[Deck] Next Level Threshold

hi everyone,
i would share my list that i'm playing now

3 tarmogoyf
3 grim lavamancer
2 vendilion
2 trinket mage
1 phyrexian dreadnought

3 pfire
3 bolt

4 brainstorm
4 fow
2 jace the mind
1 ponder
2 spell snare
2 spell pierce
4 stifle

1 sensei
1 e.e.

7 fetch
3 wasteland
4 grove of b.
2 tropical i.
4 volcanic i.
1 academy
2 island

why i did some choices:

1- pfire: i the huge combo in this format! bit miracle and all midrange deck
2- dreadnought: he is the silver bullet...when you need to win the race against nemesi this guy is the best one, and i can find him easy with triket. also i choose him for maximize stifle in some MU :tongue:
3- grim lavamancer: he makes advantage cards with trinket, pfire and jace....but i'm not sure 100% for play him because is very grave greedy and needs and ask a lot of mana with pfire

all other spells are more or less the same of other deck and i not going to explain them

the only slot which i'm not sure, as i said above, are 3grim lavamancer

any advice?

When I saw this thread active thought someone was discussing Dack Fayden (new planeswalker from Conspiracy) here. To me, it looked the best place to start. It is quite aggressively costed, digs for any engines we might have, help us deal with equipment, and even the ultimate might be good if we use cards like Bolt and Fire/Ice.
So, here's a first draft I based on sdematt list:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice

2 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce

2 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fires

2 Dack Fayden
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Island
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

SB:
4 Force of Will
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Sulfur Elemental
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Grafdiggers Cage

What do you think?

Taking a queue from BBD's midrange list and switching out the white stuff with good green cards and adding a land (because Punishing Fire is expensive compared to StP) gives a pretty polished strong list. Not too sure about the sideboard (which of course suffers under lack of white). Beat UWR midrange and BUG Delver quite comfortably yesterday (2-0). Against UR I think it's pretty good if piloted correctly: I played disgustingly bad with a Jitte in play against PoP, lost 0-2 but both games were very winnable. 4 Treasure Cruise was not a problem, though I could see myself switching out 1 for a Dig to find Punishing Fire and Grove (though I never had trouble finding either). Would very much like to hear if someone's testing something similar to this! The list of BBD I'm talking about is http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=76124

Creature (10)
4x Tarmogoyf
2x True-Name Nemesis
4x Young Pyromancer

Instant (18)
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Lightning Bolt
4x Punishing Fire
1x Pyroblast
2x Spell Pierce

Sorcery (12)
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
4x Treasure Cruise

Artifact (1)
1x Engineered Explosives

Land (19)
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Tropical Island
4x Volcanic Island

Sideboard (15)
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Krosan Grip
2x Pithing Needle
2x Pyroblast
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sylvan Library
2x Umezawa's Jitte

I think a Goyf/volcanic fallout strategy is worth trying in the maindeck since Pyroclasm/Fallout is basically Terminus.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I think a Goyf/volcanic fallout strategy is worth trying in the maindeck since Pyroclasm/Fallout is basically Terminus.

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Worth a try! I really like the catch-all EE though, as it takes out opposing Tarmogoyfs (Durward suggested this) and we don't have much problem with the opposing board flooding anyway. It's extremely versatile: it's a main board answer to counter-balance, and it takes out pro red and even TNNs.

As i said earlier i tested a similar list. I first had 3 engineered explosives in the board, but i felt that is missed creatures on the board so i decided to run that 2/2 split between EE and Pyroclasm. I used it to assume board control and after that land a goyf/tnn. I do, however, think that it can ruin plans with the pyromancer. Thats said i cant ignore the fact that Pyroclasm is really awesome.

Also i jammed in a single Dack Fayden. Aside from fueling cruises/Dtt it also has synergy with PFire. And in one game i "stole" a sword of fire/ice from a DnT player.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

As i said earlier i tested a similar list. I first had 3 engineered explosives in the board, but i felt that is missed creatures on the board so i decided to run that 2/2 split between EE and Pyroclasm. I used it to assume board control and after that land a goyf/tnn. I do, however, think that it can ruin plans with the pyromancer. Thats said i cant ignore the fact that Pyroclasm is really awesome.

Also i jammed in a single Dack Fayden. Aside from fueling cruises/Dtt it also has synergy with PFire. And in one game i "stole" a sword of fire/ice from a DnT player.

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I'll try these Pyro things!

Haaa that's cute! May be good at fuelling TC but I really didn't feel like it was an issue. Post board against UWR I was pretty comfortable killing their ONE semi-relevant threat (Batterskull) with Ancient Grudge, but stealing it might be pretty good too ;-D.

