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Has anyone here ever tested Chancellor of the Annex in the main? If yes, were the results good? I am still trying to find the optimal cards for the flex-slots.
Also... there are people who say that Chancellor of the Forge is really good in the main... Anyone has results with them?
I've been running the Probe (or Shambling Shell depending on how you look at it)/Chancellor maindeck configuration at the past few tournaments I went to, and it was pretty good. I'd liked to have opened a few more hands with it, though, as I'm still not set on it or anything. It did flat out win a match against Bant one time, as it set him back a full turn to cast GSZ->Scavenging Ooze (I now officially hate that card). Overall, it seems its opening hand effect is pretty good against Noble Hierarch/GSZ decks, which have been pretty annoying for me as of late, as well as a variety of other matchups.
I tested Chancellor of the Forge in my initial list, but quickly cut it. It was only really good for casting early Cabal Therapies. I found that by the time I would have the necessary cards to (safely) go off with Dread Return, I would most of the time have three or more Narcomoebas, Ichorids, and/or Nether Shadows at my beck and call anyway. It's definitely playable enough to warrant more testing, but I think it's a tad subpar.
I don't think a token or the pseudo-ETW Dread Return is any where near as good as the tempo Chancellor of the Annex generates, I've set back decks multiple turns by opening it and then Dread Returning it back later and I'm pretty convinced it's stronger than a Bauble. It also beats down surprisingly well.
I'm pretty happy with my LEDless list all in all, I'm still running Shambling Shell regardless, but it just feels remarkably solid.
So, this past weekend I played a variation of Manaless Ichorid I've been tinkering with on my own these last few weeks. There were five rounds of action, but I wound up having to leave for an emergency after round four (which I purposely scooped a friend into so he could potentially make Top Eight). Aside from that, I was able to play through the first three rounds netting a 2-1 [5-2-0] record. I was very impressed with my new list, and my opponents couldn't believe half the time what they were seeing from the other side of the table with some unexpected options deployed.
For reference, here is the list I played:
Manaless Ichorid
[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Dread Return
[4x] Lion's Eye Diamond
[4x] Desperate Ravings
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Serum Powder
[2x] Sphinx of Lost Truths
[1x] Iona, Shield of Emeria
[1x] Flame-kin Zealot
//Sideboard
[4x] Leyline of Sanctity
[4x] Chancellor of the Annex
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Surgical Extraction
[1x] Blightsteel Colossus
[1x] Ancestor's Chosen
[1x] Angel of Despair
Round One: Versus Mono Green Combo Elves [2-0]
Game One: I win the die roll and put my opponent on the play. He is wise to my choice in doing so, and understands it's going to be a battle of speed. Thankfully, his quick start was neutered by an opening hand consisting of L.E.D., Desperate Ravings, Street Wraith, Grave-Troll, and some beaters (Ichorids and Shadows). I was able to annihilate his hand and prepare for a Dread Return on Sphinx to end the game the following turn - which I did.
-2 Faerie Macabre
+2 Leyline of Sanctity
Game Two: I open the game with a Leyline of Sanctity and Lion's Eye Diamond, which winds up being relevant as my opponent begins the game with a Tormod's Crypt. I wound up drawing into Street Wraith and with the activation on the stack, I sacrificed L.E.D. and wound up hitting a Desperate Ravings off a dredged Grave Troll. I've been recently weighing my options in certain circumstances with this combination of cards and the use of the stack, and the optimal play in most circumstances is making sure - if you can - to cast Desperate Ravings with the Street Wraith activation still on the stack. This way, you're able to drop that dredger back into the graveyard with the random discard and ensure you'll be able to dredge with the cycling activation still present.
I wound up winning in short order after all of that. Running the Serum Powders in testing has given me flexibility in the matchups where Faerie Macabre is not relevant enough to warrant inclusion, and in its stead bringing in two Leylines against relevant hate like Crypt. It provides stability where it was lost with the absence of Shambling Shell, and it wound up playing a serious role in the round that followed.
[1-0] [2-0-0]
Round Two: Versus R/b Goblins
Game One: It has been a long time since I've played against Goblins in an event. Game One wasn't much of a contest, as I was able to combo out on my opponent by Dread Returning a Sphinx on my turn two.
-2 Faerie Macabre
+2 Leyline of Sanctity
Game Two: Being forced on the play, I begin the game by revealing a Serum Powder with some relatively innocuous cards. My following draw netted me Leyline of Sanctity with L.E.D. - also complete with Desperate Ravings - and the blowout commenced. My opponent's start only began with Wasteland and Aether Vial, and while he was able to get in some action with Pyrokinesis, it wasn't enough to keep me off three creatures (Bridge tokens) that were able to bring back Sphinx and go off from there.
In this match, I didn't put too much weight on Leyline's effectiveness, as I was far more impressed with Powder's ability to strike away a weak start and get me that L.E.D. and blowout the game from there. I was able to hit a Narcomoeba and Cabal Therapy, which almost surely would have named "Relic of Progenitus," as the already neutered Crypt became irrelevant. It didn't matter in the end, though.
[2-0] (4-0-0)
Round Three: Versus T.E.S.
Game One: This round to me was a measuring stick as to how important my changes were to the sideboard and main. After playing a land and passing, I was able to go deep at the end of his turn with Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian. The following turn I was able to recur two Ichorids and a Nether Shadow. I was, however, "Orim's Chanted" during my upkeep, so I couldn't cast the Dread Return into Sphinx that turn (which almost assuredly would have ended the game). I still managed to get in there for seven damage, and his Ad Nauseam turn two with thirteen life managed to be enough to just win the game.
Heartbreaking, but I felt the deck proved its power here in this matchup. My opponent was stunned at my start.
-2 Faerie Macabre
-2 Serum Powder
-1 Desperate Ravings
+4 Leyline of Sanctity
+1 Ancestor's Chosen
(You'll notice how I decided against bringing in Chancellor here. I'll explain later.)
Game Two: I wasn't able to start the game with a Leyline, but with a hand containing L.E.D., Street Wraith, and Grave-Troll, I decided to keep anyways. I managed to blow out his hand by taking three Dark Rituals with Therapy and ground out the game by attacking with several Ichorids and Zombie tokens over the course of a few turns, capped off by an "Iona on Black."
Game Three: My opponent decided to play first, and his start was relatively harmless: "Mine, Ponder, go." My start was a little different: L.E.D., Ravings, Street Wraith, draw into Grave-Troll. I managed to dig very deep into my deck, and while I assuredly had the turn two win in hand with three Ichorids, three Nether Shadows, Dread Returns, Sphinx, Iona and three Bridges, I hit no Narcomoebas or Cabal Therapies. (At that point, I dug into close to twenty cards + my start.) I lost the game on his second turn - but only because his Ad Nauseam could provide at most nine Storm (18 points of damage), my exact total at the cost of Street Wraith.
Another heart-breaker.
[2-1] (5-2-0)
I am really happy with the changes to the deck I've been working with. I felt as though my Combo matchup was drastically improved with the updated main and sideboard, including Leyline of Sanctity. My confidence wasn't shaken a bit, and the deck impressed a great deal. I could have potentially made Top Eight with a slew of Tempo decks in the 2-1 bracket, but as I mentioned I had to leave early.
Chancellor of the Annex: After testing with Chancellor for a great deal of time, I've come to the conclusion that - at least in my build - it just isn't as good as Leyline against the matchups it is most relevant in. No one realistically is going to sideboard Enchantment removal against you, and it is a complete blowout when it lands. In conjunction with Serum Powder, the card shows up more often than not, and if you start a hand without it, you're apt to hit an L.E.D. and go from there. I just haven't found Chancellor to be as useful more often than not outside of the reveal effect, and although it can be effective when it hits play, I've just found that other D.R. targets like Sphinx are just win-on-the-spot as opposed to stalling the game a turn to give my opponent an answer.
I can't say for certain at this point whether or not it's necessarily "better" than Chancellor, but now that we're running L.E.D., we have the ability to dump our hand if need be. And against most decks who know what they're playing against games two and three, they're more apt to mulligan aggressively to find that hate piece. This is where Leyline shines - especially against Crypt, Bojuka Bog, and Wheel of Sun and Moon. If anything, the Chancellors are now my flex slot in the board which will likely be vacated. The Faerie's are still relevant main, and the split with Powder has improved the deck's stability a great deal - even giving you the option of finding your L.E.D. Game One against a known Storm player.
Ultimately, I was happy with the changes and I am comfortable where the deck stands.
While I don't think I'd ever agree Faerie Macabre is a serious MD consideration, I do like the idea of replacing the Shambling Shells with Serum Powders (That Iona should be the second FKZ for redundancy vs Serum Powder mulligans, IMO).
What I worry about tho' is whether or not you're going to get stuck with more dead cards in your MD that you can't SB out of, because while Leyline of Sanctity may have its moments the problem is that Reanimator is more popular than Dredge and as a result Faerie Macabre and Surgical Extraction have become more common than Tormod's Crypt fwiw. When I ran the Powder/LED/DA lists, I found boarding out the Powder/LED/DA and DR Package for just 15 "grinder" cards like Dakmor/Ghast, Greater Mossdog (feel free to laugh) and Street Wraith (in your case it could be Shambling Shell or Gitaxian Probe) and just raw dogging it was the most consistent answer I had to random SBs.
Chancellor of the Annex is a terrible SB card and an awesome MD card, in the sense it doesn't really address anything in the SB but is always useful in the MD. I agree you never really want to DR Chancellor over the other targets, but the thing is the more targets you have the less likely you have to DR something half ass like Phantasmagorian in clutch situations (and it is bonkers vs. Storm obviously)
Glad to see you picked up the idea and ran with it tho', I always felt Serum Powder had to fit in here some where and just couldn't figure out what to cut because Street Wraith was too good not to run - cutting Shambling Shell and making up for the lossed consistency in keepable hands (if hands with Shambling Shell are even keepable) by being able to mulligan aggressively seems extremely sound in theory
I'm not really too overly concerned though with cards like Faerie Macabre and Surgical Extraction against this deck, as Street Wraith provides a credible, unstoppable means of returning relevant dredgers back to your hand. I've never dropped a tournament game to either of those cards, yet cards like Wheel of Sun and Moon and Bojuka Bog are seeing just as much (if not more) play than Faerie Macabre, so it all really evens out in the end. Most relevant, "game-ending" graveyard hate is targeted towards the player more so than individual cards they target, and this deck as I'm sure you know has the capability of withstanding individual shots to those single targets.
I kept the Faerie Macabres in due in large part to having a leg-up in the Reanimator match Game One. Obviously you have a certain level of flexibility with the Powder/Faerie slots in that respect but I have been very happy with the configuration up to this point. Packing the additional Faeries and Surgical Extractions in the sideboard helps tremendously in those circumstances, as an obvious hit on Show and Tell with Cabal Therapy seriously makes things harder on the Reanimator player to ideally reanimate something cold post-board.
I also think Reanimator being "more popular" than Dredge is not really true depending on your general meta. I think that's a generalization at best, and while Reanimator certainly puts up good numbers, it doesn't mean it's necessarily a more popular choice depending on where you're playing. I give respect to either of those matchups by still playing the Faeries anyways.
As for Chancellor, I do agree it's a terrible sideboard option at this point, and while I've enjoyed his ability when it hits play, rarely has his opening ability been relevant unless its staring down a turn one Relic, which isn't as effective as it once was against us now that we have L.E.D. to drop our hands and go back to work. With Leyline, Relic's first ability is also nullified, so in essence you're getting the same value out of the Leyline as you would a Chancellor because the opponent has to wait a turn to exile it (in this circumstance, they cannot use the first ability).
I just love L.E.D. in this deck, though. It was so sorely lacking a discard outlet in the event of a blowout effect, and I think L.E.D. and Serum Powder - in conjunction with Leyline out of the sideboard - gives this deck some much needed resiliency against relegated hate.
I think Chancellor's "Daze" is always relevant, it's just not as good vs hate as Leyline, but it's still a critical tempo boost in matches like Goblins, Elves, Zoo, Tide, Reanimator etc. and puts them behind on board state for two turns. The card is literally game breaking vs Tide, I went from 40/60 to 60/40 vs that deck on the back of Chancellor alone.
I don't really buy into Leyline being an answer to Relic, the problem with the Leyline and Chancellor comparison is that with Leyline you're down a card in hand and you've lost a turn DDDing to set Relic "back" so they just equalize each other. If you're seeing that much Crypt/Bog tho', then I guess roll with Leyline until you stumble into a metagame that's dedicated to Reanimator - the predominant card in people's SBs fwiw is Faerie Macabre, because of it being uncounterable and instant vs Reanimator.
What I wanted to get across tho' was is that I think you need to consider what you're going to do when you do run across a match up where Leyline is worthless and you're looking at only Faerie/Extraction, because you have to decide just how effective keeping the conditional engines in is if you're going to have SB space for your own Faeries etc.
I'm not inferring Leyline's sole, exclusive utility being geared towards Relic; I'm simply stating its ability is relevant in the instance they do run it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
As for the sideboard, with Chancellor's removal, that opens up four slots better used for other troublesome matchups. Chancellor's initial effect is nice main, but with L.E.D. you now have an incredibly fast engine to match those decks like Elves and Tide Game One where you didn't before. If you're looking to stall with it, any competent oponent will play around it and still be able to match you speed-wise on the combo end of the spectrum. As I mentiomed previously, I play around Faerie and Extraction if I suspect my opponent as being on it. The sided Faeries are there to help with that, and it seems to be working smoothly so far.
If Combo Elves is of concern to me, I'll reconsider Contagion in the sideboard. People seem to hate it, but with four open slots, it's worth testing in my meta. It's also an answer to Scavenging Ooze, which is very relevant ATM.
Sickening Shoal is way better in hating Knights and Oozes than Contagon.
I also think that Soul Spike is way better than Contagion here...
Contagion is only good against "strange" decks like elves.
Sickening Shoal is only relevant against a single target at optimum capability within the first two turns (which is when it would be used). Contagion is able to spread its wealth to several creatures (like Dryad Arbor and Noble Hierarch, respectively) and has the capability of killing a Scavenging Ooze immediately, in addition to killing a turn two Knight (minus a fetch, but I'd bring in Leyline anyway in that matchup as a two of with Serum Powder). I like that it has the ability to cause a mana-crippling effect to opponents, in addition to completely blowing out decks like Combo Elves and decks utilizing a fast setup early with other smaller creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
Most reliable graveyard hate-bears are going to be hitting the table within the first two turns, and Contagion can kill multiple threats while dealing specifically with the important ones alone. Sickening Shoal can kill only one creature reliably, which isn't really all that great when you consider you're probably casting it early enough to deal with a creature with a maximum toughness of two anyways. Contagion hits multiple targets, which is far better under those circumstances.
Quote:I've played Soul Spike before in The Gate and while it can serve a very basic purpose, the card provides massive disadvantage to you where you would probably need those two other Black cards in your hand to do what you need to to win. Soul Spike is relatively terrible, far more situational, and only good against Storm where a player would Ad Nauseam low enough to steal a win, but Leyline just shuts them off completely in that respect or at the very least slows them down immensely.Quote:
Contagion is only good against "strange" decks like elves.
You need the cards to work with, so slowing yourself down like that seems relatively terrible. I understand L.E.D. is here, but that doesn't excuse the fact you'll be down three cards to deal four damage to a single target, thus quadruple 'Time-Walking' your opponent in the process. I can see its utility, but I don't think it's as good as Contagion here. If you give your opponent three to four turns, they will find a Knight, Zenith, or Ooze fast enough to kill you.
@Hollywood— it was a mistake (a potentially huge one) to not board in the four Chancellors there for the DR package you had in the maindeck against your TES opponent. It has pretty much the same effectiveness as Iona once exhumed, but you get a 40% chance of starting the game off with a Force Spike; I'm just not seeing how the Sphinx/Iona/FKZ package is better there. Whether or not Chancellor is (for the most part) redundant against a combo opponent if you've got a singleton Iona is irrelevant here (they very well might be, but I'll get into that later), since you were in fact still playing the Chancellors and had the ability to board into them.
Regarding Serum Powder— I never really liked it in testing, and I still think it's bad for the most part. If you're running it so you can increase the chances of hitting an Eleedee, it only increases the chances of finding it in the next seven cards to 44.2721762% if you whiffed on it the first time (after the initial 39.9499626%). Those aren't odds I'd be willing to go all-in on at all, especially if I've a dredger in hand already, and at that point, you'll be kicking yourself for running it in place of Gitaxian Probe (as you would if you opened Powder and LED). If you're running it in place of Shambling Shell as a pseudo-dredger, you'll still have less of a probability of finding a dredger in the top seven and subsequent top seven (80.9353307% and 85.4148886% respectively) compared to the 86.1409319 opening hand percentage you get for just running fourteen dredgers (although, an 85% chance of finding a 4+ dredger is probably better than an 86% chance of finding a 3+, but meh). In addition, the exiling-the-top-seven characteristic is actually quite relevant, and can be crippling at times. There was an uncomfortable abundance of times where I'd have a 2x Dread Return, Serum Powder hand, and then never find another DR to go off at a reasonable time. You can substitute Bridge from Below for DR in that situation as well. Gitaxian Probe is just a better, more consistent, less volatile option.
Regarding Leyline of Sanctity— I don't like it one bit, especially in this general metagame. That's all I have to say right now. I have more to say, but yeah, it's bad (sorry for the engaging argumentation).
