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Deadguy is going to give you some trouble. They're very similar to us, in a way, although instead of acceleration, they run even more disruption and removal. They run planeswalkers (notably Elspeth) that can be a serious pain to remove. The best you can do is try to actively remove their threats, expecting your hand and your threats to go away. If you can get into a topdeck war with Deadguy, you're probably going to win. Think of it as an attrition-based deck mirror, and that should help a bit.
Note that Engineered Plague is also very good against Deadguy Ale.Their main card is Dark Confidant and you should do everything to stop it. It also gets their token makers, Bitterblossom, Sorin, Lingering Souls or Elspeth. Plague seems like the perfect SB card for your Meta, you might want a third.
Good point- with Plague, naming Human vs. Deadguy gets Confidant, Mother of Runes and sacrifices your Explorer. Naming Soldier can kill their Eslpeth tokens as well as sacrificing Explorer, too.
I replaced 3 Percy for 3 Bloodgift Demon(The list is posted on the previous page) today, I went:
R1: 2-0 Dredge
R2: 2-1 Zoo
R3: 1-1-1 Stoneblade
R4: 1-2 Stoneblade
The two last games were very long and difficult, especially because I don't own a Thrun... Jace is still a pain to deal with, and Bloodgift doesn't cut it against unlimited StP and WoG. After these long matches, someone made me realize that Grave Titan instead of Demon would probably have granted me first place at that event. What is essential about Grave Titan as a bomb is that it grants immediate card advantage. What I dislike about Titan though, is that he doesn't do anything that Hermit can't, he is this deck's Hermit #2-3. Also, Titan doesn't solve the issue that every single one of our threats against Stoneblade fall to Wrath of God.
With that being said, I think this deck needs a Garruk. I have seen Stoneblade players lose to the worst players simply because they managed to land a Bitterblossom or an Elspeth. If we have troubles dealing with a resolved Jace, imagine how much they must struggle against a resolved Garruk... Now, which Garruk to play: Relentless or Primal Hunter? I tested Relentless quite a bit and thought he was good, but lacked in power level. His tokens are small, he isn't as good when he cannot snipe something right away, and he doesn't have a finishing ability. Although Hunter has that triple Forest requirement, I think his abilities are more suited to replacing Titan.
On a different note, I am once again torn between White and Red as my 3rd color. Which cards are the best and why between:
Swords to Plowshares VS. Lightning Bolt;
Vindicate VS. Maelstrom Pulse;
Grave Titan VS. Broodmate Dragon;
Enlightened Tutor VS. Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast?
To me, it is obvious that Vindicate is better than Pulse, but not by a huge margin. As for StP and Lightning Bolt, burn reach may have merits that I don't fully realize yet. Broodmate Dragon seems like a pure upgrade to Grave Titan simply because the tokens fly and he can be fetched via GSZ. I don't expect the continuous stream of tokens Titan provides to be a selling point because 6 CMC threats that go unanswered generally win by themselves. Tutor board against REB board is a tough choice altogether...
It's a solid choice, just never forget that Witness is a Human herself. Last sunday i won a match because my opponent forgot that and he couldn't block afterwards :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Otherwise the application are very wide.
Tao, how is your Punishing list working? Red Blast and Broodmate Dragon seem very strong.
I keep thinking it would be hilarious to side in Living Death for the inevitable Wraths coming from Stoneblade. If my meta was full of that I probably would, but the usefulness seems limited outside that matchup. Ooze + Deed + Living Death is pretty cute though. I think the real answer to that matchup is just planeswalkers of our own. Trying to choose between Garruk PH or Elspeth currently. Either way you get an engine that can recover from a Wrath or Deed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Hello, I've been playing the deck with success in my local metagame for several weeks and because of the gravedigger's cage, I'm wondering if the deck is still viable in the metagame. I don't think the cage will be much played but it's still possible so any suggestions for the deck?
I've been playing the B/G version, because it's a better deck against combo because of hymn to Tourach and people keep playing that in my local metagame.