This is what I'm trying:

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

2 Fire // Ice
4 Brainstorm
3 Pyroclasm
3 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Dig Through Time


1 Academy Ruins
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

This is what I'm trying:

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

2 Fire // Ice
4 Brainstorm
3 Pyroclasm
3 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Dig Through Time


1 Academy Ruins
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills

-Matt

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I would opt for 4 TNN and 3 Goyf. The list feels best at control the board and leading TNN to victory. Goyf was easily blocked/removed and often only served as a chump blocker.
Jace is nice. Same goes for DTT.
I also tried Loam, but i often didnt reach the point where i wanted to use it. The game was mostly already determined.
I like the SCM and lavamancers. I am not to sure if i'd want maindeck 5 sweepers, but i have lot spells based decks in my meta. Id defenitly want it in my board. Academy Ruins might be to cute. A split between a total of 6 spell pierce, spell snare and counterspell seems nice to.

Pre khans my list was:
3 grim lavamancer
3 goyf
3 tnn
1 clique
4 fow
3 spell pierce
2 spell snare
1 counterspell
3 lightning bolt
3 punishing fire
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 jace
1 dack fayden
4 grove
2 island
1 mountain
1 forest
2 volc
2 trop
4 scalding tarn
2 wooded
2 misty
3 wasteland

Board
1 grafdiggers cage
2 surgical extraction
2 krosan grip
2 pyroclasm
2 engineered explosives
2 flusterstorm
2 pyroblast
2 pithing needle

Recall pyro will kill your own tnns.

How has Grim Lavamancer turned out? It seems a little excessive when you could be playing Treasure Cruise and Young Pyromancer and have a threat base immune to Chalice on 1. Plus, our EE on 1 is a massacre. We already have a huge card advantage in the Punishing Fire engine, and with 4 copies and enough cantrips finding it is ezpz.

@bobmans Do you have a list of the pre-Khans thing you ran that was similar to my more beat-down list?

EDIT: Oh, discarding Punishing Fire to Dack Fayden is pretty good, if maybe a bit mana intensive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by edahl

How has Grim Lavamancer turned out? It seems a little excessive when you could be playing Treasure Cruise and Young Pyromancer and have a threat base immune to Chalice on 1. Plus, our EE on 1 is a massacre. We already have a huge card advantage in the Punishing Fire engine, and with 4 copies and enough cantrips finding it is ezpz.

@bobmans Do you have a list of the pre-Khans thing you ran that was similar to my more beat-down list?

EDIT: Oh, discarding Punishing Fire to Dack Fayden is pretty good, if maybe a bit mana intensive.

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More beatdown list? Nah, the thing that makes the list more beatdown is Treasure Cruise. The list i posted above was the final list i played. Between that and classical RUG Threshold there was nothing more. What made the above list strong was the amount of Countermagic paired with Bolt/Fire. I think the balance was pretty good and it played out well as a Mid/Long game control list. The weakest link was probably Tarmogoyf. Mostly Grim Lavamancer put more pressure on the opponent (kinda weird, but true). Lavamancer is a must answer, kind of the same role as Young Pyromancer. With either Cruise/DTT the Lavamancer loses value. Indeed EE/Pyroclasm kills it to, but either Grim Lavamancer gets killed right on the spot, or it connects shooting down 1 or 2 creatures and dies after being removed or is used as a chump blocker. People always seem to be scared/worried about Lavamancer, and for good reason. I see EE/Pyro strictly as a panic button in case of decks like Elves, Dredge, EntreatAngels. Mostly vs Delver or DnT it is not even needed since Bolt/PFire/Counter magic already puts enough control on the board and TNN does some heavy lifting aswell.

Maybe Cruise puts this list in the right direction of being more aggresive while maintaining a solid disruptive package and we can truly call this, Next Level'ed' ********.

I mean, reasonably, you're playing a very removal heavy deck and you're trying to sweep and then swing in with Goyf and whatnot. Jace can help seal the game, recurring EE, or just TNN. But, recall, you can only play Pyro when you're behind or have Goyf on board. Your TNN's die to your Pyro sweepers. If I were running Top in this deck, I'd run the heck out of Bonfire of the Damned.

Firce/Ice might be reasonable to cut for, say, Counterspell or even just REB. Cruise is harder on the graveyard than Dig, and we're the type of deck that can support Dig.

I'll run my list tomorrow at the weekly and let you guys know how it went.

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Cruise is harder on the graveyard than Dig, and we're the type of deck that can support Dig.

I'll run my list tomorrow at the weekly and let you guys know how it went.