Regarding Chancellor of the Annex— I liked the way Final Fortune put it for the most part, that Chancellor is a good general maindeck option but is less good as a sideboard card because there are more potent matchup-specific options. If you don't find it useful in the maindeck, then cutting it seems perfectly defensible as long as you have a singleton Iona or something (which you do). In the Bloodghast list I was testing (which was the list I posted up on the previous page combined with NecroYawgmoth's suggestion of -1 Dakmor Salvage for +1 maindeck DR target), I didn't really find a use for it since there was obviously no maindeck room, so I cut it. Of course, due to the immense number of uncovered testing ground and potential configurations, I would never rule it out. +4 Chancellor, -4 Sphinx/FKZ maindeck could be correct for all I know (likely not).
Regarding Contagion— I like Sickening Shoal more conceptually, but I've never played with either card yet, so I don't know for sure. Note that a good player will usually leave up a green after casting or GSZing for Scavenging Ooze (fucking hate that card) to blank Dread Return, and if they know that you're running Contagion, they probably won't even activate it EOT so that they'll have at least two green up when they first activate it. I'd also never trust it to kill a KotR. I like the situation you described, completely tempoing them out by kill off all of their mana dorks, but Chancellor reveal does pretty much the same thing.
Speaking of that Bloodghast list, I'm having a really hard time finding what the optimal card in the sideboard flex slot is. Since the Ghast/Salvage and LED/DR packages are seven-eight cards each, you can't really fit in a four-of without either making things incredibly dis-synergistic or boarding out Gitaxian Probe.
Also, Hollywood, if you ever have time, I'd be down for some general testing on MWS. Just PM me or something if you're interested.
Lastly (and this isn't being directed at anyone, this is just a random thing I'd like to say), Manaless Dredge is definitely not a 'noob' deck. It might be once optimized lists surface and more and more standardized lines of play come to fruition (basically, once more hours are put into it by many people), but in its current state, it's definitely not. It's not a super incredibly challenging deck to play, but it doesn't just play itself.
I don't really see this as being a mistake here. Lion's Eye Diamond provides an incredible amount of speed, and it was the reason I easily won the second game and almost won the third game if not for a narrow set of circumstances benefiting my opponent after going through nearly half my deck on my turn two. The reason I left them out was to test the power of Leyline in this matchup, which coincidentally would have shored up that win Game Three if I had drawn into it to start the game with the L.E.D. in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau
Chancellor's effect, while attractive in the Combo match, doesn't seal the game for good by any means. It's a card measured by an opponent's level of skill, and most players whom I've played and tested against (i.e. the Hatfields, NoVA players, etc.) have easily adjusted to his ability and played around it without any problems. Instants like Lightning Bolt and Brainstorm can be easily played with with the ability in effect, which in turn breaks the effect and still allows your opponent to drop Crypt or whatever else they have turn one against you. I just feel as though it's a card that gives your opponent options, where Leyline is a concrete-based game-changer and forces your opponent into finding answers or risk facing the consequences. I have played both variations, and I have found Leyline to be strictly better under those circumstances.
It is by no means "bad." In fact it's the complete opposite in my experience.
Now that the deck has lost some of its consistency with the absence of four dredgers and the addition of L.E.D., there is no reason to assume two Serum Powders would completely warp your entire start if you feel as though you can improve your situation before the game begins. Unlike before, I have options at the beginning of the game. I understand your interest in the percentages here, but the fact is you haven't taken into account variance with starting hands where Powder could be extraordinarily useful, as explicitly defined by my Game Two against Goblins where I was able to win the game - and match - because of it.Quote:
Regarding Serum Powder— I never really liked it in testing, and I still think it's bad for the most part. If you're running it so you can increase the chances of hitting an Eleedee, it only increases the chances of finding it in the next seven cards to 44.2721762% if you whiffed on it the first time (after the initial 39.9499626%). Those aren't odds I'd be willing to go all-in on at all, especially if I've a dredger in hand already, and at that point, you'll be kicking yourself for running it in place of Gitaxian Probe (as you would if you opened Powder and LED). If you're running it in place of Shambling Shell as a pseudo-dredger, you'll still have less of a probability of finding a dredger in the top seven and subsequent top seven (80.9353307% and 85.4148886% respectively) compared to the 86.1409319 opening hand percentage you get for just running fourteen dredgers (although, an 85% chance of finding a 4+ dredger is probably better than an 86% chance of finding a 3+, but meh). In addition, the exiling-the-top-seven characteristic is actually quite relevant, and can be crippling at times. There was an uncomfortable abundance of times where I'd have a 2x Dread Return, Serum Powder hand, and then never find another DR to go off at a reasonable time. You can substitute Bridge from Below for DR in that situation as well. Gitaxian Probe is just a better, more consistent, less volatile option.
I have tested it incessantly and have found it to an invaluable resource that gives you stability where it was lost with the bonus of having the ability to begin the game with an explosive start. If you begin the game with multiples of a key card that contains a Powder, you probably weren't doing anything relevant with your Shambling Shell to begin with so either taking the "keep" or giving yourself a chance to get another hand is completely worth two slots relegated to improving your situation. It can never be worse, as you don't have to reveal the card if you don't want to.
I just disagree wholeheartedly. In fact, with L.E.D. present, that slot in my board will forever be a staple now that I have a blatant, unexpected, and efficient means of protecting my hand, my life total, as well as my graveyard from a variety of circumstances ranging from Storm to Burn.Quote:
Regarding Leyline of Sanctity— I don't like it one bit, especially in this general metagame. That's all I have to say right now. I have more to say, but yeah, it's bad (sorry for the engaging argumentation).
No one is going to know you're running out Contagion Game Two, let alone a Sickening Shoal, and even if they do, it doesn't change the fact that if it's hard-cast on turn two, you can kill it, or if it's "Zenithed" into play turn three, it's killed too. An opponent will probably only be able to get it into play with a lucky start of Zenith turn one for Arbor into hard-casting it turn two, which is already unlikely given it as being a singleton or one-of in most G/w/x boards. By the time turn four rolls around, the card is relatively useless against you if you can kill them or accumulate threats before they do anything relevant against you.Quote:
Regarding Contagion— I like Sickening Shoal more conceptually, but I've never played with either card yet, so I don't know for sure. Note that a good player will usually leave up a green after casting or GSZing for Scavenging Ooze (fucking hate that card) to blank Dread Return, and if they know that you're running Contagion, they probably won't even activate it EOT so that they'll have at least two green up when they first activate it. I'd also never trust it to kill a KotR. I like the situation you described, completely tempoing them out by kill off all of their mana dorks, but Chancellor reveal does pretty much the same thing.
Faerie Macabre is no better than two Leylines which at minimum can stop Bojuka Bog in its tracks and allow you flexibility with some sideboard slots to bring in the second and potentially third games.
Sure, I'm always around and up for it.Quote:
Also, Hollywood, if you ever have time, I'd be down for some general testing on MWS. Just PM me or something if you're interested.
@KevinTrudeauQuote:
+4 Chancellor, -4 Sphinx/FKZ maindeck could be correct for all I know (likely not).
I don't think that this is a really good idea, you just need the "ability" to flip your deck from time to time. About boardngs, I most likely board out the Salvage / Ghast Package because I cant see other effective things to board out. I think pack the Bloodghast Pack out, for 4 Chancellor and fill the other 3 Slots with whatever you like. I really really <3 Ghasts, but they are really not needed most of the time, cuz you board them out anyways, and getting them after a Sphinx-Dredge is overkill 98% of the time. You can Therapy Sphinx for Tokens and Dredge again with her if you have another DR, or just already have enough Tokens. and you have Moebas which will transform into Zombie Tokens. [backed up by too many Ichorids and Shadows next turn] I don't see any situation where you would need Ghasts there.
When I am at it: for the remaining 3 slots... You have any news about the ""if I'm dredging three, I'm losing anyway"-axiom"? =P maybe I should fill up this Slots with Shambling Shells, but I rather test out flex cards until someone can prove that the 13th,14th,15th dredger are better here.
For what would you use te "new" Sideboard-space? [Assuming that you don't play LEDs in the board.] 4 LLotV or Surgical, 4 Sickening Shoal, 1 Elesh, 1 Iona, 1 Blightsteel leaves the 4 Chancellor slots open. I could Play 4 White LL as an addition against Combo or 4 Soul Spike / Contagion against maverick. i don't really see any other options atm. There is also the Option of 4 Surgical and 4 LLotv but this seem like a huge overkill. =P
@HollywoodIF they have G mana left via first turn GSZed Arbor or 1st turn Hierarch, they can just cast Ooze with 3 Mana in play, and Contagion won't harm it. Also we are effective 1 Turn slower because we need to DDD. Your list is the exception here, because you play LEDS main, but that still doesn't change the fact that you can't Contagion kill a 2nd turn Ooze when the GW Player has 3 Mana... Also... some lists play 2-3 Oozes.Quote:
No one is going to know you're running out Contagion Game Two, let alone a Sickening Shoal, and even if they do, it doesn't change the fact that if it's hard-cast on turn two, you can kill it, or if it's "Zenithed" into play turn three, it's killed too. An opponent will probably only be able to get it into play with a lucky start of Zenith turn one for Arbor into hard-casting it turn two, which is already unlikely given it as being a singleton or one-of in most G/w/x boards.
That's exactly my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
In the scenario that your opponent actually has the first turn Zenith into Arbor, they would have to draw naturally into a Scavenging Ooze - which isn't all that likely. In that instance, it wouldn't matter even if you did have Sickening Shoal because you would be losing two cards anyway and a brick off your discarded dredger would effectively be devastating to you as waiting two turns and giving your opponent plenty of time to find an answer is definitely not good.
Contagion, however, allows you to cripple their "mana dork" mana supply and kill a hard-cast turn two Ooze (with no Zenith turn one), or a turn three Zenith into Ooze (with no mana left over). Given the likelihood of the latter two scenarios, I'd much rather have that overall flexibility. Sickening Shoal is also more situational, as exiling a Cabal Therapy, Nether Shadow, another Shoal, or Golgari Thug will not be able to do the job under the circumstances you've provided. That's potentially sixteen cards that would wiff in killing Ooze, and with an even lighter Dredge count (12), exiling a critical Stinkweed Imp or Street Wraith (so unappealing) would just seem terrible for you anyways.
Contagion lets you exile any Black card and always provides at least -4/-2 to any individual creature, which under the circumstances I've provided would be more than reasonable and more likely overall. If your opponent has the nuts with a T1->Zenith, T2->Ooze+Mana, then it doesn't matter anyway (unless they opt to exile your dredger immediately, in which case you can kill it).
I can't see your logic here because Sickening Shoal does exactly the same in all 3 situations. If you have the Situation where you can 2 for 1, like 1st turn Zenith into Arbor, 2nd Turn Hierarch or Vice Versa they are wasting 1 whole turn, in which we could easily do more than enough to win, regardless of Contagion, don't you agree?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
To be honest, your logic fails here also. This is an rather strange comparsion. Another Shoal, A Shadow or a Thug will give -2. Exactly like Contagion does, so only Cabal Therapy is valid here. So it's 4 cards and not 16. And even Cabal Therapy can kill their mana dork if its needed, so it's only 4 cards which matter against Ooze.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Contagion will also fail to kill a Knight ~80% of the time IMO.
I do agree, that we will lose ANYWAY, regardless if we have Contagion or Shoal if they have the nut-draw, but I can't see any of your arguments proving that Contagion is better than Shoal.
Against Elves... 1-2 Elesh Norn is still enough and still needs less space than a "narrow" card like Contagion. ANY Dredge-Player should play at least 1 Elesh in their 75 anyways. There is also Iona, which wrecks Elf-Combo, and Chancellor which slows them down 1 turn. This all should be enough.
Uh, no because if you're claiming that both function the exact same way under the exact same set of circumstances, Contagion is strictly better because it has the ability to kill more than one creature if need be.Quote:
I can't see your logic here because Sickening Shoal does exactly the same in all 3 situations. If you have the Situation where you can 2 for 1, like 1st turn Zenith into Arbor, 2nd Turn Hierarch or Vice Versa they are wasting 1 whole turn, in which we could easily do more than enough to win, regardless of Contamination, don't you agree?
See, this where players like yourself don't see the importance of what an opponent is trying to do or why they decided to keep the hand that they did. That isn't "wasting" a whole turn - that's called setting you up for the knockout punch the next turn with something relevant. Very relevant. Sickening Shoal - in that instance - would only be able to kill one creature, where as Contagion (and not "Contamination," as you put it), can kill multiples at one time. You boarded them in for the purpose of either killing a relevant creature(s) or generating a huge amount of tempo, which is far more multilaterally useful that one card that only trades - with one card.
You're giving this deck too much credit as far as "easily being able to do enough to win" in one turn. I certainly hope you don't go 'all-in' on an opponent if you're absolutely incapable of assessing their options - as well as yours - first. This is where blowouts occur, and ones certainly not always in your favor. Manaless Dredge has the explosive capability of being able to reel off quick wins with impressive hands, but the fact is unless you're playing L.E.D. into Ravings (in conjunction with Street Wraith), your level of explosiveness goes down drastically.
You want to be cautiously optimistic, but at the same time not mercilessly throwing your hand away for the sake of throwing your hand away, because according to this statement -- you seem to be under the impression that no matter what form of acceleration an opponent presents him or herself with to start the game, you automatically decide to go all-in at that point because your opponent is "wasting time" setting up their turns up, where with Contagion, you have the opportunity aside from Sickening Shoal to cripple their productivity, perhaps setting them back two to three turns in the process.Quote:
they are wasting 1 whole turn, in which we could easily do more than enough to win
My logic is pretty straightforward here, and I think you're just completely missing the overall utility of a card that actually has the ability to kill more than one creature at any given time, whereas Sickening Shoal kills only one creature in the instance being able to kill Knight or Ooze becomes invalid. Two for two is straight-up better than two for one; pretty easy to figure out.Quote:
To be honest, your logic fails here also. This is an rather strange comparsion. Another Shoal, A Shadow or a Thug will give -2. Exactly like Contagion does, so only Cabal Therapy is valid here. So it's 4 cards and not 16. And even Cabal Therapy can kill their mana dork if its needed, so it's only 4 cards which matter against Ooze.
It is sixteen (16) cards because those sixteen cards are incapable of killing an Ooze with a land available to pump it, which is what I was referring to.
I think that number is incredibly inflated, and while I do tend to lean more on the side of agreeing with you that Contagion probably won't kill it, I am more concerned about Ooze in my build aside from yours, because I run Leyline of Sanctity (with L.E.D.) and Bojuka Bog means nothing to me. I am more concerned about killing a "rushed out" Ooze than Knight, and I am a firm believer that opponents will retard their opening hands with some form of hate and a mediocre start otherwise to try and offset the threat of being blown out quickly, which is where Contagion is better than Shoal because you have the choice of what to exile, rather than not having a situational start where Shoal and Therapy are your only two Black cards in hand.Quote:
Contamination will also fail to kill a Knight ~80% of the time IMO.
That's kind of awkward.
Contagion is more multilateral in more matchups than simply Maverick and has the ability to potentially set an opponent back who's running Elves or a similarly fast, aggressive start. Sickening Shoal is isolated to one target, and I just don't see your argument why relegating one sideboard card to hitting one creature where you could bring in four other cards that have the ability to kill more than one creature - including the most sought after one - as being a suboptimal choice.Quote:
I do agree, that we will lose ANYWAY, regardless if we have Contagion or Shoal if they have the nut-draw, but I can't see any of your arguments proving that Contamination is better than Shoal.
That makes little sense, if any.
I think it's funny how you're referring to Contagion (I know you'll get it right sooner or later, hence the hyperlink attachments) as being "narrow," when you're talking about Elesh Norn who is about as narrow a target there is. It doesn't win a game on the spot like Sphinx or Zealot would, is strictly inferior to Iona in most circumstances, and does nothing but open itself to any form of spot removal in the format. Sphinx, Zealot, Iona, Kelpie, etc. all progress the game in favor of you winning it immediately, where something abhorrently irrelevant like Elesh Norn does nothing but force you to spend a Dread Return on it, rush out a slower attack (nothing with haste), get it Plowed or Pathed, and then run into creatures now capable of killing your attackers.Quote:
Against Elves... 1-2 Elesh Norn is still enough and still needs less space than a "narrow" card like Contamination. ANY Dredge-Player should play at least 1 Elesh in their 75 anyways. There is also Iona, which wrecks Elf-Combo, and Chancellor which slows them down 1 turn. This all should be enough.
That not only seems suboptimal, but if you're relegating a sideboard slot to thinking Elesh Norn will 'speed up' your kills, then you're mistaken. Lion's Eye Diamond already speeds the deck up faster by a turn (as Kevin pointed out), so I see no reason - in Manaless Dredge - to opening it up to removal without having a 'CiP' effect that wins on the spot. Elesh Norn is just a bit too slow against Elves unless you get it into play by turn two, in which case they would have gone off on you by then.
Chancellor is a whole other story, and I'm not about to get into that.
The discussion is getting some high valid points on both sides, I don't think ad hominem is needed. He got it right already and you quoted him on that, what's the point of this statement?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Everyone makes writing mistakes from time to time, specially when english isn't our native language.
He mentioned the word "Contamination" willfully four times throughout his entire post, well-spoken and easy to understand. Please don't speak on his behalf; I can tell when someone speaks English well and there were no grammatical errors as far as card names are concerned. Necro is smart enough to speak for himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
Thank you.
Not saying he isn't smart enough, I just don't like the tone of your statement, whether about Necro or any other person. There's no need for that kind of thing, your ideas are great, but speaking like that diminishes your reliability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
As I said, he wrote it right some times, and you know which card he was talking about. If you were so worried about other people not understanding, you could say that in some other way, that's all.
As far as I can tell, this isn't a private conversation, I'm free to talk if I'm willing to.
You're right. I should be a little less personally argumentative in that respect. I apologize. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui