Green or Team America are in the metagame.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

The Black vs. White-splash disussion is the most interesting to me right now. Without applying this analysis to the metagame...

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Assuming a "perfect" metagame, of the sort one would expect from a large, GP- or SCG-style tournament, I think that the analysis settles out a bit differently. It's easy to see one thing in a vacuum, but if we assume that the biggest deck types are going to be Counterbalance Thresh, Merfolk, Zoo, and maybe Canadian Thresh or some sort of control, things look different. For example:

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Originally Posted by Bardo

Black-Splash:
* Dark Confidant
* Tombstalker
* sb: Duress (anti-combo/control)
* sb: Engineered Plague (anti-tribal-aggro-control)
- Ghastly Demise over Swords to Plowshares
? Pernicious Deed
? Planar Void

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In decks running lots of lords, Engineered Plague is pretty frickin useless. You basically pay three mana to negate three mana the other guy spent, but you do absolutely nothing to his team. Against a deck like Merfolk, which runs ten to twelve lords, Engineered Plague is a joke.

I've always liked Bob as a way to refill my hand in the mid- to late-game with this deck, since Counterbalance isn't a perfect lock and it helps to not run out of steam. That said, Zoo and Jitte-wielding Merfolk can dispatch Bob with ease, and he dies to Fire and Bolt out of Canadian Thresh or any number of removal spells/sweepers out of our hypothetical control deck. Pridemage at least has the option of getting rid of something dangerous or allowing your Tarmogoyfs to punch through on the ground. That said, if Bob survives for any length of time, wonderful things start to happen. YMMV.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

White-Splash
* Qasali Pridemage
* Rhox Warm Monk
* sb: Meddling Mage / Gattock Teeg
? Wrath of God
? Elspeth

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I'm inclined to say that RWM is a better "answer" to aggro than Engineered Plague. On the defense against Zoo, it will often completely blank two of their smaller creatures (killing one and neutralizing damage from another with lifelink). Against Merfolk, it slows the other guy's clock down (albeit not by much). Pridemage kills Vials dead, making your Counterbalances better. On the other hand, Mage and Teeg are both pretty mediocre answers to storm and Wrath is too slow when compared to Firespout, which is basically the same thing. I've never tried Elspeth in Thresh before but it sounds interesting.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

Using my U/w/g list as a template for U/b/g

4 Brainstorm
4 Divining Top
3 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Snare / Daze (?)

4 Ghastly Demise

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Duress
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus

Seems f'ing tight.

Nine times out of 10, Ghastly Demise serves the same purpose as StP and I'd rather have Duress vs. Combo than MMage. Tombstalker is a better creature than RWM and it's sort of a bumb between Pridemage and Bob.

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Tombstalker and Demise both in the same deck seems weak, especially when you don't have any particularly efficient ways to fill the graveyard early. Let's assume you start off strong with a turn one fetch, Ponder (two cards). You play a Counterbalance on turn two, but need to throw a Force down to get it to stick (three cards). On turn four, you Brainstorm in response to a Counterbalance trigger (four cards). On turn five, you remove your graveyard from the game and stick Tombstalker. You're now incapable of killing Tarmogoyf, and you didn't stick any pressure at all for four turns. That might not be an issue in the mirror or against control, but against Zoo or Merfolk you've probably been hemorrhaging life to "The Lords Attack!" or "3/3 for one, 4/5 for two" in the meantime.

Both of those cards really want you to be running more cantrips than you have, and resolving a single Tombstalker will often turn your removal off for several turns at least. It may be a huge, evasive creature, but Elspeth can throw better guys into the air in a more relevant time frame and without requiring you to go out of your way to do anything. Plus, she's very difficult to get rid of for most decks, and will often draw some heat off of you when the opponent goes into Panic Mode ("Ach! Hans, run! It's the flying 7/8 Tarmogoyf!").

If I had to look at a non-white color to use, it would be red. Blasts for Merflok and the mirror, Firespout for aggro in general, and potentially Ajani against control seems pretty hot. And yes, I'd run four colors: Ink-Treader Thresholdilim.deck.

Are Landstill and Counter-Top breeding with each other? I've seen some LS lists trying to run Counter-Top, while now seeing Counter-Top list grab some of Landstill goodies (Elspeth, Wog).

Are these decks going to merge or something?

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Are Landstill and Counter-Top breeding with each other? I've seen some LS lists trying to run Counter-Top, while now seeing Counter-Top list grab some of Landstill goodies (Elspeth, Wog).

Are these decks going to merge or something?

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Lets examine Nassifs list -4 bob -2 sower -2 trygon predator +2 WOG +4 EE +2 vendicate

looks almost like landstill without the awsome enchantments (Humility/Standstill)

They bleed because they are naturaly the same deck type with the same goal, countertop uses countertopgoyf as a crutch for the deck and landstill's crutch is its huge bombs that cost 4 mana. Both have differant weaknesses, countertop is better in combo metagames, landstill beats decks that run creatures, thats pretty much the summation of it.