Fire Imp is iffy, since it's not a may ability. If there's no other creature on the board, it has to hit itself. Although it does seem absurd from a tempo perspective against stuff like Elves/Bant/etc.
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Fire Imp is iffy, since it's not a may ability. If there's no other creature on the board, it has to hit itself. Although it does seem absurd from a tempo perspective against stuff like Elves/Bant/etc.
It has the same pro/contra arguments than FTK.
FTK is in everything DOUBLE as good, and costs 1 colorless more...
Pyrokinesis has always been great for me in the SB against a variety of swarm decks, especially Elves. Make sure to include it if you anticipate playing them this weekend.
Goblin Settler is a great find; LD that carries equipment and isn't outrageously expensive (and doesn't have Echo) is sweet.
Hey all.
While I can't make it to GP Providence this weekend, I'm looking to play @ SCG's Legacy Open in Indy one week from Sunday. DS looks quite well positioned at the moment, but I've been having issues with the Merfolk matchup. So here are my thoughts/questions:
- Disruption: It seems *crucial* to have disruption t1 or 2 (or Jitte + dude) to have a reasonable shot at staying in the game. Is this correct, from your experience?
- Threats: Arc-Slogger is obviously amazing, and Revoker MD has worked out quite well. Also, it seems that the consensus for equips is SoBaM and/or Jitte, which clearly nail Merfolk.
- SB: How tech is Mauler? I still have some number of open SB slots; do you believe he's worth it? What other SB cards (besides Pyrokinesis, obv) are good for this MU? What should we side out?
- Postboard: How do we avoid getting owned by Dismember? I just tested against a post-NPH build, and that thing is nuts in Merfolk. The obvious answer seems to be "resolve more threats" - do we drop accel for them? This card is really giving me problems :frown:
Also, more general question: what's everyone's opinion on Seething Song?
I think it's safe to say that the Hellbent is no longer the best approach to take this deck.
Gathan Raider really isn't that great a card. You spend three mana AND a card from from your hand for a vanilla 3/3 that conditionally becomes a vanilla 5/5. Compare that to something like Tarmogoyf that for 2 mana is a 5/6 and doesn't cost you a card.
Even Rakdos Pit Dragon is incredibly easy to kill, and horrible if you don't have hellbent.
The nonhellbent threats (Moltensteel Dragon, Arc Slogger, Porcelain Legionnaire, Covetous Dragon, Flametoungue Kavu etc) are all superior.
Moltensteel, porcelain and covetous are all inferior. Flametounge kavu is a great sideboard card (especially for tribal match up - probably better to run that taurean mauler IMO - and I have run both), however, it is largely conditional as a beater mainboard. There are decks which it won't kill anything against and will clog up your hand an potentially have to be used to kill off something of your own just so you can swing for 4 a turn. With the recent increase of attention to more dedicated control, this is even more of a bad thing. It won't have any targets and will potentially just sit there uselessly.
Moltensteel can't pitch to mox and is life intensive in an already life intensive deck (thanks to tomb). I've tested moltensteel and I just can't see it making the cut. The lifeloss has never been worth it and has lost me more than one game. Porcelain legionnaire just isn't fat enough to get the job done typically. I've tested it in a few decks, and an ass of 1 just isn't big enough. I've shared my thoughts on covetous more than once - and it remains far too conditional for me to even consider playing at this point.
That being said, there should be at least 3 revokers in your 75, 4 if you can make it fit. I personally run them SB, as they are better as a surprise factor for me and I like to know what I'm playing against before I commit to playing out something that I might name the wrong card on.
and hellbent is fine. Masamune's finish helped to reinforce that if anything
Anyone considered running Jaya Ballard again, now that the priest was printed?
I tested with 3 main and i was quite happy with her. :)
My new list has no sloggers but 4 Swords, Priests, Moltensteels and Jayas and is doing fine right now.
I would add lightning graves to this deck=/ so we will have 2xjitt+1xLightning graves.
It suits this deck perfectly-we realy need haste and we realy gota protect our creatures, especialy considering we dont have many of them.
Arent you getting frustrated when rakdos gets killed by lightning bolt or StoP?
4 Swords Oo. Don't know about it, seems a bit too much...
I played on a very small Tournament here today [4 rounds], and got first with a non-Hellbent List with a techy sideboard =P
Deck: Dredge
Screw:
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Phyrexian Revoker
Kill/Tech:
4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Body & Mind
Mana:
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
11 Snow-Covered Mountain
Sideboard:
4 Volcanic Fallout
4 An-Zerrin Ruins
3 Shattering Spree
2 Anarchy
2 Tormod's Crypt
short report:
Round 1 against Chris with ANT 2-1 [Gobolord]
G1: He starts with Fetchland & Ponder, I go with Tomb -> Chalice 1, next Turn I resolve a Trinisphere and he scoops.
G2: I resolve to Revokers on LED and Lotus Petal, and resolve a Shatterskull a bit later. At 1 life he Echoing Truthes my Revokers and Combos off.
G3: Chalice 1, then Revoker naming LED, Revoker gets equipped with Sword, 1 turn later equip with Jitte. After Sword mills his IGG and Tendrils, he scoops.
Round 2 against Steffen with GW-Aggro 2-1
G1: Moon resolves leaving him with basic Forets. Stoneforge finds Jitte, gets Disenchanted by my Jitte. Stoneforge and Revoker die in combat. He resolves Goyf, Goyf swings me to 1, I resolve Shatterskull with level up, He finds his basic Plains, and Pathes my Shatterskull to the win.
G2: At 1 life from Goyfbeatdown my Revoker gets a SoB&M and wins the game.
G3: Jitte disenchants Jitte, My Sword gets Gripped. I win with Shatterskull and FTK, Revokering his Qasali.
Round 3 against whoever with Kithkins 0-2
G1: I lose to horrible mana flood, and dead Blood Moons / Revokers, and just got overruned by ugly looking creatures I had never seen before.
G2: He resolves a Honor of the Pure, a Kithkin Lord, and a Preeminent Captain. I had a LVL 3 Shatterskull, and a Volcanic Fallout in my hand. I attack with Shatterskull, he takes 6. In his turn, he wanted to attack, and I wanted to kill all his crazy looking stuff, forgetting about his Honor of the Pure. =( Then he attacked with his Preeminent Captain and his Kithkin Lord, his Preeminent Captain brings in another Preeminent Captain which brings in another Preeminent Captain which brings in a Kinsbaile Borderguard. Swinging me down to 5. [Got life thanks to a Jitte which got O-Ringed and Swords to Plow.] I am now aware that Captain-chaining is not possible =(. Nevertheless, I lost against it, and was angry with myself about my missplay with Fallout.
Round 4 against Chris with GRB Goyf/Confidant/Lavamancer/Tombstalker-removal.deck
G1: I win with a Blood Moon, he could do nothing than cast Bolts.
G2: I had horrible mana-flood, and resolved a Mountain, and 3 Shatteskulls... all 4 got Bolted. The game ends with 8 Mountains and 3 Ancient Tombs, never seeing anything besides Trinis / Chalice and Moons and 2 Jitte
G3: I start with Moon, and win with a Revoker naming Lavamancer, which got equppied by a Sword. After I milled his Basics, he scooped.
Yeah, best opponent-score and stuff, I got first =P
I will cut the 11th Mountain as I was terrible often manaflooded =(
What could be a good 1-off for it ???
When you are really unsatisfied with the options out there for DS I can just recommend to "fill out" that slot with Priest of Urabrask, especially if you rely on 3 (!) Jitte and 5 Equipments. He's kinda a pseudo manasource which seem to make sense in front of your allover well working deck beeing a bit flooded, just my 2 cents
@ An-Zerrin Ruins By the gods! Homeworlds! I tip my hat to you, sir. Its actually not that bad.
I removed the RPD sometime ago from my build but found the Gathan still viable, particularly as I use them in addition to RAkroma but I definitely like the addition of the 4th Lord of S/P as well as 2 SoBaM. I think I might mimic your build somewhat dropping the Gathans for the lord/swords. Revoker shall remain a SB card due to my meta but I think altering my build like that will definitely improve it.
Kudos on the wins!
Forlorn Egoist
So any ideas about lightning greaves?
Cmon its suits DS so good.Haste and shroud for 0 mana will solve so many problems
Too bad that Stoneforge Msytic is white...
Kuldotha Forgemaster just for Greaves isn't worth it.
Without a option to search it, it looks kinda bad as a singleton, IMO.
-->Don't say Godo, Bandit Warlord.
Although it solves the issue of targeted removal, Greaves ultimately is subpar in comparison to other equipment. The primary reason we run equipment isn't because we fear removal (due to our higher-than-average creature count and mass amounts of screw) but because we can't deal with opposing creatures. A KotR or a 'Goyf can often times halt our attack entirely and put us on the defensive. The limited burn we have access to (Fallout/FTK) usually can't kill such creatures, Bomb is too clunky, and Anarchy only hits white stuff which, although nailing KotR/Prog still leaves too many threats unanswered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellyx
Jitte provides a suite of useful effects particularly against tribal. The Swords gives us protection from specific colors which can enable even a SSG or Magus to deal with bigger threats whereas Greaves only protects from removal. They also can provide additional effects to strengthen our position.
Shroud is ultimately irrelevant for our deck. Our screw slows their tempo so we compensate somewhat for our lack of cantrips. The removal suite for most decks boils down to 4 StP/PtE, in the case of Rock 3-4 Vindicate/1-2 GftT, and then assuming blue 8-12 counters and typically some mix of burn. Rock is becoming less popular than it once was, so I think you can afford to look past the 8-10 MD removal they sometimes run. Swords give us a static +2/+2 which forces a burn player to expend 2 burn spells/effects at minimum to kill the creature. Shroud fails to offer protection from counters so its irrelevant in this aspect, and essentially no deck I can name runs StP/PtE in conjunction with one another.
While Greaves certainly is not a terrible card its primarily used in EDH for the reason that Jitte/Swords offer so much more Legacy. If you really want Shroud, Whispersilk Cloak seems like it'd be somewhat more viable as you are at least getting Unblockable out of the deal.
ForlornEgoist
I have thoughts about what has been said recently in this thread but I'll let my list speak for itself.
I played in a small tournament about 15 people today and I'm extremely happy with my list and found that I was correct in thinking that it's a good time for Dragon Stompy.
I went 3-2 and placed 9th (barely missing the cut to top8). In the top 8, there were many decks that had greedy manabases and would bend over to moon effects. There's always next time.
My first loss was round 1 to entomb/hulk combo. Game 1, I failed to get chalice for 1 or Revoker naming Bile Urchin and he had FoW for my Magus. Game 2, I stick a trinisphere and on my eot before his fourth turn he entombs for three mana getting hulk and then proceeds to untap, play necromancy and win. Very cool.
My second loss was to UW control and I was incredibly mana flooded.
Here's what I played:
Main
mountain 10
city of traitors 4
ancients tomb 4
trinisphere 4
chalice of the void 4
blood moon 4
magus of the moon 4
chrome mox 4
simian spirit guide 4
Priest of Urabrask 4
Sword of War and Peace 2
Rakdos Pit-Dragon 4
Gathan Raiders 4
phyrexian revoker 4
Side:
Seething Song 4
Arc Slogger 2
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs 1
Pyrokinesis 4
Anarchy 2
Ratchet Bomb
The side wasn't perfect, however this is the first time I tried to have a seething song/slogger/kazzul package in the board and I absolutely loved it. I personally still believe that slogger is strong and kazzul was good as well. I liked having the benefits of both the seething song list and the non-seething song list since I find that the SS version really helps against certain matchups but not all. I probably need better graveyard hate (especially after being horribly blown out by untomb/hulk). Slogger and Kazuul help with agro so much that I'm not certain the pyrokinesis is needed.
With that said, the main was wonderful today. People are again playing with greedy manabases and I can't even tell you how many times my opponents had dead mental missteps G1. I played against Mono U control, and other stoneforge mystic midrange/control decks and something else I can't remember right now.
Sword of War and Peace is the real deal. In almost any other deck, I feel there are better equips, but I run 16 (20 if you count revoker encouraging someone not to play a card they can't activate) cards main that try to prevent the opponent from playing spells. The deck wants to swing for the win as soon as possible. I swung for 22 with a pit dragon and 13 with a Gathan Raiders for example (Tangent - I disagree that Pit Dragon and Gathan Raiders are not great - they are amazing imo even without SoWP).
This deck hates going for broke and then having the beater removed. The protections allow the threat to remain on the board and the opponent will rarely survive a 2nd attack.
Typically, I like Jitte and SoFI, but after this swords' performance today, I swear by it.
Priest of Urabrask - allows you to get the sword online that much easier. Slips under annoying trinispheres or chalices. I am thoroughly impressed with this card. After playing with it today, I am unlikely to take it out any time soon since it allows us to get a clock, albeit small, on the board right away and it fixes mana sometimes. Round 1, game 1 I had a double priest into magus of the moon on turn 1 (magus was FoW however). Give it a shot - this is another reason why there are 4 trinispheres in my main again.
Revoker was fantastic. It never shut down a vial all day long, but it stopped many tops/jace2.0.
I'll reiterate that I think that pit dragon and gathan raiders are great. It's also my opinion that hellbent definitely is a strong direction to take this deck. That's my opinion and I can't go into every single anecdote about how each are wonderful. I'm sure there are just as many stories about how covetous dragon or kagan were super cool in game xyz. Gathan Raiders and Pit Dragon do a lot of damage and kill players.
That's all I got for now, but feel free to ask any questions. I feel this deck could have been a serious contender in the top 8 (if I didn't split like they ended up doing) and know that I could have performed better by playing smarter against entomb/hulk that I'm not super familiar with and pile shuffling like mad to prevent manaflood in round 3.
I was waiting for it to be a good time for Dragon Stompy again and I am happy to play this in the current meta. Batterskull was troublesome for me, though. Perhaps some artifact hate in the board.
Anyone consider running manic vandal on the side?
Tacosnape does, at least in the past, cuz we don't know his actual board =D -> IMO Shattering Spree is better.Quote:
Originally Posted by hyc8028
Anyone else here has experience with Sword of War & Peace?
I can really see the Huge lifeswing/damage factor, but the protection colors are not as good as SoB&M, because removal gets usually Chalice1ed...
As far as my experience goes, with the format in general, Sword of War & Peace doesnt do the job you want it to do.
Against Aggro-Decks the sword looses quite some value because they are able to play out their hand rather fast which makes the sword somewhat unreasonable and hits the opponent in such a late point of the game that its abilities doesnt matter anymore. That is the reason why the other Swords are so great in the deck, they support the mid to late game very well and are able to produce general or virtual card advantage that SoW&P cant. On the other hand, against control the sword is most of the times just a win more when you are able to push trough their board and I see no reason to not run F&I or B&M or F&F here, which support the gameplan way better in each of the situations that I mentioned above. Besides that, pro white and pro red isnt as important as the pro from the other colors that help to fix the decks most common problems: Resolved Goyf/Knight or Merfolks in general.
I am not relying on the fact that the sword cant win some games and that it COULD matter at some points but these are damn rare in comparison to the other swords abilities.
Greetings!
I just wrote about my experiences with Sword of War and Peace two posts above yours. I am at odds with the post above this one because, as I stated in my post, I am finding sword of war and peace to be fantastic in this deck and I am planning on running it over the other alternatives (and jitte) for the foreseeable future.Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth