Printable View
In this meta I think red or red/white painter are much stronger suited. The blue does not offer any legitimate upgrades of advantages over imperial painter. And the benefits of blood moon far out weigh any non-moon strategy right now (for this archetype)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Way to go arthur reynolds (are you on the boards here) with a top 8 with UR Painter. It looks like a version focused on the much older versions of the deck (lots of intuition, almost no TA or support for TA). He also ran a lot more COunters than are usually found in the UR version 12 in total and 7 total artifact lands. Overall the deck looks very good.
If arthur is around congrats and thanks for showing us UR painter is still alive and kicking. If you are around any thoughts on your list?
List for reference
2nd place at SCG Knoxville
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=67026
2 Flusterstorm
3 Mox Opal
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Painter's Servant
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Brainstorm
4 Goblin Welder
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Grindstone
4 Intuition
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
1 Transmute Artifact
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
1 Swan Song
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Misdirection
2 Tormod's Crypt
I really like the list. Pushing to a faster combo and less of a control lock deck. I think this has legs and I would like to work on it.
I already built this new version, but I am starting to think that with just 1 Transmute artifact and no grim monolith or other support-ish cards for it, there might be a better option? If fabricate were an instant I would be all over that, as it stands, I don't know if there is a better option (gamble?), but in this build I don't like TA as much.
The other things that stand out as odd to me looking at the list are so few basics and so many artifact lands. I was usually running 4 and 4 and wasn't hurting for welding targets, so i could see bringing the numbers a little closer to the old lists on that. I would also like to see 1 more top since that card is absolutely the nuts in this deck, and if i could i would like to squeeze in 1 academy ruins as a 5th pseudo welder. I know it is a little slower, but that effect can be very strong.
Overall more counters and less transmute artifacts/grim monoliths seems very good to me right now.
One of the big reasons for more artifact lands is the higher Mox Opal count.Quote:
Originally Posted by merfolkotpt
I mean that makes sense, but I think in earlier versions of the deck (look back in the thread) there are many versions, by me and other people, with 3 opal that still don't run 7 artifact lands. I think my earliest versions of this deck just had fewer artifacts in general, but I could be wrong.
I still think the number doesn't need to be quite that high and I personally would appreciate either an additional Island or fetchland in the main.
I will probably make up for it by running an additional SDT so the artifact numbers will still be quite high.
A new experiment using Khans:
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Brainstorm
4 Artificer's Intuition
3 Spell Pierce
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
2 Grindstone
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Locket Of Yesterdays
2 Altar of the Brood
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Great Furnace
3 Volcanic Island
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod
Any explanation on this experiment? Artificer's Intuition is the plan i guess: Why do we play the other weird cards? Why not play traditional good 0-1 drops like engineered explosives?
Seems sort of interesting, but why are the cards you added better than any other cards I could play?
In other news:
I have a version of the deck currently built with Dack Fayden, it is fine, but I don't think we have hit on version that is better (in this meta) than Imperial Painter. I would love for someone to prove me wrong...
Has anyone considered some number of Dig through time in painter?
Obviously we rely on our graveyard but the impulse for 7 seems real promising especially at instant speed. I was thinking about something closer to the list that did well at the Open in knoxville, but with Dig Through Time as the Transmute artifact replacement.
Thoughts?
What do you mean why to play the weird cards? If artificer's intuition is the plan, it is because besides tutoring grindstone it can tutor the whole mill infinite combo with SDT/locket/altar.Quote:
Originally Posted by merfolkotpt
in SB, EE, meekstone and needle seem sweet.
But it seems to me that you add a lot of clunky cards for this easily hatable (gravehate, needle, permanents) combo.
I mean the weird cards in that combo (yes they can all be tutored for but it is still a 4 card combo that you need 3.5 pieces of which in play). Also conjurer's bauble?Quote:
What do you mean why to play the weird cards? If artificer's intuition is the plan, it is because besides tutoring grindstone it can tutor the whole mill infinite combo with SDT/locket/altar.