-Matt

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This isn't true! Treasure cruise just happens to give you the option of being cast for 1. Of anything tc is easier to run as it gives an extra card to for the graveyard (and value off Pyromancer).

I also think we should be running 4 pf and negates over counterspell (as we are mowing down creatures). Durward suggested this and it makes sense to me/worked as intended in testing and a local tourney.

Cool! Looking forward to it

I think the NLT (RUG control) of the future will incorporate some kind of abuse of Punishing Fire/Dack Fayden/Loam recursion. The synergy between these three, plus Wasteland, Treasure Cruise, Noxious Revival, and using Intuition as a tutor for missing parts has a lot of potential. The only problem with Dack is he doesn't do much on his own. You certainly need Goyf/TNN as a wall.

Here's a jumping off point:

4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

2 Dack Fayden
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Ponder
2 Treasure Cruise
1 Intuition
1 Life From the Loam
1 Noxious Revival

2 Engineered Explosives

4 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Island

Sideboard:
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Pyroclasm

Intuition gets you:

Any combination of P. Fire, Grove, + Loam
Wasteland + Loam
Any 2-of + Noxious Revival
- Treasure Cruise
- EE
- Dack
- Surgical/Graffdigger's
- Grip/Grudge

Looks like URBG PyroLoam.
I like the idea.

When it comes to the durdly loam build (pretty cool!) Gerry Thompson just published an article about a version of it. I wouldn't be surprised if going all in on the control plan would the right thing to do if you want to take it in that direction http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ng-Durdle.html

I just realized that the midrange list I modelled my list on is Stoneblade, so it's like a Temur "Stoneblade," which seems like a quite different direction to take NLT

4th place 82 player tournament:


Creatures [10]
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants [23]
1 Flusterstorm
1 Misdirection
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
3 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt

Sorceries [7]
1 Forked Bolt
2 Firespout
4 Ponder

Enchantments [1]
1 Sylvan Library

Lands [19]
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn

1 Ancient Grudge
1 Blood Moon
1 Firespout
2 Flusterstorm
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction


This deck is definitely more mid-range oriented than RUG because it plays basic lands instead of Wastelands, additional counterspells rather than Stifle, and DTT instead of Mongoose.

I don't like the PFire approach with EE because it is too late-game oriented for a Bolt deck. White and black also provide spells for a dedicated control deck than red and green. Groves don't add blue mana and that's a deal breaker.

Personally, I have been playing an almost identical list to the above since the banning of TC and I have been loving it. A nice thing about this deck is that people seem to expect Daze and play as if we had it. My list plays 2 Snapcasters instead of Flusterstorm and Misdirection, 3 Sudden Shock instead of Forked Bolt and the two Firespout, and a 4th Misty Rainforest instead of the 3rd Island. My sideboard is also slightly different and plays Rough // Tumble over Firespout and a couple of TNN as well. I find Sudden Shock to be much superior to Forked Bolt when playing a reactive role.

That's a nice list. Reminds me of when I played NLT during the Misstep era -- and got stomped by Aggro Loam all the time. DTT could be very powerful here.

For me, though, the question would be: why this deck over Miracles or Gold Digger? This seems like a hedge between the two. Nonetheless, I'm itching to try it out because it's more my playstyle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

4th place 82 player tournament:

snip

This deck is definitely more mid-range oriented than RUG because it plays basic lands instead of Wastelands, additional counterspells rather than Stifle, and DTT instead of Mongoose.

I don't like the PFire approach with EE because it is too late-game oriented for a Bolt deck. White and black also provide spells for a dedicated control deck than red and green. Groves don't add blue mana and that's a deal breaker.

Personally, I have been playing an almost identical list to the above since the banning of TC and I have been loving it. A nice thing about this deck is that people seem to expect Daze and play as if we had it. My list plays 2 Snapcasters instead of Flusterstorm and Misdirection, 3 Sudden Shock instead of Forked Bolt and the two Firespout, and a 4th Misty Rainforest instead of the 3rd Island. My sideboard is also slightly different and plays Rough // Tumble over Firespout and a couple of TNN as well. I find Sudden Shock to be much superior to Forked Bolt when playing a reactive role.

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Can you elaborate on your decision to play Rough / Tumble over Firespout? Is it just because of Daze/Pierce and Port/Wasteland?

I like Sudden Shock as well, but I think it was better when there were tons of Monastery Swiftspear and Pyromancer about. Why do you think it's superior to Forked Bolt?

I wonder if Scavenging Ooze or even Savage Knuckleblade could work in here too (possibly as a replacement for Clique in aggro heavy metagames).

Anyway, I like how DTT is enabling a lot of these mid-rangey control builds post-TC ban.