I have been playing some G/B with hymns. I have been having trouble with Burn decks lately, sure having a bunch of discard helps, but I need something with more impact in my board for this matchup. I can't really come up with anything in only those two colors, any suggestions?
While annoying, we have like 7-8 maindeck answers to it, and possibly more sided, and thats not including cabal therapy. I dont think its anything to worry too much about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theonlyone
Burn is a tough matchup for this deck. Discard and lifegain are you best tools to fight burn. Kitchen finks is champ here, also any creature with a toughness greater than 3. You really have to hit them some therapys/hymns or they can just fishbowl you in 3-4 turns (even faster if you give them lands with explorer).Quote:
Originally Posted by muscleb
Got in some good testing last night with a few friends. Went 2-0 against Stoneblade and 1-0 against Enchantress. Getting more comfortable with the deck, and pretty happy with my changes. SFM/Batterskull really gives this deck some staying power in long grindy matches.
The main spot I'm not sure about are Planeswalker: Garruk PH is easier to cast and can be a great draw engine, but Elspeth gives better evasion and therefore is a better finisher. Both their ultimates have great synergy with the deck too. One issue is that all my Elspeths are from EvT, and when I sleeved one up it was obvious as hell in the deck.
The other slots I'm debating are the 3rd Deed vs. the 4th GSZ. Deed can be a huge blowout against some decks, and make up for our lack of speed, but GSZ is a lot more flexible. Heck, it can even grab Witness to grab a used Deed!
I think that for now, I'd stick with the 3rd Deed vs the 4th GSZ, at least until the furor over Cage settles down and we can see how obnoxious it truly is. Running 4 GSZ with only 2 Deed seems like asking to get shot in the ass by Cage, since you know that people will bring it in against us, whether it's correct or not (I'm of the opinion that it is not...at least for most decks/versions of this deck).
For those running G/B and having trouble with burn, have you considered Nighthawk? 3 toughness is a bitch, but at -worst- it's a healing salve, because they HAVE to kill it. At best, they've had to burn out a few other problem cards and/or your disruption has left them without answers, and it'll gain you some precious life. Mostly though, Finks is your ticket here. If you're really having trouble with it, you could always consider Lox. Hierarch and/or Obstinate Baloth.
I am playing one finks, but I just died anyway when I got it. I smashed their hand with discard, but without a clock on the table they just kill me eventually.
I think Baloth is what I am looking for, the nighthawk is okish but a 3 mana healing salve is not going to cut it, Baloth gains some life, blocks and provides a decent clock(and can be found with zenith).
Thanks for the help.
Punishing fires is another decent reasons to go red. One problem i've found with it is the fact that the manabase can be a little shaky when you add in those Groves alongside all the basics you need for explorer and whatsnot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
I also think that Broodmate is by far the best finisher for the deck, the flying help a lot when compared to Hermit and Titan, it give you a lot more inevitability.
As for Bolt vs StP, it depends on too many factors. Bolt has the ability to hit walker to go for it, while StP exile goyfs and KotRs.
You could also consider Bloodbraid if you go RGB. I know it has a lot of anti-synergy with GSZ, but it's still a pretty good anti-control card. If you flip anything but GSZ, you're ok, bolting people, laying down pernicious, explorers, witnesses and whatsnot.
Zuran Orb in the board?Quote:
Originally Posted by muscleb
I was about to say that Grave Titan is better than Broodmate but then I saw that you can actually GSZ for Broodmate which I completely missed before. Good idea with Broodmate, playing 1 is certainly correct.
The Burn matchup is positive imo but atm with the recent SCG win of Burn and the popularity of UR Burn you should certainly have a second Finks in the Sideboard and a third won't harm. Once you start using Finks multiple times with Witness or Recurring Nightmare you should be fine.
You can always just go Fierce Empath->Grave Titan. Sometimes it's slower than GSZ'ing for 7, but often times, it's faster (GSZ for 3 when you have 4-5 lands, then Grave Titan once you hit 6).
With that play you use 2 cards as a single tutor and 4+6 mana to get a finisher that doesn't fly over KotR and MoM. And that's significantly worse against StP compared to brood (brood leave you with a 4/4 flying, Titan with 2 2/2).Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenpoe
On 4 lands i'd rather search for a fink or play a Deed or a Liliana/Garruk/etc than tutor for an empath. Before playing empath just play Hermit imho, it's the better card.
It may just be me wanting to go against the grain a little bit, but I'm interested in coming up with a blue-splashed list, just to test out. Brainstorm is obviously the tits in this deck, since we're very controlly in most matchups, we have a fair amount of one-ofs, and we have a lot of built in shuffles. In the BGu list I've been using on MWS, the only blue cards I use in my maindeck are 4 Brainstorm and 1 Trygon Predator, who I haven't had to tutor for yet, but seems pretty amazing on paper, obv. I hear Jace, the Mind Sculptor is a pretty good card too, if you want to commit to a double blue casting cost. But I'm a little unsure, since I usually try to only have double-color requirements in two out of three colors when I'm building Nic Fit variants.
What really attracts me to wanting to splash blue though, is the feeling that some sort of counterspell suite would shore up this deck's weaknesses to combo and some forms of blue-based control. The tricky thing though, is I can't fathom a good version of this deck that could pack ~18 blue cards in the main to justify Force of Will. And I'm also not entirely sure the card disadvantage from FoW is what we would need, even if it did fit in the deck smoothly. So far, I've had my eye on some weird counters: Flusterstorm, Negate, and Countersquall. I think Flusterstorm is the most iffy of these in this deck, because we're oftentimes giving the opponent a few free lands. The logic on that one is it's good against any stack-based combo, and it's pretty decent at protecting your bombs against opposing counters, since it will at the very least be a Mana Leak for :u: if they try to counter one of your spells. The other two are probably the best hard counters we've got, since I'm not trying to leave double blue open for Counterspell. Also, we do have a fair amount of creature removal, so not being able to counter creatures seems like it's acceptable. All three of these seem more like sideboard cards than maindeck cards to me though, which begs the question: is it productive to have a counterspell suite in your sideboard in a deck that's not heavily committed to blue? If so, what would the right number and mix of counters be? Are there any that are good enough to justify running in the main? Why or why not? I'm not sure if this is a good way to take the deck, but I thought I'd toss it out there as food for thought and see if anyone thinks these, or any other blue cards have potential to shore up some of our weaknesses.
Re: This deck needs a better name... I agree. So far though, the only thing I've been able to come up with is both cheesy and slightly un-PC: "I Rock Veterans"? :tongue:
I second the name change to "Veteran Rock" or "Explorer Rock".
@ DukeDemon
I could see a Blue Rock build using Gifts Ungiven and Snapcaster Mage to do some heinous things. You only need 2 Snapcasters in such a build too.
Felt it was time to contribute with something, after a few months of reading this thread. In fact I planned to do so earlier, but didn't feel any of my earlier lists were good enough to post, as I was rather displeased with their results.
I totally agree regarding the name of this deck: I prefer the not so political correct name "Four little ******s", though I understand some would choose another name…
Concerning the decks content, I've tested several versions and settled with this list:
Creatures [16]
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Dungrove Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan
Istants [4]
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sorceries [10]
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Artifacts [3]
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantments [3]
3 Pernicious Deed
Planeswalkers [2]
2 Garruk Relentless
Lands [21]
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
SB
N/A
The only thing I'm aiming to change at the moment is returning 3-4 Hymns and then (of course) changes the manabase.
Here are some of the cards that have been dismissed:
Fierce Empath - Tried him as a one-off, since it seemed sweet searching for a more...ehm... bootylicious executer. Never felt he was the right choice of tutor, as you most likely don’t want to waste a GSZ unless you’ve loads of lands, are in desperate need of another shuffle with the Top or have Deranged Hermit in the graveyard/exiled.
Liliana of the Veil - Usually a 1BB Cruel Edict, unless it's late game or Sun Titan is in play.
Skeletal Scrying - Awesome at times but way too often a dead card due to too much life loss already. Changed it into the less broken but more consistent Top.