I want to know why this combo helps anything...
It seems to me that the only bonus we get is not being susceptible to creature hate that doesn't also hit artifacts or enchantments. That is not the actual card that is tough for this deck to deal with (decay), but only the one which is mildly annoying bolt, and the one that needs to be countered or dealt with regularly: swords.
We trade that off for being more susceptible to graveyard hate, and having a much harder to assemble combo. Neat. :|
U/R painter going into top 8 at SCG Minneapolis now. We should be able to see it play in the next hour or so, they're on an air break at the moment.
His list is similar to the Arthur Reynolds list that made top-8 in May. He's also running a Wurmcoil Engine in the sideboard, kind of strange but easy to throw in the yard with intuition. He managed to get it going in a game against dredge a moment ago.
Is there still development on this deck?
I have to disagree, said hate cards have to be drawn in consistent fashion. Dont lose faith in BS! :DQuote:
Most Painter players are on iPainter or R/w iPainter. Especially with the printing of Spirit of the Labyrinth, Brainstorm is weaker than jamming Moons right now
Joke aside, I want to point out that the deck has some very strong advantages over other combo decks, while it seems like it is very weak due to all the Lightningbolts flying around and whatnot. The deck is so strong because of blue and because it can reassemble very fast compared to other decks, while having next to 0 dead cards. (This is not supposed to convince you, but I am not in to discuss why, but how to play ur painter ;)
So lets adapt to the new meta, the strongest list was the 4 Mental Misstep list, so I use this for reference. The last tournament lists reflect this, as they are very close the said list, obviously without the MM's.
So what does change except the protection suit? The fact that the Treasure Cruise decks have huge draw engine due to said card. So we cannot *just* assemble the combo and pray, but build the deck to be able to keep up the pressure (which is the key strength of ur painter as mentioned).
The most powerful tool to keep up with these decks is DTT as already proposed before. It gives both card advantage and selection. While UU is a concern, it is much more powerful than TC, due to how deep it digs. It also plays very well with transformational sideboard plans, which have to be discussed separately.
It should be obvious that it is not a real opposition to Welder, as Welder basically just needs a Painter in the yard in most cases. Please state if you have other concerns, but otherwise I want to go on.
Some other observations regarding the different meta:
- Lesser Wastelands means that we have to run less land.
- A healthy amount of Redblasts / Pyroblasts is very strong right now.
- SDT while very synergistic is also pretty slow and clunky in multiples, I currently run 2 for this reason.
- Ponder while not very synergistic is incredibly strong card and makes DTT also faster to cast.
- Dont go below 3 Moxen, its one of the selling points of this deck. I like to keep the 16 artifacts + 7 artifact lands for this reason.
Some questions:
- What do you think about the old transformational sideboard with 4 Show and Tell + 3 Emrakul? I think it is stronger than Wurmcoil in a list which isnt specifically tuned to support it (Transmute + Grim), which tend to be slower and clunkier overall imo.
- I dont know if it is still worth to keep LED, its very explosive but also all-in. I think it is not well positioned, but I could be wrong. Currently I run a single Lotus Petal in its spot, which can also be useful outside the combo.
Since Treasure Cruise / Dig Through Time has been spoiled, I have been wondering about these cards in a Tempo-Painter deck. Or the other way around, in a blue metagame, thinking of a UR Tempodeck which maximizes on REB's and Pyroblasts with a combokill (being Painter-Stone).Quote:
Originally Posted by deadlock
I made a list which did quite alright in some online playtesting:
- 8 blue fetches
- 4 volcanic islands
- 1 tundra
- 4 islands
- 1 mountain
- 2 academy ruins
- 4 painter's servant
- 3 grindstone
- 4 Red Elemental Blasts
- 4 Pyroblasts
- 4 Force of Will
- 4 enlightened tutors
- 4 Treasure Cruise
- 4 brainstorm
- 4 ponder
- 2 gitaxian probe
- 1 ensnaring bridge
- 1 engineered explosives
- 1 tormod's crypt
This list uses cantrips and enlightened tutor as means to assemble the combo, backs it up with a full package of REBs and Pyroblasts, and uses TCruise to negate carddisatvantage from ETutor. Redundancy comes from Academy Ruins instead of goblin Welder, and has an Engineered Explosives package to go along. Disadvantage of this list is that it does not have welder shenanigans, and does not have artifactmana acceleration.
I prefer in this list TC over DTT because it is 1 mana cheaper (if you delve one extra mana), and because there's ETutor for targeted tutoring.
This is quite different than previous intuition lists, and therefore might be posted in the wrong place (perhaps it should be posted in a new experimental thread). But nontheless some thoughts and critics would be welcomed!
Dig through time is far better than treasure cruise in combo decks
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
More on the white splash mentioned above - I ran this version of UR(w) Painter to 4-0 at our Legacy weekly today - felt like a really powerful deck in a room with very few Wastelands. The white splash seemed really strong and critical to many of the wins just because of the speed of tutoring into a combo piece compared to waiting to cantrip for it. Tutoring for Engineered Explosives to solve a problematic permanent was also game-winning.
Combo (8)
4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant
Control/Protection (15)
3 Goblin Welder
2 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
1 Spellskite
Dig/Tutors (14)
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Intuition
1 Sensei's Divining Top
Random Value (3)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Batterskull
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
Lands (20)
6 fetches
6 duals
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Seat of the Synod
2 Great Furnace
1 Academy Ruins
Sideboard
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Aegis of the Gods
3 Pithing Needle
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Mutagenic Growth
Matchups were a bit unusual and probably quite lucky: Burn (scary, just have to be fast and don't play Painter's Servant until you can protect it), Reanimator x2 (take the control role, just counter everything especially once your red blasts are fully turned on), Enchantress (keep a fast hand, remember to plan for Emrakul post-board). Against a more typical field with blue control or tempo decks, I think playing the control role might be harder since we have some cards that are just multiple redundant combo pieces. Also, the deck felt vulnerable to mana disruption which might be a big problem if Daze/Stifle/Wasteland pick up again as a reaction to the greedy land counts going around.
Card Choices
Misdirection/Spellskite: these cards seem required to even have a chance against Abrupt Decay. Misdirection with an active Painter naming blue is almost always able to pitch a card you don't need to protect your combo piece. I was always happy to see these in hand as Forces 5 and 6.
Tormod's Crypt: you need to have a tutorable way to remove the graveyard in response to an Emrakul trigger - hence the 3x so you can grab it with Intuition as well as Enlightened Tutor. This is the only one I know of that doesn't also shut off your own welder/Academy Ruins.
Mutagenic Growth: not sure about this - in theory it's great against decks that have only Bolt effects to kill your painter, but in those matchups paying 2 life can sometimes take a turn off your opponent's clock. Serves as your 7th and 8th piece of free protection (after Force/Misdirection) which is sometimes needed I think.
Others: Most of the rest of what I played in the sideboard seems incorrect now - probably need to pick up three copies or Llawan and one Ensnaring Bridge which looks like more common slots for U/R builds and would probably be crucial against more typical creature decks. Batterskull felt really bad and always got boarded out - should probably be a mainboard Ensnaring Bridge or maybe even something like a Moat for a similar effect.
Mox Opal: not running it because in the limited U/R coverage available online, metalcraft seems to be turned off a non-trivial percentage of the time. I think it is also harder to run 7 artifact lands when you need enough fetches and duals to hit three colors reliably.
I like that you are still trying to innovate with the list. I like it a lot more with abrupt decay on the down turn that was definitely the hardest card for this deck to deal with.
That being said, i have some questions, do you feel like ET is too slow? I like the card, but I still the power of this deck is in the fact that it can be very fast. In addition it forces you to fetch a dual early (although looking now you have 0 basics, so I guess that is ok).
I also really liked Blood Moon out of the board traditionally, though maybe in the current meta that isn't as strong. Finally, if you are playing ET, I think having one tormod's crypt main, is probably justified. Having a shot to beat an emrakul main deck is good, and since we have welders, it makes it much better in the matchups we would like it. In addition, if you do decide you want more mana (i feel like your deck is light in general) it helps with metalcraft for mox opal.
Some cards to consider if you want to go back to just UR for your white cards are: gamble as one of your tutors (it sounds like you aren't wild about transmute artifact, but i like it), trinket mage so you can still have a toolbox (needle, EE, crypt, top, grindstone), and finally consider divert if you like misdirection a lot. I have tested both, and ended up not really liking either because they are very situational, but divert is a good card against AD and doesn't keep all the cards out of your hand.
If you were to go away from white but wanted similar cards to canonist/aegis of the gods, consider trinisphere as a possibility, or even if you up the number of tops (I like it more than ponder in this deck in general, because of synergies with welder, and potentially opal) you can play counterbalance.
merfolkotpt: I agree with a lot of what you've said. Enlightened Tutor does seem like it may slow the deck down by half a turn or so given that it disrupts the 1->2->3 curve. I usually find though that it makes so many otherwise bad opening hands into strong keeps, that the resilience and consistency gain is worth it. I'm very comfortable keeping an opener with one combo piece, an ET, and a cantrip. In a straight U/R build I'm not sure that is keepable because that ET would be something like a mana source or an extra cantrip instead, and there's a nonzero chance to miss ever seeing your second combo piece. Playing 4 ET + 3 Intuition makes consistency a total non-issue. I need more games to get a better feel for this, I may well be overvaluing that safety net.
Definitely agree that one Tormod's Crypt main is correct, that's just a detail I missed on the initial builds but now that I look at tcdecks more closely I see that it looks pretty standard even in the non-white versions. I hardly see any Emrakul in Madison but I won't pass up the chance to have tutorable graveyard hate against something like Reanimator.
It's probably time to get 1x Mox Opal and start working it in so I can do some real testing and see how many times the speed boost makes the difference - I can totally see it being viable. I do agree the deck is light on mana - running just the 20 lands here feels very greedy, and I would need to bump that up if Wasteland picks up again.
At the moment, there are so many red decks running around that I haven't felt the need for Blood Moon. It's unfortunate that it's just not compatible with the white splash because I'm on all nonbasics - being able to Enlightened Tutor for it would certainly be interesting. I'll probably try a straight U/R build at some point with the full set of Intuitions and a few Dig Through Time, and like the idea of Trinisphere there against all the 1-mana cantrips and removal going on.
This also has one foot in the Imperial Painter thread. Grixis Painter by Jonathan Salem. 2nd Place at Dec. 14, 2014 Seattle SCG Premier IQ
Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Force of Will
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Dig Through Time
Creatures
3 Baleful Strix
3 Goblin Welder
2 Imperial Recruiter
2 Painter's Servant
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Trinket Mage
Artifacts
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grindstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb
Enchantments
3 Counterbalance
Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sorceries
1 Transmute Artifact
Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Swamp
Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
1 Firebolt
1 Force of Will
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Meekstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Toxic Deluge
I've been looking at lists posted in the last pages and i got some input.
- goblin welder and intuition are just too good together, we must play both.
- if plan A fails, what is plan B ? or plan C ?
- enlightened tutor is really great. Why bother saying it slows the deck when you can have exactly what you want. It only slows it down in theory beceause you "would" have what you need.
- adding white, and a third color just for enlightened tutor is probably wrong. silver bullets are fine but consistency in the manabase is crucial.